Sexy street harassment

Mister Vain

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ahh it's not even wait for a signal like (because that'd be just weird - "You may approach now" ), but I'm just talking like, y'know, the obvious stuff, like you wouldn't approach someone from behind to get their attention, you approach from the front, assess their surroundings (so you have a clear and quick getaway if things go south fast! :pac:), at least attempt eye contact from a distance, or get yourself somewhere within their peripheral vision, that sort of thing. Don't just go barging in there like you're carrying a chloroform hanky in your back pocket if the girl doesn't comply with your demands (has "get your coat, you've pulled" EVER worked for anyone? Anyone?).

Every situation is different, and that's why the above is only the bloody basics that sound even worse when they're spelled out because this stuff should come naturally and be instinctive, and it should feel natural, both to you, and to the person you're approaching, because if you're not relaxed and having a good time already, the other person if they aren't legless (and sometimes even when they are!) can sense that something is off, and then they won't feel very relaxed either, and they could be the one doing a hot trot across the dance floor to get away or slinking back into their group or whatever.

I've seen both guys and girls after they've been rejected sometimes they'll follow the person around the club for the night with a look in their eyes like a frickin' hunter after a baby deer, and that's just not on, but the amount of people that think that's acceptable behaviour, geez, and if I notice these things, damn straight other people notice them too, and that could be your next target that's already seen you sniffing after the other person, and that's why I mentioned about shooting people down before they even open their mouth, because you can tell all you need to know about a person before they open their mouth, and if you can't, then that's something that you need to work on, because as I said way back in the thread - nobody is any better or worse than anyone else, we're all the bloody same - "ugly bags of mostly water"*


*Star Trek fans will understand the reference, and no, I don't get out much :pac:

Well yeah I mean you have the basic stuff like not approaching from behind and all that (Apparently approaching from the side is the best way) but I find the longer the night goes on the more difficult it is to read social cues and body language and all that. Peoples inhibitions start to drop after a while too. What may have been inappropriate earlier in the night could be fair game by 2am.

I've seen guys aimlessly following women around clubs too. I've also seen women who lead guys on and allow a guy to buy them drinks all night and then feck off and leave him there.

Grayson wrote: »

The only time I've ever complimented a girl in work on clothing was when a girl wore a darth vader tee. And that was ok because i was wearing one too.

The only 100% solution to this is for a guy to never look at a girl as attractive and to never, ever compliment them. Because a compliment is only a compliment if it's coming from someone the girl wants it to come from.

I'm probably opening up a can of worms here, but from my experience, Irish women don't respond too well to compliments. Telling an Irish girl she is gorgeous or has lovely eyes just sounds cheesy as fook. You have to be a lot more subtle when complimenting an Irish girl. You can be more forward with the foreign women; there's less mind games. I know that's a big generalisation and I'm probably going to get ridiculed for it, but that has just been my experience.

Grayson wrote: »

I've seen in in Dublin at night when people are locked. More from guys than girls. But the hen parties in templebar are the most terrifying

Don't even get me started on hen nights. Some of the things women have done to me on hen nights over the years has been crazy to say the least. It goes far beyond invading my personal space I can tell ya. :pac:

OldNotWIse

orubiru wrote: »

Well, I don't believe you. Since it was you making the statement the onus of proof lies with you. So, lets leave it there maybe?

Onus of proof? Are we in a court of law now or something? (In which case, FYI, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution anyway). There was me thinking we were having a chat on Boards.

Well, in that case....if it please the court...I don't give a fúck if you believe me or not.*


*but if you saw my photo you totally would :pac:

orubiru

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Onus of proof? Are we in a court of law now or something? (In which case, FYI, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution anyway). There was me thinking we were having a chat on Boards.

Well, in that case....if it please the court...I don't give a fúck if you believe me or not.*


*but if you saw my photo you totally would :pac:

Haha.

Look, the video gives us no indication of how severe or how common the problem is. The full 10 hours of footage is not available to us so we can't do our own research or make our own minds up. The producers of the video clip are effectively trying to hijack our opinions and make our minds up for us. I question if the video is a valid study of a valid problem. Is it worthy of 32 million views, widespread media coverage and the donations that will come with that? I am not convinced.

There is no effort to discover the motivations of the guys doing the harassment and there is not effort to offer a solution.

You participate in basically the same behavior. Proclaiming that yourself and your other half are frequently harassed yet offering nothing of substance to either back up your claims or demonstrate how common or severe the problem is.

So, I called you out on that. Your reaction was "I don't give a fúck if you believe me or not".

