Sexy street harassment

Playboy

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Continuing to play the "I'm only being polite and nice and you're being mean to me for nothing" nonsense. The thing is, I don't care why someone is approaching me if I don't want to be approached, so it's quite likely I just move on about my business and ignore them. Happens at least two or three times a day depending where I'm going. I actually have a fair idea when someone approaches me what they're looking for because I'm assessing them as they're coming towards me. They made the assumption before I did that I would talk to them. You're not listening at all when I've been over this at least five times in the thread already, because if you had read the thread, you'd see all the assumptions you're making here have already been covered.

Ain't nobody got time for that though, and by that same token you should understand that if I stopped up and regarded everyone on the street who ever says hello to me, I'd get nowhere and I'd get nothing done. I simply don't have time to be entertaining everyone who crosses my path. Under those circumstances, I don't consider ignoring someone I don't know as rude behaviour.





What? It's takes mere milliseconds after you notice someone to assess whether they're open to being approached or not. You're hardly being asked to write a thesis on their deportment as you approach, and because you're having to approach them, it stands to reason you're at a distance already.





You're desperately trying to make it sound like I'm the one with the problem here. I'm not. Of course I talk to strangers on a daily basis, and then when I don't want to talk to strangers, I don't have to. I can usually tell what their motives are by their deportment as they approach. Take the simple example of those bible bashing types, or charity workers, it's pretty safe to assume what their intentions are, and I'll nip it in the bud because I don't have any time for them. That's not responding aggressively, but because they didn't pay any regard to my deportment, they assume I'm being an ignorant fcuk. Fair enough.





I'm basing that assumption on a lot more than just their deportment, I can also read their face, see the look in their eyes, these things take milliseconds, and have less to do with my upbringing and more to do with experience. I'm usually polite to anyone who approaches me, only sometimes I don't have time to be stopping up and chatting to every randomer that approaches me. Again, that's not me being rude.





That may be the only thing we agree on, so when someone is politely telling you they aren't interested, calling them a stuck up cnut is a risky strategy in itself that may well see someone ending up in A&E if they say it to the wrong person.





It does reek of entitlement. What are you not getting about the fact that a complete stranger to you owes you nothing? You can think you're approaching politely, but that doesn't mean the other person may see your approach the way you do!





You're the person making the approach. You're the person that needs to speak, the other person doesn't need to speak to you. If a beggar approaches me looking for the price of a sandwich or looking to sell me some gear, and I don't want to give them the price of a sandwich, stopping up to tell them that may not end well for me. Again you're just going to extremes with me while your motivations are totally innocent of course. If you want to talk to people, pay for a therapist.





Why would you even want to talk to socially inept women, or can you not tell that they are socially inept before you approach them? I'm going to pubs and clubs probably as long as you are, and they haven't changed all that much really, except they don't play the easy squeezy slow set in the club nowadays.

I'm not on any high horse and I have no problems giving strangers the hint that I don't want to talk to them. Sometimes they have a problem with that and they try just like you're doing to say I'm the one with the problem (though admittedly they're not always so civil about it as you are), and I have no problems approaching strangers either, which is why those I have approached have always been civil to me.

lol ok!! Not really that interested... You obviously have a unique perspective

One eyed Jack

Mister Vain wrote: »

I've yet to acquire those Terminator scanning abilities. It takes me at least 3 full seconds. :pac:

Hell, try manage it wearing an eye patch!

bodhrandude

All this feminist hysteria, you think they would try to do something more purposeful like try to take on the Islamic countries that punish female rape victims for the rapes perpetrated on them.

DoYouEvenLift

bodhrandude wrote: »

All this feminist hysteria, you think they would try to do something more purposeful like try to take on the Islamic countries that punish female rape victims for the rapes perpetrated on them.

B-b-but muh 70 cents on the dollarrr!!!1!

Foxtrol

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Remember what I told you earlier about how you were reading too much into things and only seeing what you wanted to see?

