Three convicted murderers working in Belfast shopping center.

Laois6556

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Because your opinion of how these criminals should be handled is emotively driven.

The justice system has seen fit that they were sentenced, served their sentences and have been released. If the justice system was emotively driven, they would have been handled by a blood thirsty lynch mob. Luckily enough, society in this part of the world doesn't work like that.

The justice system should back up the publics opinion on what punishment is adequate for various crimes. Surely no one thinks 10 years is adequate for these 3?

Mal-Adjusted

Laois6556 wrote: »

The justice system should back up the public's opinion on what punishment is adequate for various crimes.

The problem there is that "the public" don't necessarily make the best decisions. The mob mentality is dangerous and can be very emotive and not prone to much reasoned debate.. just look back over this thread any any number of others about the death penalty and you'll see why that's a terrible idea.

Laois6556 wrote: »

Surely no one thinks 10 years is adequate for these 3?

personally, no, I don't. but it doesn't matter. they're out.

Laois6556 wrote: »

I'll keep my pitchfork with me thanks and you can continue on fighting for the rights of murderers.

What an absurd remark. These people are out. All the indignation you can muster up isn't going to put them behind bars again. Weather we like it or not, criminals get out, many of them are killers. It's up to society to figure a way out to deal with them and yes, integrate them back into that society. Surely you must realize that hounding someone out of a job is detrimental to society?

Laois6556

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

The problem there is that "the public" don't necessarily make the best decisions. The mob mentality is dangerous and can be very emotive and not prone to much reasoned debate.. just look back over this thread any any number of others about the death penalty and you'll see why that's a terrible idea.


personally, no, I don't. but it doesn't matter. they're out.

Well it does matter, you just said you think 10 years was too lenient for these fellas but before that said the public shouldn't have a say in these things. No one would agree that a 10 year sentence is adequate so the justice system is clearly out of step with public opinion. It needs to be addressed.

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

What an absurd remark. These people are out. All the indignation you can muster up isn't going to put them behind bars again. Weather we like it or not, criminals get out, many of them are killers. It's up to society to figure a way out to deal with them and yes, integrate them back into that society. Surely you must realize that hounding someone out of a job is detrimental to society?

First of all we should be campaigning to change the justice system. Once they're out they should be monitored very closely, if they have changed into decent human beings then they would understand why this has to happen. Hounding these 3 out of a job is detrimental to them, not to anyone else.

Mal-Adjusted

Laois6556 wrote: »

Well it does matter, you just said you think 10 years was too lenient for these fellas but before that said the public shouldn't have a say in these things. No one would agree that a 10 year sentence is adequate so the justice system is clearly out of step with public opinion. It needs to be addressed.

And I stand by that. If you let the public decide the punishment of various crimes, you'll end up with a mob mentality. no foresight, no reasoned debate. Just a swirling mass of appalled indignation looking for a pound of flesh and inevitably the punishment won't fit the crime. Like i said before, just go look at almost any thread on the subject and you'll see calls for everything from castration to torture to rape to murder. That's why the public is unfit to dole out punishments.

Laois6556 wrote: »

First of all we should be campaigning to change the justice system. Once they're out they should be monitored very closely, if they have changed into decent human beings then they would understand why this has to happen.

I agree.

Laois6556 wrote: »

Hounding these 3 out of a job is detrimental to them, not to anyone else.

That's very shortsighted of you. If these people can't get jobs, then that's (at best) three more people to feed and shelter. I would consider that detrimental to everybody living in the U.K.

Roquentin

Laois6556 wrote: »

Well it does matter, you just said you think 10 years was too lenient for these fellas but before that said the public shouldn't have a say in these things. No one would agree that a 10 year sentence is adequate so the justice system is clearly out of step with public opinion. It needs to be addressed.



First of all we should be campaigning to change the justice system. Once they're out they should be monitored very closely, if they have changed into decent human beings then they would understand why this has to happen. Hounding these 3 out of a job is detrimental to them, not to anyone else.

i agree with you. for me they should have been in for life. Hell id even bring in the death penalty for the sex offenders and animal abusers and serial killers etc.

But there is no point in releasing them and then not letting them get on with their lives.....

CaptainInsano

Roquentin wrote: »

i agree with you. for me they should have been in for life. Hell id even bring in the death penalty for the sex offenders and animal abusers and serial killers etc.

But there is no point in releasing them and then not letting them get on with their lives.....