So, really, what was the point in telling everyone how you and your other half get hassled by guys all the time when you can't substantiate the claims or provide any kind of context? What's the point of doing that when the first person who questions you on it get's told "I don't give a fúck if you believe me or not"?

I feel like this video was created with the same sort of mindset "OK we've been walking around for 10 hours here and we've only got 2 minutes of footage, should we REALLY go ahead with this?" Yeah, f*ck it, nobody will question us and we can just ignore them if they do.

I do not doubt that you do get hassled. I think it's unfortunate. I do however think that you are overstating how much hassle you get and that it is likely on the same level of harassment as cyclists might get from motorists or people using the LUAS Red Line might get from "the locals".

It comes down to the same point. We already know that people can be a-holes sometimes. This video intentionally strips it down to "look Group X are causing Problem Y" and you are not doing much more that saying "Yes Group X did that to me once too".

If I saw your photo I'd just be like "meh" because I, like the vast majority of human beings, understand there's more to people than simply how they look. So, I'd understand that the kind of person who'd hassle you is the same kind of person who hassles the staff on the LUAS or in the shop or other various random strangers.

tinz18

orubiru wrote: »

Haha.

You participate in basically the same behavior. Proclaiming that yourself and your other half are frequently harassed yet offering nothing of substance to either back up your claims or demonstrate how common or severe the problem is.

I do not doubt that you do get hassled. I think it's unfortunate. I do however think that you are overstating how much hassle you get and that it is likely on the same level of harassment as cyclists might get from motorists or people using the LUAS Red Line might get from "the locals".

I'm going out for the first time in ages next weekend. Because of this thread I'm actually tempted to make it into a kind of social experiment where when myself and my friends (who would be less tolerant) turn down advances, we'll do it very very politely and nicely and take notes of the reactions obtained. If it's an average night I can see the c*** word being used at least once. If I'm lucky it'll be a rare night and not one guy will come up to me expecting to get lucky. However don't know if a test like this is ethical or not.

OldNotWIse

orubiru wrote: »

Haha.

Look, the video gives us no indication of how severe or how common the problem is. The full 10 hours of footage is not available to us so we can't do our own research or make our own minds up. The producers of the video clip are effectively trying to hijack our opinions and make our minds up for us. I question if the video is a valid study of a valid problem. Is it worthy of 32 million views, widespread media coverage and the donations that will come with that? I am not convinced.

There is no effort to discover the motivations of the guys doing the harassment and there is not effort to offer a solution.

You participate in basically the same behavior. Proclaiming that yourself and your other half are frequently harassed yet offering nothing of substance to either back up your claims or demonstrate how common or severe the problem is.

So, I called you out on that. Your reaction was "I don't give a fúck if you believe me or not".

So, really, what was the point in telling everyone how you and your other half get hassled by guys all the time when you can't substantiate the claims or provide any kind of context? What's the point of doing that when the first person who questions you on it get's told "I don't give a fúck if you believe me or not"?

I feel like this video was created with the same sort of mindset "OK we've been walking around for 10 hours here and we've only got 2 minutes of footage, should we REALLY go ahead with this?" Yeah, f*ck it, nobody will question us and we can just ignore them if they do.

I do not doubt that you do get hassled. I think it's unfortunate. I do however think that you are overstating how much hassle you get and that it is likely on the same level of harassment as cyclists might get from motorists or people using the LUAS Red Line might get from "the locals".

It comes down to the same point. We already know that people can be a-holes sometimes. This video intentionally strips it down to "look Group X are causing Problem Y" and you are not doing much more that saying "Yes Group X did that to me once too".

If I saw your photo I'd just be like "meh" because I, like the vast majority of human beings, understand there's more to people than simply how they look. So, I'd understand that the kind of person who'd hassle you is the same kind of person who hassles the staff on the LUAS or in the shop or other various random strangers.

What would you suggest? We are on a discussion forum. Would you like recorded events? A logbook? Should I call witnesses from the establishments on the nights in question? There are limits to what you can do on a thread - if you choose not to believe someone because it suits your agenda, I can't help you. You haven't "called me" on anything I'm afraid.

You'd be great in court by the way - "but Judge, please don't lock my client up for killing someone, after all, people get killed all over the world every day, therefore his behavior was justified".

ps maybe if you saw my photo you might say "meh" as you'd recognise me as someone who has rejected you in the past for having no sense of boundaries and an intolerable passive aggression that you take out on anyone who dares to wish to be left alone.

OldNotWIse

tinz18 wrote: »

I'm going out for the first time in ages next weekend. Because of this thread I'm actually tempted to make it into a kind of social experiment where when myself and my friends (who would be less tolerant) turn down advances, we'll do it very very politely and nicely and take notes of the reactions obtained. If it's an average night I can see the c*** word being used at least once. If I'm lucky it'll be a rare night and not one guy will come up to me expecting to get lucky. However don't know if a test like this is ethical or not.