You've repeatedly stated that you believe it's ok to be rude to people that approach you, no matter how polite they are. There's no seeing what I want, you've posted it clearly about 10 times at this stage.

It doesn't surprise me then that you completely missed this post -

I actually did read it but I've realised that there's very little use to trying to change your mind anymore as we've talked the subject in circles.

You're entrenched with your opinion that it's ok to say whatever rude thing you want to people who try to talk to you whereas I think that's a horrible attitude to have. I don't know what more there is to discuss with you.

One eyed Jack

Foxtrol wrote: »

You've repeatedly stated that you believe it's ok to be rude to people that approach you, no matter how polite they are. There's no seeing what I want, you've posted it clearly about 10 times at this stage.

That's not what I posted at all. I think you understand the difference between how polite you think you are, and how polite I think you are. Which of our perspectives is more important if you're the person doing the approaching? You think you're being polite, cool, but what matters is whether I think you're being polite, or indeed not.

Otherwise you're just like the guy in the video shouting after the girl that she should smile because the guy paid her a 'compliment' (or what he thought was a compliment, a polite compliment even!). The amount of people that tell me in any given day to smile... jesus, give me a reason to smile and I'll smile, same as give me a reason to talk to you and I'll talk to you.

I actually did read it but I've realised that there's very little use to trying to change your mind anymore as we've talked the subject in circles.

You're entrenched with your opinion that it's ok to say whatever rude thing you want to people who try to talk to you whereas I think that's a horrible attitude to have. I don't know what more there is to discuss with you.

You claim to have read the post, and yet you still referred to me as a woman? It's not me is entrenched in any opinion here, but you, when you claim to have listened, you claim to have read my posts, you claim I'm the person who has a horrible attitude and you claim I'm the person being rude... yet you're the person who still refers to me as a woman?

Foxtrol

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That's not what I posted at all. I think you understand the difference between how polite you think you are, and how polite I think you are. Which of our perspectives is more important if you're the person doing the approaching? You think you're being polite, cool, but what matters is whether I think you're being polite, or indeed not.

Otherwise you're just like the guy in the video shouting after the girl that she should smile because the guy paid her a 'compliment' (or what he thought was a compliment, a polite compliment even!). The amount of people that tell me in any given day to smile... jesus, give me a reason to smile and I'll smile, same as give me a reason to talk to you and I'll talk to you.

I'll just quote the five posts I did from you a few days ago. I've read several more since then too but this is already a decent sample:

One eyed Jack wrote:

I have every right to be rude to a complete stranger if they draw my attention.

One eyed Jack wrote:

I have a right to be an asshole when you step into my personal space attempting to draw my attention.

One eyed Jack wrote:

They're a complete stranger to me, I don't have to be polite to you, I don't owe you anything just because you took it upon yourself to intrude into my space with your own interests in mind.

One eyed Jack wrote:

I've been rude to plenty of people myself because I could tell before they opened their mouth

You're clearly consistent with this opinion that you can do/act the way you want once someone approaches you. I think this is a horrible attitude, it's as simple as that.

You claim to have read the post, and yet you still referred to me as a woman? It's not me is entrenched in any opinion here, but you, when you claim to have listened, you claim to have read my posts, you claim I'm the person who has a horrible attitude and you claim I'm the person being rude... yet you're the person who still refers to me as a woman?

I'm not a mind reader of what you mean with your emoticons and honestly the information you've been providing at times seems so conflicting that I've no idea whether you're a man or a woman. If you're a man that get's approached so much being told to smile then clearly it's just another example of this being an issue facing both sexes.

Apologies if I offended you but you should be clearer with your correction if someone makes a mistake like that. I'm going to reiterate that there's very little to gain from us continuing to discuss this as no matter what you post you're not going to make me believe that I'm wrong for simply saying hello to someone or that it's ok for that person to be rude to me for doing so and it appears the opposite is true. The discussion will continue to just go around in circles so I wont be responding to you on this again.

