Sexy street harassment

Ficheall

denhaagenite wrote: »

Yes, the very first time I was walking in a suburb close to UCC as a teenager and a guy shouted "Get your tits out" from a car window.

I get "get a haircut/job" hurled at me on a regular basis, and occasionally eggs, by people passing in cars, so I can sympathise.

denhaagenite

Ficheall wrote: »

I get "get a haircut/job" hurled at me on a regular basis, and occasionally eggs, by people passing in cars, so I can sympathise.

It's true, some people are awful scuts, I really don't understand what they get out of it. I don't think it's really even got anything to do with attraction or sex, I just think that at the time, being a child, it was pretty terrible- I was walking home from my nans house ffs.

Pixie Chief

masculinist wrote: »

How was it not relevant ? You felt harassed. I also felt harassed and disrespected in a meaningful way. I am sure lots of chauvinist misandrists of both sexes thought Phoarrrr lucky guy etc. Personally I feel sick at the memory of some of this. That my girlfriend might have heard someone say through ther grapevine I was groped and it was all my fault etc . That to complain means there is something wrong with me as I dont live up to the ''always up for it with zero standards'' stereotype. There is no excuse. Women do not respect male boundaries if they find him attractive. Thats a reality.

I thanked your post earlier for precisely this reason. It made it clear that you have higher standards for choosing mates than what they look like - no objectifying of women here. I felt the post had a 'I hear ya' or 'I can relate to what you're saying, here's my experience' kinda vibe. I can't see anything wrong in what you've said. Being groped is a horrible experience for anyone....*shudders*

Ficheall

denhaagenite wrote: »

I do think there's a much higher chance of it happening if drink has been taken, but a certain subset of people will do it regardless.

But that subset is a subset of "assholes", as opposed to a particular gender, I'm sure we'll all agree. It's just curious that this thread has devolved into a men vs women debate, when the blame could just as "logically" have been laid at drunk peoples' door. I know that's not quite what the video in the op was edited to reflect, but since we're working on primarily anecdotal evidence from posters now, it's surely just as relevant..

Pixie Chief

Ficheall wrote: »

Possibly. I was just wondering if it might have the same relevance as being male. Some people are always going to be assholes - drunk or sober, male or female. It just seemed that the majority of anecdotes involved less than sober people, so I wanted to be sure we were lambasting the right half of the population.

We sure are - the entitlement culture half that thinks they can own people or be horrible to them in some way with little or no provocation - regardless of what their sexuality might be

Pixie Chief

masculinist wrote: »

This goes both ways. I have been groped by females without warning, not all of them attractive either. If they had any potential for being attractive , they sure lost it when they groped me.

Ficheall wrote: »

I get "get a haircut/job" hurled at me on a regular basis, and occasionally eggs, by people passing in cars, so I can sympathise.

I'm not sure I see the difference between these two posts - both men sharing an experience related to the topic in hand. The second was perhaps more overtly sympathetic but genuinely cannot see why one merited a more aggressive reply than the other?

denhaagenite

Ficheall wrote: »

But that subset is a subset of "assholes", as opposed to a particular gender, I'm sure we'll all agree. It's just curious that this thread has devolved into a men vs women debate, when the blame could just as "logically" have been laid at drunk peoples' door. I know that's not quite what the video in the op was edited to reflect, but since we're working on primarily anecdotal evidence from posters now, it's surely just as relevant..

I have witnessed a fair amount of harassment/ groping from women while drunk, but tbh never sober, and it's really more the threatening or intimidating nature of the behaviour is what concerns me most. I am generalising here, but I think it's probably more likely that I would feel physically threatened by man (drunk or sober) than my husband would feel physically threatened by a woman.

denhaagenite

Pixie Chief wrote: »

I'm not sure I see the difference between these two posts - both men sharing an experience related to the topic in hand. The second was perhaps more overtly sympathetic but genuinely cannot see why one merited a more aggressive reply than the other?

The first was directly in response to my earlier post regarding the prevalence of drunk incidents vs sober incidents, he was trying to drag it back to men vs women. I never disputed that it happened to men so the response was not relevant to what I had said. I was just outlining that.

Pixie Chief

denhaagenite wrote: »

The first was directly in response to my earlier post regarding the prevalence of drunk incidents vs sober incidents, he was trying to drag it back to men vs women. I never disputed that it happened to men so the response was not relevant. I was just outlining that.

