More Crap on Adams, Mod Warning in OP.

Phoebas

duckcfc wrote: »

And another note, any other country holds its revolutionary leaders in high esteem but here in west Brit Ireland, they are dragged threw the mud with allsorts of sh1te! The Irish sure are a funny aul bunch lol

These guys weren't our revolutionary leaders; they were terrorists. And the Irish people consistently rejected them and their political wing all the time they were active.

the_syco

duckcfc wrote: »

And another note, any other country holds its revolutionary leaders in high esteem but here in west Brit Ireland, they are dragged threw the mud with allsorts of sh1te! The Irish sure are a funny aul bunch lol

Michael Collins was a "revolutionary leader". Gerry Adams is a politician linked to a terrorist cell who made money from post office robberies and organised crime and killing more catholics than the "other side" whilst al the time claiming to be the "good guys".

Yarf Yarf wrote: »

I believe her, but I suspect she is being used as a political pawn by people who have no interest in her wellbeing or in getting her justice, but simply in slinging mud at Sinn Fein.

Yup, but I'd say she knows this, and is going along with it as last time she went it alone, she was warned off by the IRA.

porsche959 wrote: »

(and is no way connected to current polling of SF as compared to, say, FF or FG, or anything of that nature, no, not at all).

If it were anyone else, I'd call bull, but it seems all Irish parties don't see anything as "too low" to get a vote, from the mainstream to the loonies.

gunny558

porsche959 wrote: »

I'm afraid you're mistaken. I am not a 'Gerry Adams guy'. I am not even a Sinn Fein supporter (I dislike his party for various reasons, most of them too complicated to get into on here, and especially not in this thread. Basically, I think they're opportunistic, but mind you, if so, they're not necessarily any worse than FF or FG.)

I am merely commenting on the utter craven hypocrisy of those who lay into Sinn Fein over child abuse scandals, but stay remarkably silent on issues such as, for example, scandals implicating the Irish and indeed UK establishment during the years of the Troubles (last time I checked, Sinn Fein was not in charge of governance on this isle, north or south, during the many decades that hundreds if not thousands of children were abused and neglected in STATE-RUN orphanages and care homes).

So, while I am not an SF supporter, and don't even particularly like the party, if I see people laying into SF over alleged failings in the areas of child care, while also failing to call out other establishment parties (including one, that last time I checked,was in government for most of our history since independence) on the same issue, then, yep, I'll call those posters out on their cynicism, cheap political opportunism, hypocrisy and double standards - every time.

Right well listen I am a SF GA supporter and during a team debate I had the arse tore out of me by someone from FF.

And its got me wondering. During the debates we basically threw dirt and called people hypocrites and pulled skeletons out of their closets. And to be honest I never quite realised thats what we did.... not on those words.... the thought process was a bit more like "oh well your one to talk...."

So anyway, I got the ass tore out of me and then I started noticing I was doing it.... and then I started noticing it on here.

During debates, same as whats happened right here in this thread... there is an issue highlighted about Gerry Adams and soon enough we are saying "look what cameron did", "look what thatcher did"..... "do you know the MI5 knowingly employed a paedo"... "do you know what FF did"... "the media doesnt like us" etc

There is another debate on this Thursday about GA and the Cahill girl.... and I just know Im gonna have my ass handed to me again. Your obviously an up to speed guy (along with a few others on here)..... Id like see a proper debate take place on here and see some good arguments put forward and defended..... and not... as you say.... continusoly pointing out of hypocrisy.

gallag

At the end of the day anyone engaged or embroiled in child rape should all be treated equally. There will be pedos and people that facilitated there actions in all walks of society, surely not just a SF problem but whataboutery is pointless unless Jimmy saval etc are trying to get elected to office at this present time in your country. that's the bitter pill to swallow.