One eyed Jack

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'll just quote the five posts I did from you a few days ago. I've read several more since then too but this is already a decent sample:

You're clearly consistent with this opinion that you can do/act the way you want once someone approaches you. I think this is a horrible attitude, it's as simple as that.

There's nothing horrible about it, it's everyone's right to act the way they want when a stranger approaches them. I've maintained that position from early on in the thread, because I don't particularly care what your intentions are, my personal safety is paramount to me, and if I were to apply your 'say hello to all' standard, I could foresee trouble with that, so it's completely dependent on the circumstances - I can choose to say hello to you, I can choose to ignore you, I can choose to run away, you get the idea. I never said I would always be rude, but at that point, if you consider my reaction rude, I'm not responsible for that.

I'm not a mind reader of what you mean with your emoticons and honestly the information you've been providing at times seems so conflicting that I've no idea whether you're a man or a woman. If you're a man that get's approached so much being told to smile then clearly it's just another example of this being an issue facing both sexes.

If you look back through my posts in this thread, I've said all along it's an issue for both sexes, and I've said it's an issue perpetrated by both sexes, and even when I questioned another poster on whether they would support the idea that women should be criminalised for harassment, they danced around the question and couldn't give me a straight answer. My username alone is hardly ambiguous - a guy with one eye called Jack!

Apologies if I offended you but you should be clearer with your correction if someone makes a mistake like that. I'm going to reiterate that there's very little to gain from us continuing to discuss this as no matter what you post you're not going to make me believe that I'm wrong for simply saying hello to someone or that it's ok for that person to be rude to me for doing so and it appears the opposite is true. The discussion will continue to just go around in circles so I wont be responding to you on this again.

I wasn't at all offended tbh, I didn't want to make the other poster I was correcting feel awkward, they made a great post and it was only a minor detail, and they didn't actually say you were harassing me either, and I didn't feel harassed. Robust discussion, it is what it is, but everyone has been fairly respectful so far, despite low level harassment and what to do about it being such a contentious issue as there's a lot of disagreement on just what constitutes harassment, and what constitutes a suitable preventative measure for such antisocial behaviour. Some people believe the behaviour should be a criminal offence - I don't, and I couldn't support that. I've already outlined my suggestions early in the thread.

I never said you were wrong for saying hello to anyone, at all, by all means I would encourage you to say hello to people, I often do the same myself, say hello in passing and so on, I've even approached strangers to ask them for directions or ask them would they like to go for coffee some time. I'm saying that you may not always get the reaction you expect, and that's not that person's responsibility, they can't read your mind in just the same way as you can't read theirs - you're a stranger to them, and they will judge you based on a number of factors, including their experience of strangers approaching them, as you put it - just to say hello. Me personally? I don't go out of my way just to say hello to people - I usually have more specific intentions in mind, depending on the person I'm approaching.

It's just never happened to me yet where someone has been rude to me when I approached them, but I have seen instances where people have been rude to people right off the bat, and it wasn't just because they approached just to say hello. If I could tell that from a distance, and I can tell that the person was all wrong in the way they approached the other person, I can understand why the person was rude to them, sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it's not so obvious - it's completely dependent on the circumstances involved in every situation, and it's up to the person who is approached to determine for themselves what is or isn't appropriate for them and the appropriate response depending on how they are approached.

I'm simply saying that while you have every right to approach someone, you also have a responsibility towards that person to ensure that your approach is appropriate and is welcome. That way there's a good outcome for both parties involved, and while your approach might be unwelcome, there's less chance of you being shot down, and there's every chance the other person will respond positively. You don't have to be a mind reader, but it's better for your own sake, and for the other person's sake, if you're mindful of how your actions may be perceived by other people.

masculinist

In before someone locks this thread

Women harassing a man who goes for a walk.

Woman being basically ignored after walking for hours

gozunda

One eyed Jack wrote:

I've said it's an issue perpetrated by both sexes, and even when I questioned another poster on whether they would support the idea that women should be criminalised for harassment, they danced around the question and couldn't give me a straight answer. My username alone is hardly ambiguous - a guy with one eye called Jack!