Make sure you record it and bring signed affidavits and witness statements for Orubiru.

orubiru

tinz18 wrote: »

I'm going out for the first time in ages next weekend. Because of this thread I'm actually tempted to make it into a kind of social experiment where when myself and my friends (who would be less tolerant) turn down advances, we'll do it very very politely and nicely and take notes of the reactions obtained. If it's an average night I can see the c*** word being used at least once. If I'm lucky it'll be a rare night and not one guy will come up to me expecting to get lucky. However don't know if a test like this is ethical or not.

I think as a proper study it only really works if there is some set up where we can quantify the findings and also some effort to actually figure out why these people are behaving in this way.

That's a real problem with a social experiment of this nature. Counting up the number of negative interactions should require you to compare them to the total number of interactions. Otherwise you leave the door opened for people to say things like "well Group X have been shown to cause Problem Y 15 times in the last 3 hours" and it looks like an intentional attempt to say "Group X are bad, see?"

I mean, what if a group of girls go out on a Friday to see how many guys call them "c*nt" but one of the girls gets assaulted by some other random girl in Supermacs at the end of the night?

Does the tone of the whole thing change to "forget about harassment dudes I just got beat up in Supermacs by another woman"? Then post on Facebook "Why are women in Supermacs so violent! Donate to end this random violent behaviour".

We know that random assaults happen in the city at the weekend but we also know that it's a small handful of people causing the problem so we just go about our lives and hope that we don't end up having to deal with it.

How many guys would be out on a weekend? How many would be approaching women? How many of those would be rejected? How many of those would react badly to rejection?

Of those who'd react badly to the rejection what are the underlying reasons? Can we change that behavior? How can we change that behavior?

For me, that would be the correct process to follow.

What we seem to do is make a big show of shouting "GUYS! Stop harassing women!" when the reality is that most guys are not harassing women and don't need to be reminded not to do that. A portion of the dudes who participate in harassment will carry on no matter how hard you shout and will continue to do so unless the law steps in.

So we have to tell ALL men to not harass women in the hope that we reach the small few who might see the Youtube video and think "oh man, I actually behave like that, I should stop".

It doesn't make any sense. That's why I think there is more of a "propaganda" aspect to this stuff... they have an agenda and they haven't thought it through and they didn't collect enough data or do comparisons or analysis so they end up really just pointing fingers and, I suppose, getting a load of donations.

P. Breathnach

tinz18 wrote: »

I'm going out for the first time in ages next weekend. Because of this thread I'm actually tempted to make it into a kind of social experiment where when myself and my friends (who would be less tolerant) turn down advances, we'll do it very very politely and nicely and take notes of the reactions obtained. If it's an average night I can see the c*** word being used at least once. If I'm lucky it'll be a rare night and not one guy will come up to me expecting to get lucky. However don't know if a test like this is ethical or not.

So what happens if the first person to approach you sets your hormones racing and changes your plans for the evening?

tinz18

Em I have a boyfriend who I love and adore, so there'll be no change of plans- for me at least!

orubiru

OldNotWIse wrote: »

What would you suggest? We are on a discussion forum. Would you like recorded events? A logbook? Should I call witnesses from the establishments on the nights in question? There are limits to what you can do on a thread - if you choose not to believe someone because it suits your agenda, I can't help you. You haven't "called me" on anything I'm afraid.

You'd be great in court by the way - "but Judge, please don't lock my client up for killing someone, after all, people get killed all over the world every day, therefore his behavior was justified".

ps maybe if you saw my photo you might say "meh" as you'd recognise me as someone who has rejected you in the past for having no sense of boundaries and an intolerable passive aggression that you take out on anyone who dares to wish to be left alone.

Well, you'd be awful in court. "Judge, we know that people do kill sometimes, my friend walked around NYC for 10 hours and saw 0.04% of a killing and one time someone even tried to kill me! So let's lock everyone up so nobody can ever kill again".

I DO believe that you would experience some hassle when out and about with your OH. I think that this is an unfortunate side effect of living, and going out and about, in a big European city. People get all kinds of harassment from other people all the time.

I also think that you are overstating it because it suits your agenda.

Your final comment... I don't think you are coming across at all well there. I suspect you don't really care though.

I think that we could maybe never agree on much but I would say that I feel aware that I am almost creating the impression of someone who would be the reason why women might be hesitant to report sexual harassment etc ("can you PROVE it!") and I certainly don't want to take that any further.