Thank you for clarifying! I wouldn't have interpreted what he said in that way at all so couldn't see the issue.

denhaagenite

Pixie Chief wrote: »

Thank you for clarifying! I wouldn't have interpreted what he said in that way at all so couldn't see the issue.

I think clarifying is really important in this thread. I think a discussion like this needs to be had but it's been dragged off topic so many times- men vs women, women asking for it, some kind of women but not me blablabla. Nobody should be subject to any kind of street harassment or harassment/ assault on a night out and while I don't think it's necessary to donate money to a charity for it, it's really foolish to deny that it's happening to both men and women.

A good conversation, and listening to another's point of view rather than arguing because of a misunderstanding or just for the sake of it, can be really informative and can create more of an empathic nature in all of us.

gozunda

masculinist wrote: »

...Often Misogyny threads try to paint an extremely one sided picture of women as helpless victims with no agency over their own lives. Many women who are doing the whole strong independent woman thing [just like any man who leaves the nest and becomes a mature responsible adult] absolutely hate that notion. We all get harassment in various forms. You cant walk down Grafton Street without being 'harassed' by beggars , junkies and down on their luck homeless people. However most of us must realise they have enough problems of their own without needing to YouTube them with an axe to grind.

I agree that both men and woman may be targets of street harassment. However such behaviour can have significantly different consequences. Something everyone should keep in mind. I believe another poster hit the nail on the head with regard to how such behaviour can case very real fear and intimidation. I don't believe that the majority of men even where they are subject to street harassment would necessarily be affected to the same degree.

Pixie Chief wrote: »

..

Fear exists because it should. There are many places in the world today where women are only commodities to be traded - sold into sexual slavery, stoned to death because they got raped and not permitted the same rights and freedoms as men. I'm not aware of a single culture, now or at any time in the past where men were in that position. It has taken a very long time to get past the 'blame the victim of rape' mentality even in western countries...if we are entirely over it? Rape of women is a common occurrence, rape of men less so. Do men in Ireland going out at night worry about how provocative what they are wearing might be, make arrangements for going out and coming home so that you're never left alone, avoid taxi companies they don't know etc etc? Not a smartass point, genuinely a question? Even in more rural towns? I very rarely get harassed during the day (too ugly?) but frequently have lots of positive interactions with both sexes. At night, I go out with himself (and usually a fair group of lads) so harassment isn't an issue and good times had by all. I'm always all too well aware though, that it wasn't always like this for me and if I made slightly different choices it wouldn't be. I'm not free to socialise at will without fear of consequences.....common consequences. For me, this is why I would object to overt sexual attention from a stranger. It reminds me that there are men, in every country, all round the world, who think that objectifying women as sexual objects, thinking that women should submit sexually to them and forcing women to have sex with them is acceptable.....and I don't know whether the guy making references to me right now is one of them. Right enough, it's only a percentage of all the men in the world but it's a substantial percentage (and possibly growing?)

I prefer to fight the battle by appreciating men rather than denigrating them when no evidence exists to suggest that an individual man is in any way one of those. I like men and a great many things about them. Do I laugh when some of the guys make jokes about getting into the kitchen (or insert other stereotypical woman thing about being whipped/periods/hysteria/womans place - I usually return it with equally stereotypical toilet seat/housework/whatever guy thing)? Yes. Because it's a joke. If they meant it, it wouldn't be a joke. I know they don't mean it because I know them. If a random guy wandered up to me and asked me what I was doing out of the kitchen, then that's a bridge too far. Some guys need to step out of there dark ages and learn to control themselves. Equally some women need to develop some manners and appreciation (and sometimes a sense of humour) for all the great guys out there because we are in danger of turning one thing into another. We can't treat those two things as separate issues, they are interlinked.

Pixie Chief

I honestly don't think it's about men vs women although it often looks like it. I think the trouble is different styles of communication between the sexes and their interpretations of those communications makes it look like it is though....at the root of many relationship issues too, I should think.

Pixie Chief

gozunda wrote: »

I agree that both men and woman may be targets of street harassment. However such behaviour can have significantly different consequences. Something everyone should keep in mind. I believe another poster hit the nail on the head with regard to how such behaviour can case very real fear and intimidation. I don't believe that the majority of men even where they are subject to street harassment would necessarily be affected to the same degree.