Anyone using such a ridiculous example to defend their current position speaks volumes imo. To even pose the likleyhood of such a division between men and women says more about your posting style and divisiveness than anything else. Despite being repeatedly told that the question itself was ridiculous and that no legislation would ever only seek to criminalise men you continued the argument and even now again continue to do so even even well after that discussion was finished. I stopped replying tbh following your continued use of similar daft rhetorical arguments.

Annasopra

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

Let me know if this has already been posted.

Similar experiment carried out in New Zealand, the results are a lot different. Inb4 the man who asked for directions is considered a rapist.


Like I said ITT already, someone do this experiment on the busiest streets in Ireland with a realistically average woman so arguing on this topic can actually be relevant to the majority of us, if the problem actually exists here that is.

An average woman? Why? Do you think a womans good looks as you perceive them give some sort of entitlement and that "average" women won't get harassed but "good looking" women are fair game?

Annasopra

OldNotWIse wrote: »

When was the last time someone asked if they could join you and your OH in the sack? Or have I hit a nerve

I'd be interested in the answer that

DoYouEvenLift

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

An average woman? Why? Do you think a womans good looks as you perceive them give some sort of entitlement and that "average" women won't get harassed but "good looking" women are fair game?

Strong assumption. And if I did, how would thinking that average woment won't get harassed but good looking women being fair game be comparable? Do you mean won't/will?


And average as it would provide the most fair results for the sake of the experiment obviously.

orubiru

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

An average woman? Why? Do you think a womans good looks as you perceive them give some sort of entitlement and that "average" women won't get harassed but "good looking" women are fair game?

Eh, why not address the points made in the post instead of trying to move on to something else?

It's pretty obvious that the poster is questioning the frequency and severity of harassment in the streets of Ireland.

Simple question really, do you think that, in general, women get harassed a lot on the streets in Ireland?

Grayson

DoYouEvenLift wrote: »

Strong assumption. And if I did, how would thinking that average woment won't get harassed but good looking women being fair game be comparable? Do you mean won't/will?


And average as it would provide the most fair results for the sake of the experiment obviously.

You won't be able to draw a lot of info if the example isn't statistically significant. I think that's what he might have meant by average. We could get a woman to walk up and down O'Connell st in a see through top with no bra. The woman would get harassed (and probably even have a few women give her abuse) but we wouldn't be able to draw anything much from it.

Pixie Chief

I've read most of this thread and noted quite a few comments about how women are over-reacting to catcalling etc and about women living in a culture of fear rather than there being any real threat to them. I'm far from a feminist, tend to have more guy friends than girl friends and despise strident feminism - particularly the kind that like to label all men as woman-hating ****ers. I would have to say in my personal observations, in Ireland, at least, guys actually often get the rougher end of the stick in everyday, day-time encounters. Years ago, I was walking across a narrow path on a bridge in Leixlip pushing a buggy and an older (and very dapper gent) stepped off to allow me pass and I smiled and thanked him as getting round with a buggy is often very difficult. He told I'd made his day and it was so nice to be thanked instead of abused for assuming that he was suggesting that his help/kindness was required. I witnessed a guy get literally slapped in the face for getting up to give his seat to a pregnant woman on Dublin bus because he was somehow suggesting she was weaker than him, men getting completely ignored for holding doors open, offering to help with heavy items etc etc etc. I often think if we, as women, don't appreciate the kindness and gentlemanly conduct of all the fantastic and lovely men in the world then they will eventually stop doing it at all.