The main point for me is that the original video posted, and the reaction to said video, shows us the potential downside of social media. We now have a situation where someone can use 2 minutes of video footage to create international outrage. Fortunately, on this occasion, men are the targets and so most likely nothing will be done and it will just disappear in a week or 2 (THAT is a whole other issue in itself).

They have demonstrated the willingness of people to just jump on an issue and go crazy over it without even stopping to ask basic questions (10 hours of this in New York, you got less than 2 minutes of footage? would be a big one for me).

Personally, I think it has the potential to be a dangerous thing. What happens if, next time, the target is one of societies smaller, more marginalized, groups?

Playboy

OldNotWIse wrote: »

What would you suggest? We are on a discussion forum. Would you like recorded events? A logbook? Should I call witnesses from the establishments on the nights in question? There are limits to what you can do on a thread - if you choose not to believe someone because it suits your agenda, I can't help you. You haven't "called me" on anything I'm afraid.

You'd be great in court by the way - "but Judge, please don't lock my client up for killing someone, after all, people get killed all over the world every day, therefore his behavior was justified".

ps maybe if you saw my photo you might say "meh" as you'd recognise me as someone who has rejected you in the past for having no sense of boundaries and an intolerable passive aggression that you take out on anyone who dares to wish to be left alone.

I'm sure you are a model of human perfection but tbh even if you are then the experiences and frequency of those experiences don't ring true to me. In various social groups over the years I have had friends and acquaintances that were stunning in the looks department and some that were models. I never remember seeing them get harassed a lot in clubs or on the street and don't remember them complaining about. I have in the last few days spoken to a number of people that I am friends with that would certainly I'm sure be rocking an 8 or 9 on the hot scale (though not a ten like you) and discussed this video and how much harassment they come across on the street or in bar clubs and the overwhelming response was that yes it does occur but only very occasionally and most of those occasions are very late at night when everyone is a little worse for wear in or after a club. The number of times they felt actually threatened could be counted on one hand over the course of their life.

So yes its a case of "well it doesnt happen to me ergo it doesnt happen" but I would suggest that a lot of peoples experience indicate that certain people are exaggerating the issue in order to make a point that they are ideologically aligned to e.g. all men are potential harassers and rapists and the world isn't a safe place for women, women are the consummate victims of the evil patriarchy. I'm sorry if that sounds insensitive and I dont mean to trivialize your experiences but I think just as its not correct that I generalize my experience and the experience of people close to me to the wider population then its also right that you dont generalize your experience to the rest of the population (including those of you who are fortunate enough to be a 9 or 10 on the looks scale). it sounds like this kind of harassment can vary widely from person to person and that variation may be down to a number of issue such as geographic location, where and when people socialize, who they socialize with, reaction to people approaching them etc. etc. It is a complex issue imo that its portrayed in a far too simplistic and propagandized manner in that video.

OldNotWIse

orubiru wrote: »

Well, you'd be awful in court. "Judge, we know that people do kill sometimes, my friend walked around NYC for 10 hours and saw 0.04% of a killing and one time someone even tried to kill me! So let's lock everyone up so nobody can ever kill again".

I DO believe that you would experience some hassle when out and about with your OH. I think that this is an unfortunate side effect of living, and going out and about, in a big European city. People get all kinds of harassment from other people all the time.

I also think that you are overstating it because it suits your agenda.

Your final comment... I don't think you are coming across at all well there. I suspect you don't really care though.

I think that we could maybe never agree on much but I would say that I feel aware that I am almost creating the impression of someone who would be the reason why women might be hesitant to report sexual harassment etc ("can you PROVE it!") and I certainly don't want to take that any further.

The main point for me is that the original video posted, and the reaction to said video, shows us the potential downside of social media. We now have a situation where someone can use 2 minutes of video footage to create international outrage. Fortunately, on this occasion, men are the targets and so most likely nothing will be done and it will just disappear in a week or 2 (THAT is a whole other issue in itself).

They have demonstrated the willingness of people to just jump on an issue and go crazy over it without even stopping to ask basic questions (10 hours of this in New York, you got less than 2 minutes of footage? would be a big one for me).

Personally, I think it has the potential to be a dangerous thing. What happens if, next time, the target is one of societies smaller, more marginalized, groups?

and um...you'd be held in contempt of court for lying....since I never actually said that or purported to support the video in any way.


I wish I was over-stating how often it happens, believe me. Oh no wait, you wont. How will I sleep tonight.