Great post and what you say I would deem to be absolutely true. I don't believe either that the majority of men would be affected in the same way. I don't experience it anymore because I limited my freedoms so that I wouldn't have to - I'm perfectly happy with my life but it shouldn't have been forced on me by the behaviour of others. BUT I do know a guy who was abused as a child, for example, and for him it's no less difficult. Shouting 'show us your tits' might be ignored by one woman, laughed at by another and cause terror in a woman who had experienced rape/sexual assault/frequent verbal sexual assaults previously. I'd imagine how offensive/threatening it is goes up with frequency of exposure too. We all experience and respond to the world differently. Interpersonal relationships are founded on knowing the others boundaries and you have to take a personal responsibility for that regardless of sex, colour or creed. If you feel the urge to communicate anything other than the most banal of social niceties to someone you don't know, quash it. If you are overwhelmed by a need to demonstrate your attraction for complete strangers by shouting about their sexual organs/bodies or groping them and can't control it, then seek therapy. Take personal responsibility for how your actions affect others...like the grown ups have to.

tiger55

nm wrote: »

Definitely not as much as that.

There are probably a fair percent of the people in that video would have passed some comment or other no matter who walked past too.

It will get worse soon enough.

Boris Pecker

The guy (at 1min10sec) who was supposed to say: "Good day. I just seen a thousand dollars".

To me it looked like he tried to hand her something and when she wouldn't take it, sounded like he then said: "Hey lookie there. You just seen a thousand dollars".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

fergus1001

This topic is a quagmire I'm a out a here

DoYouEvenLift

I think it is often about men vs women because sometimes it feels like you can't bring one up without someone retorting with "but what about men/women?" and often feminists seem to be the ones instigating that from any conversations I've had about men's issues in the presence of feminists, sometimes leading to them actually getting visibly upset and angry, even insults being thrown which is most definitely a sign of being incapable of having a civil discussion, even though I'll still be completely calm and trying to carry out a normal conversation since at the end of the day what good is two friends or acquaintances arguing going to do? I advise anyone who is anti-feminism to avoid getting emotional and raising their voices in situations like this, and even actual feminists should spread that advice amongst themselves, as it can really undermine whatever valid points you're making since who can take a person who can't keep calm seriously?


Actually, this goes for any 'argument' lol.

masculinist

Pixie Chief wrote: »

I thanked your post earlier for precisely this reason. It made it clear that you have higher standards for choosing mates than what they look like - no objectifying of women here. I felt the post had a 'I hear ya' or 'I can relate to what you're saying, here's my experience' kinda vibe. I can't see anything wrong in what you've said. Being groped is a horrible experience for anyone....*shudders*

Thanks. Women need to be taught not to grope. Comments on the thread [which for brevity I wont quote] say women live more in fear but I find it a bit of an exaggeration in some ways. They have no problem groping strange men in public bars and clubs because they feel safe in public where everyone can see. And men live in fear too - if you push her away when she gropes you because lets face it , genitals are sensitive for everyone no matter how large, then you are setting yourself up to be accused of hitting a woman. Then other women and white knights will jump in. And consider for a moment the character of a woman who thinks grabbing your privates was ok - a woman of such character will not hesitate to twist the truth any way which keeps her on top. A lot of sexism against men has to be taken on the chin so to speak just for self protection against unfavorable odds.
Provided a woman takes proper precautions which anyone does e.g does not get into a car with a stranger etc or go walking blind drunk up into the Dublin mountains then she is as safe as anyone else. If a man does the same things, drinks so much he can barely stand etc and is alone with no friends to help him he can also get raped or robbed. The fear or worry about self protection exists for all sexes. You can be attacked by a junkie or bottled anywhere. You see videos on Crimeline all the time of someone being bottled in the back of the head walking through a town centre. People everywhere feel uneasy when they cross the boundaries of what they know to be safe. To accuse men of being braver is just to paint women as helpless victims again. Women are tougher than they look. Like anyone else you just have to know yourself. The average woman would be safer walking down O Connell Street at 4 am than a white male with Dwarfism. if she is a Judo champ like a woman I know she is even safer still. Life is not so black and white. Its a grey area. Creating sexist divisions doesnt do us any favors I think.

Eoin247

I think it's a culture thing. This is probably going to be stamped as being racist, but look at who the people are that are passing these comments, and where this is.

VEN

i think some if not most of the remarks in the vid are setup, a bit ott as she's not 'hot' imo, she wouldn't turn my head.
if it's all real then them guys really have problems.

they set out to make a point so needed to work, insert some props.

kleefarr

Imagine what might of happened if there wasn't a camera crew following her around filming it.