Having said that though, the 'culture of fear' thing is nonsense. Fear exists because it should. There are many places in the world today where women are only commodities to be traded - sold into sexual slavery, stoned to death because they got raped and not permitted the same rights and freedoms as men. I'm not aware of a single culture, now or at any time in the past where men were in that position. It has taken a very long time to get past the 'blame the victim of rape' mentality even in western countries...if we are entirely over it? Rape of women is a common occurrence, rape of men less so. Do men in Ireland going out at night worry about how provocative what they are wearing might be, make arrangements for going out and coming home so that you're never left alone, avoid taxi companies they don't know etc etc? Not a smartass point, genuinely a question? Even in more rural towns? I very rarely get harassed during the day (too ugly?) but frequently have lots of positive interactions with both sexes. At night, I go out with himself (and usually a fair group of lads) so harassment isn't an issue and good times had by all. I'm always all too well aware though, that it wasn't always like this for me and if I made slightly different choices it wouldn't be. I'm not free to socialise at will without fear of consequences.....common consequences. For me, this is why I would object to overt sexual attention from a stranger. It reminds me that there are men, in every country, all round the world, who think that objectifying women as sexual objects, thinking that women should submit sexually to them and forcing women to have sex with them is acceptable.....and I don't know whether the guy making references to me right now is one of them. Right enough, it's only a percentage of all the men in the world but it's a substantial percentage (and possibly growing?)

I prefer to fight the battle by appreciating men rather than denigrating them when no evidence exists to suggest that an individual man is in any way one of those. I like men and a great many things about them. Do I laugh when some of the guys make jokes about getting into the kitchen (or insert other stereotypical woman thing about being whipped/periods/hysteria/womans place - I usually return it with equally stereotypical toilet seat/housework/whatever guy thing)? Yes. Because it's a joke. If they meant it, it wouldn't be a joke. I know they don't mean it because I know them. If a random guy wandered up to me and asked me what I was doing out of the kitchen, then that's a bridge too far. Some guys need to step out of there dark ages and learn to control themselves. Equally some women need to develop some manners and appreciation (and sometimes a sense of humour) for all the great guys out there because we are in danger of turning one thing into another. We can't treat those two things as separate issues, they are interlinked.

orubiru

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'd be interested in the answer that

Why? The post was choosing a specific instance of abuse and then saying "have you ever experienced that, have you, have you" as if it's making some kind of point.

Obviously not everyone has the same life experience.

An English guy broke my nose in a Supermacs in Dublin once. Does it mean that I can use that one instance to make valid, or even informed, comment on violence done to bystanders by English guys in Supermacs? I don't think so.

I could have easily said to the poster "well, have you ever had your nose broken on a night out"? It's an equally pointless question as the one they asked me.

Without any kind of proper analysis and investigation we cannot say how frequent or how severe the harassment is. We can't figure out why it's happening and who is doing it. Obviously a sub set of "All Men" are doing the harassing but what are the identifiers that seperate men who harass and men who don't.

Offering up "well >> I << was harassed this one time. Has that ever happened to you" doesn't add anything at all to the discussion. It gives us no insight AT ALL into the frequency or cause of the problem.

If this were, say, a discussion on Asian Drivers or some other stereotype then people adding "well, I got a taxi and the driver was Asian and I was terrified we'd crash" would be told off because they are using their personal experience to make sweeping statements without considering the actual statistics.

So why isnt that happening here? Why are we not saying "10 hours of footage and only 2 minutes worth makes your point? Get out of here."?

Ficheall

Have any posters here been "harassed", if that's the word we're using, by someone who was sober?

Pixie Chief

Ficheall wrote: »

Have any posters here been "harassed", if that's the word we're using, by someone who was sober?

I'm not sure drink has anything to do with it to be honest. I'd hazard a guess that most daytime "harassment" is stone cold sober. Night time could be different but again, I've often seen the guys over the years in states ranging from total sobriety to mouldy drunk. Never seen any of them suddenly turn into men preying on women, harassing them sexually or otherwise or demonstrating a lack of respect for women. They might be a little braver about asking a woman they liked to dance/drink/phone number or whatever and maybe a bit slower to take a hint if it wasn't welcome (as in she might have to say no twice?) where usually the first sign of rejection would have them gone. Drink might bring a discriminatory attitude of any kind out of the shadows and make it louder but not sure it could create it completely out of thin air?

denhaagenite

Ficheall wrote: »

Have any posters here been "harassed", if that's the word we're using, by someone who was sober?