OldNotWIse

Playboy wrote: »

I'm sure you are a model of human perfection but tbh even if you are then the experiences and frequency of those experiences don't ring true to me. In various social groups over the years I have had friends and acquaintances that were stunning in the looks department and some that were models. I never remember seeing them get harassed a lot in clubs or on the street and don't remember them complaining about. I have in the last few days spoken to a number of people that I am friends with that would certainly I'm sure be rocking an 8 or 9 on the hot scale (though not a ten like you) and discussed this video and how much harassment they come across on the street or in bar clubs and the overwhelming response was that yes it does occur but only very occasionally and most of those occasions are very late at night when everyone is a little worse for wear in or after a club. The number of times they felt actually threatened could be counted on one hand over the course of their life.

So yes its a case of "well it doesnt happen to me ergo it doesnt happen" but I would suggest that a lot of peoples experience indicate that certain people are exaggerating the issue in order to make a point that they are ideologically aligned to e.g. all men are potential harassers and rapists and the world isn't a safe place for women, women are the consummate victims of the evil patriarchy. I'm sorry if that sounds insensitive and I dont mean to trivialize your experiences but I think just as its not correct that I generalize my experience and the experience of people close to me to the wider population then its also right that you dont generalize your experience to the rest of the population (including those of you who are fortunate enough to be a 9 or 10 on the looks scale). it sounds like this kind of harassment can vary widely from person to person and that variation may be down to a number of issue such as geographic location, where and when people socialize, who they socialize with, reaction to people approaching them etc. etc. It is a complex issue imo that its portrayed in a far too simplistic and propagandized manner in that video.

Oh well if YOUR model friends haven't experienced men asking if they can join them and their girlfriends in the sack then I must have been dreaming...or should that be, having a nightmare?

Or should I just use the same line as you and Orubiru and say, "I don't believe you because I wsn't there. I believe you are overstating your experiences to suit your agenda"

There, all better now

orubiru

tinz18 wrote: »

Em I have a boyfriend who I love and adore, so there'll be no change of plans- for me at least!

Hypothetically...

If you didn't have a boyfriend.

How would you signal to guys that you did or did not wish to be left alone?

Would you prefer that guys just keep themselves to themselves and you can go over and chat to the ones you might be interested in? (this would be my preferred solution to all this... but... damn you nature!)

Is a weekend "out on the town" the kind of situation where you'd even want to meet guys?

IF you didn't have a boyfriend, how would a guy best approach you?

Would you have an idea in your head of where you'd say "OK, that's too much, a simple hello would have been fine" and shut the guy down or would you tend to just go by instinct?

Haha. Maybe none of those questions are appropriate actually. So you don't need to answer.

OldNotWIse

orubiru wrote: »

Hypothetically...

If you didn't have a boyfriend.

How would you signal to guys that you did or did not wish to be left alone?

Would you prefer that guys just keep themselves to themselves and you can go over and chat to the ones you might be interested in? (this would be my preferred solution to all this... but... damn you nature!)

Is a weekend "out on the town" the kind of situation where you'd even want to meet guys?

IF you didn't have a boyfriend, how would a guy best approach you?

Would you have an idea in your head of where you'd say "OK, that's too much, a simple hello would have been fine" and shut the guy down or would you tend to just go by instinct?

Haha. Maybe none of those questions are appropriate actually. So you don't need to answer.

Ask someone a question

Answer the question.

Tell them they don't need to answer the question.

What a strange post.

One eyed Jack

orubiru wrote: »

Well, you'd be awful in court. "Judge, we know that people do kill sometimes, my friend walked around NYC for 10 hours and saw 0.04% of a killing and one time someone even tried to kill me! So let's lock everyone up so nobody can ever kill again".

Nobody's actually suggested anything remotely related or even similar to that at all though, and the rest of your post just reads like one rambling argument of points nobody has made at all. Your latest few posts in this thread, honestly they've been very hard to follow as it's like you're jumping all over the place in an effort to wedge in things nobody has argued, to try and distract from what we are actually talking about.

I just don't understand why you're saying that it's all part of this 'bigger picture' and these people would display the same attitudes regardless of the circumstances of the situation and we should try and understand their behaviour and all the rest of it.

What you're basically arguing is that we should take responsibility for the actions of these people and we should seek to understand them and why they do it. Most people already understand their motivations, they just don't care what their motivations are, it's unwelcome behaviour and it's not the responsibility of the offended party to examine their behaviour. It's the responsibility of the perpetrator to examine their own behaviour and to consider how their behaviour may be socially unacceptable.

orubiru

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Ask someone a question

Answer the question.

Tell them they don't need to answer the question.

What a strange post.

I would describe your last 3 posts as as "attack mode".

It's way off topic.

I'm sorry, I was genuinely curious about how a woman might answer the questions I asked but also aware that they may not be entirely appropriate questions to ask.