Would you agree that they should never have been given those jobs based on location to victim's families?

Billy86

Laois6556 wrote: »

I only said the first part and the last part of your sentence. Stop making stuff up. You actually spent nearly a page then trying to back up your lies.

So let's revert back to title question then. They are now out of jail, so any opinion you have on their sentences are irrelevant. Would you:

A) Prefer to see them be allowed get jobs to earn their own living legally for basic necessities like food and shelter.
Prefer that they were not allowed jobs, but were instead placed on welfare for the rest of their lives to have a legal means for basic necessities like food and shelter.
C) Prefer they were not allow to get jobs or claim welfare at all, and be a major risk of resorting to crimes such as fraud, theft and burglary for basic necessities such as food and shelter due to not being able to do so legally.

Roquentin

CaptainInsano wrote: »

Would you agree that they should never have been given those jobs based on location to victim's families?

im caught in two minds: on one hand what they did was awful and on the other hand they were let back into society, have paid their dues etc etc

times like this youd love stalinism. those lads would be working in some gulag in siberia now and for the remainder of their lives

bb1234567

hfallada wrote: »

What do we expect convicts to do out of prison? Sit at home in their council house,living off welfare until they die? If they are reformed, there is no harm in them working and contributing to society.

And what if you were a friend or acquanitance of one of the innocent victims who were murdered and walked into the shop to find their murderer there? Youd be happy to go in there and be served by these people , knowing they brutally murdered these people? How are any of us supposed to know theyve been rehabilitated?
I dont care what some psychiatrist says, Im never goin into a shop with that fella who murdered the poor maria mconnell girl.

Mr. CooL ICE

bb1234567 wrote: »

And what if you were a friend or acquanitance of one of the innocent victims who were murdered and walked into the shop to find their murderer there? Youd be happy to go in there and be served by these people , knowing they brutally murdered these people? How are any of us supposed to know theyve been rehabilitated?
I dont care what some psychiatrist says, Im never goin into a shop with that fella who murdered the poor maria mconnell girl.

I'm sure there is more than one place in Belfast to get your keys cut

Roquentin

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

I'm sure there is more than one place in Belfast to get your keys cut

no there was only that one place and it just happened to employ three convicted killers:pac:

bb1234567

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

I'm sure there is more than one place in Belfast to get your keys cut

Its not the keys..
I would just assume that for anyone who knew the victims, seeing these murders would be a very traumatic experience.

Irish Guitarist

Would the people who say these criminals are reformed be comfortable with the idea of one of their female family members handing the key of her front door to a rapist to get it cut?

I hate this "they paid their debt to society" nonsense. If you kill or rape someone you can never repay your debt.

bb1234567

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Would the people who say these criminals are reformed be comfortable with the idea of one of their female family members handing the key of her front door to a rapist to get it cut?

I hate this "they paid their debt to society" nonsense. If you kill or rape someone you can never repay your debt.

Exactly. And what if these guys had a job like an electrician or plumber which involved them coming into your house, I very much doubt any of the people on here who say they deserve to work again and integrate would ever employ them .

cloud493

I don't think they can be 'forgiven' in that sense. I would be a supporter of the death penalty for people like that. But as a society, we are committed to rehabilitation for these people or at least try to. What good does driving them out of a job, and onto the dole or back to crime do for anyone?

Northern Monkey

One of them fixed a broken watch strap for me recently. Did a good job too.

Laois6556

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

And I stand by that. If you let the public decide the punishment of various crimes, you'll end up with a mob mentality. no foresight, no reasoned debate. Just a swirling mass of appalled indignation looking for a pound of flesh and inevitably the punishment won't fit the crime. Like i said before, just go look at almost any thread on the subject and you'll see calls for everything from castration to torture to rape to murder. That's why the public is unfit to dole out punishments.


I agree.


That's very shortsighted of you. If these people can't get jobs, then that's (at best) three more people to feed and shelter. I would consider that detrimental to everybody living in the U.K.

Obviously the punishment handed down to rapists and murderers isn't line with public opinion. There can be a reasoned debate about it and there needs to be.
If the best option remaining is to get them jobs somewhere, it should be nowhere near where they commited their murders.

