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Travellers jailed for attacking Gardai

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    #332
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Thats just whataboutery. Do children from settled families face those because they are from settled families. Do they face it to the same extent?

    Sometimes, sure. Travellers can bully too, y'know. Children are bullied for all sorts of reasons. Can you find any statistics which back up the theory that traveller children are victims of bullying any more than settled children?

    My daughter herself was bullied by a traveller child - quite severely. My sister was too. Does that mean I believe all traveller children are bullies? No, but nor does it mean I believe they are any more likely to be bullied than bully themselves. The school went far easier on that child than they did on another settled girl who was accused of the same type of bullying a few months later. One was suspended and the other was not, yet both had a history of disruptive behaviour.

    We need to get out of this mindset of declaring them all victims of circumstance and start an honest discussion about how both the settled community and the travelling community can work together to even up the score a bit.
    Travellers get more than enough help with education (financial help, teaching assistants, school transport, more leniancy than is given to settled families in relation to absenteeism) and so it seems to me, you can lead a horse to water etc., but there has to be give on both sides to make any real difference.


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    #333
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I think its a massive problem in this country that huge numbers do have the opinion they all need to be put down.

    How many? You are now trying to claim that lots of people want to do something while trying to say everyone is wrong for trying to claim something about other people.

    If there was 80% unemployment, few people doing the LC and a higher proportion of domestic violence and crime in Cork would the best solution be to ignore it?


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    #334
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Bullying, Harassment, Racism, Isolation

    Are they a different race?


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    #335
    corner of hells
    Registered Users Posts: 8,364 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    I work with travellers from time to time in a social care setting , briefly I worked with a small group about 15 years ago and one of the observations we noticed was that gradually travellers were starting to very slowly integrate , one of the more notable things was that younger generations were taking an interest slowly in outside of their own community.

    Teens and young adults were becoming interested in mobile phones, games , clothing and sport and realising indirectly that education was route towards improvement.
    Young married couples were no longer having large numbers of kids and kids were staying in
    School longer.

    More recently Ive worked with young travellers who were soldiers , chefs etc , I know my examples hardly give definitive examples but from what I can see individual travellers are now starting to integrate into society.

    As far as I know every primary school has a teacher who is sort of like a liason officer for travellers and the school.

    Don't get me wrong and think Im under any illusion about the myriad of issues that still exist , I could give you examples of incidents that happened to me alone that would leave you grey in the face , but I can stand up say there has been clear improvements.


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    #336
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Grayson wrote: »
    So you're saying that travellers don't actually care about their own children?

    There are a lot of parents who don't give a damn about their offspring, shock horror some of them happen to be travellers.


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    #337
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    The phrase "ethnic group" in relation to travellers actually bugs me. They're not an ethnic group, they're just a class of white Irish people. By travellers adopting the use of the phrase "ethnic group" they seem to give themselves some sort of superficial rights to live outside of the law and outside of society. If you argue this point or try to hold them accountable for their actions, you're classed as a racist or bigot and that's simply not true.


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    #338
    To Elland Back
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭To Elland Back


    Grayson wrote: »
    So you're saying that travellers don't actually care about their own children?

    They undoubtedly love their children as much as anybody but they don't (in my opinion) have the skills to rear them healthily. The big thing is that they don't seem to care that they don't possess these skills and will cling on to the way they choose to live their life rather than address it.


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    #339
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,025 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Omackeral wrote: »
    Are they a different race?

    They are in my view an ethnic minority.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #340
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    They are in my view an ethnic minority.

    Can I call people from the Gaeltacht an ethnic minority? I know a girl who's dad is a Traveller and her mam is settled. Is she mixed race?


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    #341
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,025 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    eviltwin wrote: »
    And not one of those reasons justifies keeping a child out of education. Education is one of the best things you can give your child, anyone who would prevent their child getting a good education without a very compelling reason is a bad parent.

    I think it depends on the severity and also maybe one of those reasons alone doesnt justify but more than one might. If my child was subjected to severe harassment, bullying, racism and/or isolation I would consider keeping the child away.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #342
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I think it depends on the severity and also maybe one of those reasons alone doesnt justify but more than one might. If my child was subjected to severe harassment, bullying, racism and/or isolation I would consider keeping the child away.

    I imagine you would keep your child home and make an effort to address the issue with the school with the intention of sending them back. Or you would look for an alternative school if possible. At the very least I'm sure you would make an effort to home school your child and give them some sort of education. I doubt the majority of travellers with children at home do any of the above.


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    #343
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,739 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Isnt it?

    How do you know this? Why is there "sides"?

    It's not. I've seen it.

    I understand that what I've seen does not encapsulate the entire situation but it's all I can submit here.

    I'm formulating and expressing opinions based on my experiences. Experiences that I will not detail for the sake of my anonymity and my natural sense of caution. I genuinely apologise if this seems unfair or disingenuous.

    There are no fixed or constant "sides" in life but in the context and limits of this thread, this conversation there are. In this thread I've noticed a side entrenched in the view Travellers can do no wrong, I've noticed a side entrenched in the view that most of their problems are caused by everyone else, I've noticed those on the most dangerous side of all namely the one that believes all Travellers should be put down.

    I've noticed those on the side of logic, common sense and reason. I humbly like to think of myself as being broadly on that "side".


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    #344
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,739 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    They are in my view an ethnic minority.

    Nonsense.

    They are no more an ethnic minority than Kerrymen are.


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    #345
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,025 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    DeadHand wrote: »
    It's not. I've seen it.