My curiosity compelled me to ask but I felt the need to also say "I'm not sure if I should ask stuff like that so don't feel compelled to answer".

I didn't think it was strange at all. Until you pointed it out.

Maybe that was the point of the Youtube video?

OldNotWIse

orubiru wrote: »

I would describe your last 3 posts as as "attack mode".

It's way off topic.

I'm sorry, I was genuinely curious about how a woman might answer the questions I asked but also aware that they may not be entirely appropriate questions to ask.

My curiosity compelled me to ask but I felt the need to also say "I'm not sure if I should ask stuff like that so don't feel compelled to answer".

I didn't think it was strange at all. Until you pointed it out.

Maybe that was the point of the Youtube video?

Sorry if you felt like you were being attacked. I just hate when I post something and get accused of lying. Like I said, I wish I was! I mean, how can I defend myself on discussion board?? Let's start again.

irish_dave_83

It happens to men to from women, albeit not nearly as often. Its basic objectification. The difference is that men probably take it as a compliment(I would/have) and women feel uncomfortable. Therefore I dont beleive men can truly understand what it is like for a woman when they experience this.

Of course if it happens at night women can feel unsecure and scared in case teh wrong reply leads to some type of violence or bad situation. Men generally do not have this worry because we are bigger, stronger(im generalising here). I can see where women are coming from, being upset by this and cat calls should not happen in an ideal world, but after seeing this, is makes you wonder whether you can even approach a woman on the street without getting the "are you a psycho?" look. I probably havent expressed myself properly, but hopefully you get the point.

orubiru

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nobody's actually suggested anything remotely related or even similar to that at all though, and the rest of your post just reads like one rambling argument of points nobody has made at all. Your latest few posts in this thread, honestly they've been very hard to follow as it's like you're jumping all over the place in an effort to wedge in things nobody has argued, to try and distract from what we are actually talking about.

I just don't understand why you're saying that it's all part of this 'bigger picture' and these people would display the same attitudes regardless of the circumstances of the situation and we should try and understand their behaviour and all the rest of it.

What you're basically arguing is that we should take responsibility for the actions of these people and we should seek to understand them and why they do it. Most people already understand their motivations, they just don't care what their motivations are, it's unwelcome behaviour and it's not the responsibility of the offended party to examine their behaviour. It's the responsibility of the perpetrator to examine their own behaviour and to consider how their behaviour may be socially unacceptable.

I think as a society we do have a responsibility to look at behavior and understand why people do the things they do.

You are right, the individuals perpetrators probably do not care at all but society should care because asking questions and understanding this behavior will allow us to reduce the number of perpetrators in the future through better integration and education of the next generation.

A lot of these perpetrators may already be lost causes, their behavior on any given day almost pre-determined. If we cannot reform them then the best we can hope to get from them is information or maybe a clue as to why this behavior is so persistent.

This is why I say that the street harassment shown in the video is a symptom of an underlying problem. People don't just behave horribly towards women. I would wager that a guy giving women hassle in the nightclub is the same guy trying to get in a fight on the street later in the night.

We won't ever fix the problem by pointing at it and shouting "Look at what THEY do... can we have a donation"

If they had questioned the guys and asked "why would you even think to do this?" then I would have said that the video had value. If they had given some kind of statistical analysis then I would have said that the video had value.

Playboy

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Oh well if YOUR model friends haven't experienced men asking if they can join them and their girlfriends in the sack then I must have been dreaming...or should that be, having a nightmare?

Or should I just use the same line as you and Orubiru and say, "I don't believe you because I wsn't there. I believe you are overstating your experiences to suit your agenda"

There, all better now

Well to be fair I did address that issue in my post, it does come down to subjective experience and people then extrapolating that experience to the wider population. The issue is too complex for people to just do that because you can find anybody that has a different experience and claim that is the truth to refute the others position. So please read my posts before you quip back dismissively. I know you are probably busy with the constant harassment you are trying to deflect given your self assessed amazing looks :pac:

One eyed Jack

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

It happens to men to from women, albeit not nearly as often. Its basic objectification. The difference is that men probably take it as a compliment(I would/have) and women feel uncomfortable. Therefore I dont beleive men can truly understand what it is like for a woman when they experience this.

Of course if it happens at night women can feel unsecure and scared in case teh wrong reply leads to some type of violence or bad situation. Men generally do not have this worry because we are bigger, stronger(im generalising here). I can see where women are coming from, being upset by this and cat calls should not happen in an ideal world, but after seeing this, is makes you wonder whether you can even approach a woman on the street without getting the "are you a psycho?" look. I probably havent expressed myself properly, but hopefully you get the point.