Barely There

duckcfc wrote: »

And another note, any other country holds its revolutionary leaders in high esteem but here in west Brit Ireland, they are dragged threw the mud with allsorts of sh1te! The Irish sure are a funny aul bunch lol

It's quite strange all right the way most people consider them to be a bunch of murdering psychopaths and scumbags.


Can't imagine why.

uck51js9zml2yt

Barely There wrote: »

It's quite strange all right the way most people consider them to be a bunch of murdering psychopaths and scumbags.


Can't imagine why.

We're all wrong and history will show him to be a saint *



*don't believe what I wrote

MouseTail

gunny558 wrote: »

There is another debate on this Thursday about GA and the Cahill girl.... and I just know Im gonna have my ass handed to me again.

what is it with the casual misogyny demonstrated through language used by SF supporters on here. That is leaving aside some of the more overt sexist bile I have read regarding this case. Is it indivitive of a wider anti female thread running through the republican movement. GA talks the talk in his statement about sexual violence, justice and equal rights, but this case has truly opened by eyes to the role and views of women in SF/IRA. I would love to hear the voices of some female SF supporters on this.

Happyman42

Barely There wrote: »

It's quite strange all right the way most people consider them to be a bunch of murdering psychopaths and scumbags.


Can't imagine why.

This is the kind of statement that always gets me wondering about the level of insight some posters have about what went on and what is going on.

If what you say is true 'that most people consider them to be.....etc etc' then how do you explain the simple fact that when people where free to vote they overwhelmingly voted for those that some on here like to characterise as 'terrorists, intimidators, psychopaths, murderers and other names banned on this forum etcetc'.
How do you explain that, I mean has that happened anywhere else on the planet?
To 'elect' is to reward somebody with permission to represent you and the people of N.I. have done that (and they had a choice of nationalist parties too) again and again and as far as I can see will continue to do it.
Would it be that 'most people' in NI don't see them that way and that a growing number in Southern Ireland are seeing it too?

Creative Juices

The bottom line for many people is that Adams is not a credible party leader or potential Taoiseach. He loses votes for SF, bigtime. I reckon he is a blocker for many people moving away from the usual suspects (FF, FG, Labour) to Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein know this now, the issue is how long it will take them to sort it.

Happyman42

Creative Juices wrote: »

The bottom line for many people is that Adams is not a credible party leader or potential Taoiseach. He loses votes for SF, bigtime. I reckon he is a blocker for many people moving away from the usual suspects (FF, FG, Labour) to Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein know this now, the issue is how long it will take them to sort it.

I am not a member of SF but I don't see any shred of evidence of that tbh. SF, like republicans in general, would be well used to this cyclical round of allegation, designed for one purpose, by sections of the media and political opponents, out of ideas on how to legitimately counter their rise in support.
It would tend to harden support more than take it away.
If it wasn't GA it would be something else. GA will leave the stage at some point and then we will be getting the sensationalist exposés on Mary Lou or Pearse or whoever succeeds him.

Creative Juices

Happyman42 wrote: »

I am not a member of SF but I don't see any shred of evidence of that tbh. SF, like republicans in general, would be well used to this cyclical round of allegation, designed for one purpose, by sections of the media and political opponents, out of ideas on how to legitimately counter their rise in support.
It would tend to harden support more than take it away.
If it wasn't GA it would be something else. GA will leave the stage at some point and then we will be getting the sensationalist exposés on Mary Lou or Pearse or whoever succeeds him.

I think you are wrong. There is no way Mary Lou or Pearse would be so divisive or untrustworthy.

Happyman42

Creative Juices wrote: »

I think you are wrong. There is no way Mary Lou or Pearse would be so divisive or untrustworthy.

The leader has never been the problem...it's the party that must be stopped. Hence the cyclical allegations...I predict the next round will be in the run up to the GE.

the_syco

Happyman42 wrote: »

Would it be that 'most people' in NI don't see them that way and that a growing number in Southern Ireland are seeing it too?

I find NI SF and RoI SF two different parties, with very different policies. NI SF actually does a good job, but RoI SF seem to go for the populist vote.