DoYouEvenLift

kleefarr wrote: »

Imagine what might of happened if there wasn't a camera crew following her around filming it.

Not sure if srs, the camera was completely concealed in a bag on the person walking in front of her...

Semele

OldNotWIse wrote: »

What would you suggest? We are on a discussion forum. Would you like recorded events? A logbook? Should I call witnesses from the establishments on the nights in question? There are limits to what you can do on a thread - if you choose not to believe someone because it suits your agenda, I can't help you. You haven't "called me" on anything I'm afraid.

The request for some sort of proof before your experience will be believed has an uncomfortable parallel with the way sexual assault cases are dealt with under sharia law, where the act has to have been witnessed (with the caveat that the statement of a female witness bears half the weight of that of a male witness) in order to be credible! Obviously it's not remotely the same level of severity and I'm not for a second equivocating the experience of a privileged western woman with that of a middle eastern woman under strict Islamic law, however it strikes me as being (scarily) on the same spectrum of thinking.

We've already had the debate on here about whether women's clothing/appearance attracts attention and is thus effectively "asking for it". People rightly pointed out that this is the line of thought behind enforcement of the burkha. I see the refusal to consider women's testimony valid in itself as similar. And THAT is why I believe these issues are important to discuss. Not because the woman in the video was under significant threat, but because the beliefs underlying the problem behaviour proliferate in our society and because we can see, horrifically, the consequence of such beliefs when unchallenged, formalised and enshrined within power structures in other countries.

masculinist

Semele wrote: »

The request for some sort of proof before your experience will be believed has an uncomfortable parallel with the way sexual assault cases are dealt with under sharia law, where the act has to have been witnessed

I also noticed some disturbing parallels too with Sharia Law but in the opposite direction from those who should know better which makes it even more sad...

In the USA, no feminist organization lobbied against "Yes Means Yes", but has in fact lobbied -for- it, in spite of the fact that it codifies into law on college campuses a preponderance of evidence standard which enables allegations leveled at students to be denied their civil liberties and kicked off campus. The same way Judith Grossman's son was. One cannot openly lobby and support laws which violate the civil liberties of men, without omitting to have a hostility and or hatred for men. If feminist organizations were for equality in spite of gender they would instead would be protesting the codification of such an gender biased law.


Do you believe that somebody is innocent until proven guilty ? If you do then you cant really disagree with me. Nobody who believes in the right of someone to be presumed innocent until proven otherwise can support this. Rape is a grim subject but so are miscarriages of justice.

Semele

masculinist wrote: »

Do you believe that somebody is innocent until proven guilty ? If you do then you cant really disagree with me. Nobody who believes in the right of someone to be presumed innocent until proven otherwise can support this. Rape is a grim subject but so are miscarriages of justice.

I absolutely do believe that someone is innocent until proven guilty and my heart goes out to any man threatened with something he didn't do. My feminism is second to my belief in shared humanity and the importance of cultivating compassion to all people who are suffering.

I think that a lot of current debate often feminism versus men's rights is imported from American culture and that this should be kept in mind on both sides. I read a few American blogs on women's issues (and men's rights issues, cos I like to stay informed and open minded:) )and over the last couple of years I've noticed a real shift in both towards greater separatism and even hatred of the other, which makes me very uncomfortable. American culture is incredibly obsessed with race, social class and gender roles, in a way that we thankfully are not yet. I would like to think that we can share experiences and invest in understanding each other from a position of less fear and aggression than I see in some of the stuff I read from there. It's a culture I wouldn't like to be part of currently, anyway!

Iranoutofideas

More street harassment in New York

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Czb4rImsph0

DoYouEvenLift

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

More street harassment in New York

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Czb4rImsph0

Hopefully the first time I use the NYC subway whenever I go there will be even half as entertaining as that absolute brawl lmao

Annasopra

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

Strong assumption. And if I did, how would thinking that average woment won't get harassed but good looking women being fair game be comparable? Do you mean won't/will?

And average as it would provide the most fair results for the sake of the experiment obviously.

Ah right ok you dont want to answer the question.

Annasopra

orubiru wrote: »

Eh, why not address the points made in the post instead of trying to move on to something else?

It's pretty obvious that the poster is questioning the frequency and severity of harassment in the streets of Ireland.

Simple question really, do you think that, in general, women get harassed a lot on the streets in Ireland?

Simple question why did the poster suggest using an "average" woman?

Annasopra

orubiru wrote: »

Why?

Because you continually rudely suggested Oldnotwise was a liar with an agenda.