I got your point anyway, and it's fairly spot on, but just the bit in bold there, I wouldn't encourage you to think that way at all. This video was a contrived effort from start to finish and involved only one woman who was purposely putting herself in between men who she was already fairly certain were likely to harass her. There was nothing 'everyday' or natural about it.

This video in no way should be taken as an implication that men should walk one side of the street, women the other, and never the twain shall meet. There's nobody saying you shouldn't, or can't introduce yourself to anyone on the street, just that you should be aware of yourself in how you introduce yourself and how the other person may react. If they don't react the way you'd hoped, learn from it and let it go, don't bloody dwell on it and make you afraid to interact with people.

That's how you learn what is and isn't appropriate and what is and isn't appreciated, and how to read people so that you don't make yourself look foolish. That's not something anyone else can teach you, it's something you have to learn for yourself from interacting with more and more people, rather than approaching as though in your mind you're already entitled to a payoff. That's making assumptions about a person you know nothing about, and that's why things were already going south before you ever even introduced yourself.

Playboy

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I got your point anyway, and it's fairly spot on, but just the bit in bold there, I wouldn't encourage you to think that way at all. This video was a contrived effort from start to finish and involved only one woman who was purposely putting herself in between men who she was already fairly certain were likely to harass her. There was nothing 'everyday' or natural about it.

This video in no way should be taken as an implication that men should walk one side of the street, women the other, and never the twain shall meet. There's nobody saying you shouldn't, or can't introduce yourself to anyone on the street, just that you should be aware of yourself in how you introduce yourself and how the other person may react. If they don't react the way you'd hoped, learn from it and let it go, don't bloody dwell on it and make you afraid to interact with people.

That's how you learn what is and isn't appropriate and what is and isn't appreciated, and how to read people so that you don't make yourself look foolish. That's not something anyone else can teach you, it's something you have to learn for yourself from interacting with more and more people, rather than approaching as though in your mind you're already entitled to a payoff. That's making assumptions about a person you know nothing about, and that's why things were already going south before you ever even introduced yourself.

To be fair I think you can apply your argument to both sides. Just as someone who approaches someone needs to sensitive to the person they are approaching then so does the person being approached. Human interaction is reciprocal and most of the time you get what you give. Yes some people are just dcks looking for trouble but a lot are just genuine people meaning no harm and they dont deserve to be shot down as cruelly as they often are. Both sides become defensive after bad experiences and that helps no one.

One eyed Jack

Playboy wrote: »

To be fair I think you can apply your argument to both sides. Just as someone who approaches someone needs to sensitive to the person they are approaching then so does the person being approached. Human interaction is reciprocal and most of the time you get what you give. Yes some people are just dcks looking for trouble but a lot are just genuine people meaning no harm and they dont deserve to be shot down as cruelly as they often are. Both sides become defensive after bad experiences and that helps no one.

You can't apply the same argument to both sides though as the person approaching bears all the responsibility for initiating the encounter, and therefore bears all responsibility for the results of that encounter - if it doesn't go well for them, then that's not the fault of the other person. That's their own fault for failing to read the situation and the other person properly. That's how you learn social skills, being considerate of other people beyond just yourself and what you want.

You'll eventually learn that just because you want something from someone, doesn't mean you're entitled to it, something you should have learned in childhood.

Playboy

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You can't apply the same argument to both sides though as the person approaching bears all the responsibility for initiating the encounter, and therefore bears all responsibility for the results of that encounter - if it doesn't go well for them, then that's not the fault of the other person. That's their own fault for failing to read the situation and the other person properly. That's how you learn social skills, being considerate of other people beyond just yourself and what you want.

You'll eventually learn that just because you want something from someone, doesn't mean you're entitled to it, something you should have learned in childhood.

eh wtf? So if I walk up to someone and politely say hello and that person tells me to fck off and calls me a cnt then that's all on me? Nice bubble you live in! You do realize that people approach strangers on a day to day basis about a wide range of issues. Everyone is only responsible for their own actions, if some behaves like an absolute bell end when I approach them then i reserve the right to react however I see fit. Aggression is always the responsibility of the aggressor and has nothing to do with who approached who or who spoke first.

And thanks but please dont be so fckin condescending telling me what I'll eventually learn and what I should have learned in childhood. No one said anything about entitlement but the day human beings can stop expecting a modicum of respect in normal day to day interactions is a sad day indeed. The irony of having your attitude and then trying to educate people about social skills :rolleyes:

Cosmicfox

I never experienced this until I moved to Aberdeen where I've had a few lads shout stuff at me when I'm walking home from work at night.