Creative Juices wrote: »

Sinn Fein know this now, the issue is how long it will take them to sort it.

He's the team mascot. Removing him will remove votes if done incorrectly. I think he needs to find himself a replacement, and officially retire. Also he can't use the replacement as a puppet, or the blowback could be extreme if found out.

Creative Juices wrote: »

I think you are wrong. There is no way Mary Lou or Pearse would be so divisive or untrustworthy.

IMO, they're both fairly new, and as such don't have such a collection of skeletons as of yet, but it's be naive to say that they had none.

Creative Juices

the_syco wrote: »

IMO, they're both fairly new, and as such don't have such a collection of skeletons as of yet, but it's be naive to say that they had none.

They might have skeletons must nothing in comparison to Adams.

I think SF would gain way more votes if Adams stepped down than the number of votes they would lose. Existing SF voters would be very loyal. It's the new voters they need to worry about to have any hope of power.

Happyman42

Creative Juices wrote: »

They might have skeletons must nothing in comparison to Adams.

I think SF would gain way more votes if Adams stepped down than the number of votes they would lose. Existing SF voters would be very loyal. It's the new voters they need to worry about to have any hope of power.

You have just demonstrated the power and danger of these 'cyclical allegations'.

Could you point to 'actual proven skeletons', not alleged ones, that have been found in Gerry's cupboard?
Mud obviously sticks for some people.

ThisRegard

Happyman42 wrote: »

The leader has never been the problem...it's the party that must be stopped. Hence the cyclical allegations...I predict the next round will be in the run up to the GE.

He's a massive problem for some people. He's an ongoing joke with his continuous denials in their eyes and as a result the party suffers.

bobbysands81

Trent Clever Ugliness wrote: »

You're not serious.. Are you?
What revolution? It was a terrorist campaign and nothing else.

The "terrorist campaign" was waged on, not by, the minority grouping in the 6 counties.

The fact that they had the temerity to fight this discrimination, oppression and right to self determination seems an issue in this country whilst the aggressor who is responsible for the discrimination and oppression are given a "free pass" whilst we pat ourselves on the back and say "Sure aren't we a great little nation, look how mature we are and how we'll all moved on and we're great friends now and we've put this silly conflict behind us".

We'll only have truly moved on and put this conflict behind us, and matured as a Nation, when we can speak openly and honestly about why this conflict happened, why people needed to stand up for their communities and why "democracy" was closed off to the minority leaving a vacuum filled with violence.

Creative Juices

Happyman42 wrote: »

You have just demonstrated the power and danger of these 'cyclical allegations'.

Could you point to 'actual proven skeletons', not alleged ones, that have been found in Gerry's cupboard?
Mud obviously sticks for some people.

Look call it whatever you like, my misplaced perception, my brainwashing by the media whatever...the fact is I don't trust him and I never will. And there are many like me.
SF need to deal with that one way or the other.

On the other hand I do really like Mary Lou, I think she is a fantastic politician. I also believe her role and her party's growth is stunted by having Adams as leader.

maccored

Denying gossip. Oh what a terrible man he is.

ThisRegard wrote: »

He's a massive problem for some people. He's an ongoing joke with his continuous denials in their eyes and as a result the party suffers.

duckcfc

Phoebas wrote: »

These guys weren't our revolutionary leaders; they were terrorists. And the Irish people consistently rejected them and their political wing all the time they were active.

Of course they were. You people have very short memories. Think back to the way they where treated by an orange state and British. IMI they where and still are revolutionary leaders in the same mould as Michael Collins, che Guevara, Fidel Castro etc... Without Adams and the IRA the Irish across the border would be still getting a bad raw deal. There was no other route to go other than take up arms and fight for basic human rights so IMO, of course they where revolutionary leaders

I'd like to know what you and others think a revolutionary leader is.