Laois6556

Billy86 wrote: »

So let's revert back to title question then. They are now out of jail, so any opinion you have on their sentences are irrelevant. Would you:

A) Prefer to see them be allowed get jobs to earn their own living legally for basic necessities like food and shelter.
Prefer that they were not allowed jobs, but were instead placed on welfare for the rest of their lives to have a legal means for basic necessities like food and shelter.
C) Prefer they were not allow to get jobs or claim welfare at all, and be a major risk of resorting to crimes such as fraud, theft and burglary for basic necessities such as food and shelter due to not being able to do so legally.

There's no mention of your lies in that post.

Laois6556

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

I'm sure there is more than one place in Belfast to get your keys cut

So this man viciously killed your relative but you should **** off to some other key cutters and leave this poor man live in peace?

bucketybuck

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Would the people who say these criminals are reformed

Who said that? You are another that has missed the entire point.

KERSPLAT!

MOD

If someone is trolling report it, don't drag the thread off topic and keep it civil lads, cheers

Mr. CooL ICE

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Would the people who say these criminals are reformed be comfortable with the idea of one of their female family members handing the key of her front door to a rapist to get it cut?

I hate this "they paid their debt to society" nonsense. If you kill or rape someone you can never repay your debt.

I'm not saying they are reformed. I don't know them, nor am I telepathic. You are assuming they aren't reformed. The only assumptions I have made are that they have served their prison sentences and the prison system has deemed them safe to be released, which they have. Whether the justice system has worked or not is a topic for another day.

Laois6556 wrote: »

So this man viciously killed your relative but you should **** off to some other key cutters and leave this poor man live in peace?

Don't try putting words in my mouth.

Billy86

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Would the people who say these criminals are reformed be comfortable with the idea of one of their female family members handing the key of her front door to a rapist to get it cut?

Are you another one of these people that gives a copy of your ID and your home address details in every time you get a key cut?

I just give them a piece of shaped metal, and a note or some coins as payment, personally.

Billy86

Laois6556 wrote: »

There's no mention of your lies in that post.

You had said you would prefer neither. And now you refuse to answer. So since they are free now and prison sentencws/death penalty arguments are completely irrelevant to this thread, which would you prefer for them - A, B or C? Jobs, dole, or neither?

Laois6556

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Don't try putting words in my mouth.

Well what did you mean by there's more than one key cutters in Belfast then?

Laois6556

Billy86 wrote: »

You had said you would prefer neither. And now you refuse to answer. So since they are free now and prison sentencws/death penalty arguments are completely irrelevant to this thread, which would you prefer for them - A, B or C? Jobs, dole, or neither?

You were asking what I hoped would happen.

Colinf1212

Ralf and Florian wrote: »

The guy who killed Maria McConnell is the most worrying.

Thanks for that. Wasn't sure which was more worrying; kicking an elderly man to death or beating a woman with a cd player to death.

Billy86

Laois6556 wrote: »

You were asking what I hoped would happen.

You were repeatedly asked what you would like to see now that they are out. You were told repeatedly that "I want them still in prison" was an irrelevant position to take and to start your own thread on it if you wanted to discuss prison sentences. Your only answers were "I hope they have unhappy lives" about if they should have jobs of not and "neither" when asked if the above example meant you wanted them on the dole or unable to make any money at all.

So... once again... do you want them a) able to get jobs, b) unable to and thus stuck on the dole for their lives, or c) to not be allowed to work or claim the dole?

Mal-Adjusted

Laois6556 wrote: »

If the best option remaining is to get them jobs somewhere, it should be nowhere near where they commited their murders.

It's a bit of a tricky subject. In theory, once you're free, you're free. That means free to go and work as you please. I know for registered pedophiles there's something about them not going within a certain distance of schools and such. That's an option but i can't see how it would be implemented in a case like murderers or violent criminals getting out. It's not as if the key cutters was across the road from the victims family's house and it's not practical to ban them from the largest city in the north on the off-chance that they might run into someone.

Laois6556

Billy86 wrote: »

You were repeatedly asked what you would like to see now that they are out. You were told repeatedly that "I want them still in prison" was an irrelevant position to take and to start your own thread on it if you wanted to discuss prison sentences. Your only answers were "I hope they have unhappy lives" about if they should have jobs of not and "neither" when asked if the above example meant you wanted them on the dole or unable to make any money at all.

So... once again... do you want them a) able to get jobs, b) unable to and thus stuck on the dole for their lives, or c) to not be allowed to work or claim the dole?

So you admit you were lying then. Where's the apology?