It's not pleasant.

denhaagenite

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You can't apply the same argument to both sides though as the person approaching bears all the responsibility for initiating the encounter, and therefore bears all responsibility for the results of that encounter - if it doesn't go well for them, then that's not the fault of the other person. That's their own fault for failing to read the situation and the other person properly. That's how you learn social skills, being considerate of other people beyond just yourself and what you want.

This works both ways though, if someone approaches you politely then they deserve to be dealt with politely, it's really just common decency. If someone simply introduces themselves or offers to buy me a drink my reaction wouldn't be to start screaming hysterically "YOU'RE INVADING MY PERSONAL BOUNDARIES!!!" and if it was then the result of the encounter wouldn't really have anything to do with that person. Kindness costs nothing, and neither do manners.

Being approached politely is very different to street harassment, but if subject to street harassment then imo the safest and best option is to completely ignore it. Any reaction is what the instigator is looking for, and the more dramatic the reaction then I suspect the more nasty the encounter could become.

One eyed Jack

Playboy wrote: »

eh wtf? So if I walk up to someone and politely say hello and that person tells me to fck off and calls me a cnt then that's all on me?

We're not just talking about walking up to someone and politely saying hello here though, are we? Your motivations go beyond just a simple hello. You're looking for a favorable response from a specific individual, and if you can't assess the likelihood from a distance that the person is likely to tell you to fcuk off, etc, then the fault IS yours.

Would you approach someone you weren't attracted to and politely say hello to them with the same motivations as you would have you approach a person you're attracted to?

Nice bubble you live in! You do realize that people approach strangers on a day to day basis about a wide range of issues.

Whatever other motivations there are for people approaching each other aren't particularly relevant here. In this thread we're only talking about one specific motivation which you can either acknowledge, or continue to play down in an attempt to make out you had no motive for approaching a person you found attractive and wanted their attention. Do you assume all people aren't as clever as you that they can't tell what your motivations are? It's written all over your face before you even open your mouth.

Everyone is only responsible for their own actions, if some behaves like an absolute bell end when I approach them then i reserve the right to react however I see fit. Aggression is always the responsibility of the aggressor and has nothing to do with who approached who or who spoke first.

You're responsible for initiating the interaction, so if the person perceives you to be behaving like an absolute bell end towards them, then they're naturally going to react on instinct. You're saying you reserve the right to react how you see fit, so you're saying that you're entitled to be in complete control of the interaction because you initiated the interaction. Nobody here has mentioned aggression, but because you're saying you reserve the right to react however you see fit, you're already spoiling for a fight before you've even approached!

And thanks but please dont be so fckin condescending telling me what I'll eventually learn and what I should have learned in childhood. No one said anything about entitlement but the day human beings can stop expecting a modicum of respect in normal day to day interactions is a sad day indeed. The irony of having your attitude and then trying to educate people about social skills :rolleyes:

Correction - YOU said nothing about entitlement, but your post actually reeks of entitlement, all about you and your rights and what you deserve, but nothing about what you owe the other person?

You're also the person arguing that you're entitled to intrude on another person and expecting they should respect you for the unwelcome intrusion. It's a sad day indeed when a person can't go about their business unhindered by people who want their attention but offer nothing in return.

Tbh though, I'm not interested in educating anyone in social skills, if you haven't learned at this stage, it's unlikely you ever will, and so you shall continue to suffer the indignity of being told "fcuk off you bell end" when you intrude on other people with no regard to how your intrusion may be perceived from their point of view.

OldNotWIse

Playboy wrote: »

Well to be fair I did address that issue in my post, it does come down to subjective experience and people then extrapolating that experience to the wider population. The issue is too complex for people to just do that because you can find anybody that has a different experience and claim that is the truth to refute the others position. So please read my posts before you quip back dismissively. I know you are probably busy with the constant harassment you are trying to deflect given your self assessed amazing looks :pac:

That's exactly what you did with your "none of my supermodel friends experience harrassment" comment. They haven't experienced it therefore you feel justified in calling "liar liar" on anyone who tells you they have.

Also, last sentence? Really? If you've run out of valid points you don't need to resort to childish quips to fúcking window dress your post. It just makes you look pathetic.

Playboy

OldNotWIse wrote: »

That's exactly what you did with your "none of my supermodel friends experience harrassment" comment. They haven't experienced it therefore you feel justified in calling "liar liar" on anyone who tells you they have.

Eh not sure why this is difficult for you. That was the point I was making, Both you and I can make very different arguments based on personal experience so really its all a bit pointless isnt it?

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Also, last sentence? Really? If you've run out of valid points you don't need to resort to childish quips to fúcking window dress your post. It just makes you look pathetic.

You get what you give! Have a look at your own posting style to see why people would respond as I have.