    I understand that what I've seen does not encapsulate the entire situation but it's all I can submit here.

    I'm formulating and expressing opinions based on my experiences. Experiences that I will not detail for the sake of my anonymity and my natural sense of caution. I genuinely apologise if this seems unfair or disingenuous.

    There are no fixed or constant "sides" in life but in the context and limits of this thread, this conversation there are. In this thread I've noticed a side entrenched in the view Travellers can do no wrong, I've noticed a side entrenched in the view that most of their problems are caused by everyone else, I've noticed those on the most dangerous side of all namely the one that believes all Travellers should be put down.

    I've noticed those on the side of logic, common sense and reason. I humbly like to think of myself as being broadly on that "side".

    Right ok. So you've seen a few things but you cant tell us what they are. Ok so. I have no idea how that is supposed to back your point up at all.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #346
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,739 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Right ok. So you've seen a few things but you cant tell us what they are. Ok so. I have no idea how that is supposed to back your point up at all.

    Everyday, life long experiences of interacting with Travellers- their good, their bad, their ugly.

    You've not produced anything to back up your beliefs and seem, in fact, far more entrenched and dogmatic in yours than I am in mine.


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    #347
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    DeadHand wrote: »
    Everyday, life long experiences of interacting with Travellers- their good, their bad, their ugly.

    You've not produced anything to back up your beliefs and seem, in fact, far more entrenched and dogmatic in yours than I am in mine.

    Unless it is his experience that people want to put travellers down. Then it is valid.


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    #348
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,025 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    DeadHand wrote: »
    Everyday, life long experiences of interacting with Travellers- their good, their bad, their ugly.

    You've not produced anything to back up your beliefs and seem, in fact, far more entrenched and dogmatic in yours than I am in mine.

    Not at all. I have only taken apart arguments in this thread.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #349
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,739 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I have only taken apart arguments in this thread.

    Not from what I've read.


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    #350
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    yipeeeee wrote: »
    You know these settled sites?

    Do they pay for electricity and gas etc?
    does someone in a council house pay electricity gas and so on, or do they get an allowance?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #351
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    end of the road wrote: »
    does someone in a council house pay electricity gas and so on, or do they get an allowance?


    Depends on their status they will get fuel allowance and other benefits.

    Some have been known to tap in onto light poles and such and some didn't make it to see the connection if you get me;)

    I work full time and have to pay my way and strugle away to try and make a life for me and my family but it is quite hard with all the cuts and tax hikes and new taxes they keep coming up with.


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    #352
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    OK, you were fortunate enough to have caring parents who could afford to send you to a "good" school. But did you go to a private school after an entrance exam at age four? Because this is the problem's genesis. If children do not regularly attend National school, and get encouragement at home to study and behave, how can they hope to take an entrance exam for any school? You cannot claim that free 2nd level education schools are so substandard that every student is doomed !
    Perhaps we do need more programmes to encourage traveller parents to ensure their children attend school and succeed, but then, perhaps if we as a society enforced the laws already in place, such programmes may not be needed.
    we do enforce the laws that are in place, evidence has to be gathered though to ensure a fair trial and that people can put their side of the story across. no evidence, nothing can be done.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #353
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    @joeytheparrott

    If Travellers are their own race seen as you said they can suffer from racism from (I assume) White Irish people, then is the child of a settled person and a Traveller mixed race?


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    #354
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    eviltwin wrote: »
    In what way do you think a child from a Traveller family would be made to feel unwelcome and rejected?
    do you really need that to be answered? you can easily figure it out

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #355
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    end of the road wrote: »
    does someone in a council house pay electricity gas and so on, or do they get an allowance?
    Yes, as a council house tenant, I have to pay all of the bils that come in. What would give you the impression that council house tenants don't have to pay their bills?


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    #356
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    end of the road wrote: »
    do you really need that to be answered? you can easily figure it out

    Is it part of the CSO plot against them?


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    #357
    Mint Aero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,570 ✭✭✭Mint Aero


    Cartoon_Head wrote: »
    It looks like the small minority of bad apples in the Traveller community is giving the rest a bad name again....

    "About 20 to 30 Travellers had gathered around the officers at this point and the two gardaí decided to withdraw"


    Yes, a small minority in that halting site giving all the others a bad name. Sounds more like the vast majority that were there.


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    #358
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    end of the road wrote: »
    do you really need that to be answered? you can easily figure it out

    Yeah, they are open to bullying just like any other child. Its not exclusively a traveller issue and not an excuse for denying their kids an education.


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    #359
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    pablo128 wrote: »
    Yes, as a council house tenant, I have to pay all of the bils that come in. What would give you the impression that council house tenants don't have to pay their bills?

    Travellers have exemptions. I live in a council estate. Every one regardless of status has to pay for private bin collections. My next door neighbours who are travellers have a council waste truck swing by every week to pick up their rubbish. They don't pay a cent for it.


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    #360
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    DeadHand wrote: »
    A tiny, tiny minority consisting of the utterly despicable truly believe this.

    A slightly larger minority may express foolish sentiments like this out of their own inarticulation and frustration.

    A frustration born of the appalling behaviour of a large section of the Travelling community.
    bull****. they say it because they mean it. i can be angry about people doing something, i don't call for them to be "put down" because i was brought up with proper morals

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #361
    wandatowell
    Registered Users Posts: 8,435 ✭✭✭wandatowell


    end of the road wrote: »
    does someone in a council house pay electricity gas and so on, or do they get an allowance?

    Answering a question with another question isn't really how it works.


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