Happyman42

ThisRegard wrote: »

He's a massive problem for some people. He's an ongoing joke with his continuous denials in their eyes and as a result the party suffers.

The party is the real 'problem', lets not kid ourselves. If it wasn't allegations about GA it would be something else.
Some people can be bought and influenced by the media, that is why powerful people buy newspapers and TV stations.

maccored

Creative Juices wrote: »

SF need to deal with that one way or the other.

No. To be frank its the people who distrust a party based on hearsay that need to deal with it. It is, after all, their belief in the political bull**** that's been fed to them thats the issue.

golfball37

I've no problem with IRA kangaroo courts back in the day as that was how justice was meted out in an area living through a war with no police force. If we are to take them to task for looking after their own when it comes to a serious crime like rape then we'd have stories daily about the Gardaí & Political classes in Eire doing the same.
The real issue here is whether Adams is lying about this case.

josip

It is not "crap" about Adams.
The IRA murdered unarmed Gardai protecting the citizens of this country.
For some children Daddy never came home from work.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

The party is the real 'problem', lets not kid ourselves. If it wasn't allegations about GA it would be something else.
Some people can be bought and influenced by the media, that is why powerful people buy newspapers and TV stations.

If SF/IRA were to deal properly with the allegations, they might go away.

For example, where are all the sexual offenders and paedophiles that were expelled from Northern Ireland by the IRA kangaroo courts? And who are they?

Were they just moved on like the Catholic Church moved along priests?

maccored

golfball37 wrote: »

The real issue here is whether Adams is lying about this case.

I agree - though it would also help to have a clear definition of what he's meant to be lying/not lying about. One claim is that SF did not assist the police in maria cahils case. apparently that is untrue, though as I say, a bit more definition on what he is meant to be lying about would be handy. I dont hear that in the media ... I just hear people being amazed that republicans couldnt go to the ruc at the time. terrible people dont even know the more recent history of what went on.

Godge

golfball37 wrote: »

I've no problem with IRA kangaroo courts back in the day as that was how justice was meted out in an area living through a war with no police force. If we are to take them to task for looking after their own when it comes to a serious crime like rape then we'd have stories daily about the Gardaí & Political classes in Eire doing the same.
The real issue here is whether Adams is lying about this case.

Are you suggesting that the Gardai and the political classes down south look after their own when it comes to a serious crime like rape?

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

If SF/IRA were to deal properly with the allegations, they might go away.

For example, where are all the sexual offenders and paedophiles that were expelled from Northern Ireland by the IRA kangaroo courts? And who are they?

Were they just moved on like the Catholic Church moved along priests?

Did you read GA's statement or just cherrypick the bits that 'appall' you?
He deals with all of that fairly comprehensively.
Nobody should be dealing with this stuff in the media. What is required is that people who have issues or complaints bring them to the proper authorities and have them forensically and properly examined.

gallag

duckcfc wrote: »

Of course they were. You people have very short memories. Think back to the way they where treated by an orange state and British. IMI they where and still are revolutionary leaders in the same mould as Michael Collins, che Guevara, Fidel Castro etc... Without Adams and the IRA the Irish across the border would be still getting a bad raw deal. There was no other route to go other than take up arms and fight for basic human rights so IMO, of course they where revolutionary leaders

I'd like to know what you and others think a revolutionary leader is.

yet the IRA/SF Killed more catholics/nationalists than the UVF, UDA or the British Security Forces. Did they actually make things any better? The only thing we can say is there would certainly be more catholics alive today if the IRA didn't exist. I would have imagined moggy or major would have helped a UI become possible were it not for the blood thirsty IRA.

duckcfc

josip wrote: »

It is not "crap" about Adams.
The IRA murdered unarmed Gardai protecting the citizens of this country.
For some children Daddy never came home from work.

There was a war on!! Changed times now and to make another point, the IRA just didn't go out to target unarmed gardai for fun. They're deaths shouldn't have happened but the fact is, there was a war on and some gardai just got in the way.