Yes, the very first time I was walking in a suburb close to UCC as a teenager and a guy shouted "Get your tits out" from a car window.

masculinist

denhaagenite wrote: »

Yes, the very first time I was walking in a suburb close to UCC as a teenager and a guy shouted "Get your tits out" from a car window.

This goes both ways. I have been groped by females without warning, not all of them attractive either. If they had any potential for being attractive , they sure lost it when they groped me.

denhaagenite

masculinist wrote: »

This goes both ways. I have been groped by females without warning, not all of them attractive either. If they had any potential for being attractive , they sure lost it when they groped me.

Not sure why you quoted my post then responded with this? I never said that it doesn't happen to men. It shouldn't happen to anyone, male or female.

masculinist

denhaagenite wrote: »

Not sure why you quoted my post then responded with this? I never said that it doesn't happen to men. It shouldn't happen to anyone, male or female.

Because I was making the contribution too of my own experience as a lawbiding male who respects others and minds my own business but who has been sexually harassed too. Often Misogyny threads try to paint an extremely one sided picture of women as helpless victims with no agency over their own lives. Many women who are doing the whole strong independent woman thing [just like any man who leaves the nest and becomes a mature responsible adult] absolutely hate that notion. We all get harassment in various forms. You cant walk down Grafton Street without being 'harassed' by beggars , junkies and down on their luck homeless people. However most of us must realise they have enough problems of their own without needing to YouTube them with an axe to grind.

denhaagenite

masculinist wrote: »

Because I was making the contribution too of my own experience as a labiding male who respects others and minds my own business

Then maybe quote the OP?

masculinist

denhaagenite wrote: »

Then maybe quote the OP?

80 pages of this thread. I will get around to it. Sorry if you found being quoted offensive in some way. I assume you quote others yourself from time to time.

denhaagenite

masculinist wrote: »

80 pages of this thread. I will get around to it. Sorry if you found being quoted offensive in some way. I assume you quote others yourself from time to time.

Yes, when it's relevant or when I'm responding to someone.

Ficheall

Pixie Chief wrote: »

I'm not sure drink has anything to do with it to be honest.

Possibly. I was just wondering if it might have the same relevance as being male. Some people are always going to be assholes - drunk or sober, male or female. It just seemed that the majority of anecdotes involved less than sober people, so I wanted to be sure we were lambasting the right half of the population.

masculinist

denhaagenite wrote: »

Yes, when it's relevant or when I'm responding to someone.

How was it not relevant ? You felt harassed. I also felt harassed and disrespected in a meaningful way. I am sure lots of chauvinist misandrists of both sexes thought Phoarrrr lucky guy etc. Personally I feel sick at the memory of some of this. That my girlfriend might have heard someone say through ther grapevine I was groped and it was all my fault etc . That to complain means there is something wrong with me as I dont live up to the ''always up for it with zero standards'' stereotype. There is no excuse. Women do not respect male boundaries if they find him attractive. Thats a reality.

denhaagenite

Ficheall wrote: »

Possibly. I was just wondering if it might have the same relevance as being male. Some people are always going to be assholes - drunk or sober, male or female. It just seemed that the majority of anecdotes involved less than sober people, so I wanted to be sure we were lambasting the right half of the population.

I do think there's a much higher chance of it happening if drink has been taken, but a certain subset of people will do it regardless.

denhaagenite

masculinist wrote: »

How was it not relevant ? You felt harassed. I also felt harassed and disrespected in a meaningful way. I am sure lots of chauvinist misandrists of both sexes thought Phoarrrr lucky guy etc. Personally I feel sick at the memory of some of this. That my girlfriend might have heard someone say through ther grapevine I was groped and it was all my fault etc . That to complain means there is something wrong with me as I dont live up to the ''always up for it with zero standards'' stereotype. There is no excuse. Women do not respect male boundaries if they find him attractive. Thats a reality.

I fully agree with you. But it bears absolutely no relevance to my post.