Three convicted murderers working in Belfast shopping center.

Roquentin · 06-10-2014 6:32pm

CaptainInsano wrote: »

Murderers, pedophiles and rapists are not normal people.
Are you seriously saying people commit crimes of this level out of boredom or anger? I go for a walk or watch TV when I'm bored. They commit these crimes because they are not right in the head.

if you could rewind the dominos of all crime, it is done because they are bored or angry. nearly all crime. nearly everything you do in your life is done because you strive to sub consciously avoid boredom. you read, watch a match, play playstation, meet a few friends to avoid boredom. Through being entertained by those things, you quash the boredom. try it. try sitting for a week staring into a wall and see how your mind reacts. you become anxious and restless.

i hate to break it to you, but the serial murderers and sex offenders are not some weird man living homeless with a big beard. they are neighbours, work colleagues, they come from your own city, they had parents. You could walk through a shopping center and they could be among you and you wouldnt know. ted bundy for instance was the most infamous serial killer in america and had a degree in psychology. the most infamous serial killer in the uk and arguably the biggest serial killer of all time was a doctor. Yes a doctor, an esteemed member of society.

So i think it is time for you to remove your Utopian goggles and realize life isnt perfect. The criminals are closer to you than you think

punisher5112 · 06-10-2014 6:32pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Why do you give out your address when getting keys cut? That's really odd.

Fair enough, so make a thread about it.

And give the victim/martyr role a rest.

Why to all above

No I wouldn't give out my address but these days it's not very difficult to find ones address and I'm well able to do my own thanks for asking.

I can have an opinion just like everyone else I just am saddened to see there are some who will side with the evil ones.

bucketybuck · 06-10-2014 6:34pm

Laois6556 wrote: »

At the end of the day you're defending the rights of murderers, that's the fact of the matter.

No I am not, that you cannot actually understand the debate is quite clear from your posts.

But hey, sure tell us again how they should never have been released in the first place. :rolleyes:

Roquentin · 06-10-2014 6:35pm

Laois6556 wrote: »

At the end of the day you're defending the rights of murderers, that's the fact of the matter.

@laois6556 when you **** up in life or when someone close to you ****s up, you can remember the other posters on this thread

Laois6556 · 06-10-2014 6:37pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

No I am not, that you cannot actually understand the debate is quite clear from your posts.

But hey, sure tell us again how they should never have been released in the first place. :rolleyes:

Tell us again how these vicious murderers should be able to live in peace.

punisher5112 · 06-10-2014 6:38pm

Normal decent people do not do what these fools did.

Who gave them any rights after what they did is also beyond me you shouldn't be looked after as well as they are.

Laois6556 · 06-10-2014 6:39pm

Roquentin wrote: »

@laois6556 when you **** up in life or when someone close to you ****s up, you can remember the other posters on this thread

If I or others do something as evil as these 3 then we don't deserve to have a normal life. Simple as that.

Holsten · 06-10-2014 6:40pm

- Have them employed, contributing to society.
- Have them shunned, and on the dole, a drain on society.
- Have them in imprisoned for life, again a drain on the tax payer.

Death is not an option and never will be, I would choose the first one as it simply makes the most sense.

Roquentin · 06-10-2014 6:40pm

Normal decent people do not do what these fools did.

normality is subjective

Who gave them any rights after what they did is also beyond me you shouldn't be looked after as well as they are.

you have a point. IMO you either lock them up for life or you let them out and allow them to resume a normal life. Whats the point in letting them out and not letting them lead a normal life. They will more than likely commit another crime...

Roquentin · 06-10-2014 6:42pm

Laois6556 wrote: »

If I or others do something as evil as these 3 then we don't deserve to have a normal life. Simple as that.

id say youd change your tune if it were your beloved son

Laois6556 · 06-10-2014 6:43pm

Roquentin wrote: »

id say youd change your tune if it were your beloved son

No I wouldn't.

Roquentin · 06-10-2014 6:44pm

Laois6556 wrote: »

No I wouldn't.

well i think you would and i am always right always ALWAYSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Laois6556 · 06-10-2014 6:47pm

Well I'm always right too so we have a problem.

Billy86 · 06-10-2014 6:47pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Why to all above

No I wouldn't give out my address but these days it's not very difficult to find ones address and I'm well able to do my own thanks for asking.

I can have an opinion just like everyone else I just am saddened to see there are some who will side with the evil ones.

Why? Ok...

1. When you get keys cut you don't have to give your name, address or anything of the sort. You give over a shaped piece of metal and a few Euro/pounds. What kind of crack CSI detective style comic book master criminals do you think these three were that they could figure out your address from the shape of your key and the denominations of coins/notes that you gave them?

2. This thread is not about the death penalty of imprisoning people until death. It is about a company that knew these three ex convicts were ex convicts and knew at least one of them had been inside for murder. Then a tabloid runs an article on it and they fired them as a result. If you want to discuss prison sentences for murder, make a different thread on it.

3. "All I will say before I am banned for life for..." is absolutely trying to paint yourself a s a victim. Quite why you feel the need to see yourself as a victim is something I can't answer, that's up to you.

Roquentin · 06-10-2014 6:49pm

Laois6556 wrote: »

Well I'm always right too so we have a problem.

we will agree to agree that i am right and call it a day:)

Billy86 · 06-10-2014 6:50pm

Roquentin wrote: »

you have a point. IMO you either lock them up for life or you let them out and allow them to resume a normal life. Whats the point in letting them out and not letting them lead a normal life. They will more than likely commit another crime...

And as the law of the land allowed them be reintegrated into society after a set amount of time, and any changes in those laws will never be retroactively mandated, any discussion about their sentences or what people feel their sentences should have been is utterly irrelevant to the point of this thread. I don't know why some people feel compelled to keep bringing it up when there is a perfect try accessible "start new thread" option on the AH main page for a reason.

Johnny D. Mudd · 06-10-2014 7:00pm

The thing is, even if they are allowed out amongst law-abiding citizens and to resume a somewhat normal life, they will still have the ghosts of their past crimes hanging over them like a dark cloud. Something that will follow them throughout the rest of their lives and that will deeply affect their relationships with others. How many do you think will trust them or even have anything to do with them? The only way they will be able to atone for their past sins is by striving to work hard for their fellow people and really make a difference to the world around them. If they truly are apologetic and looking to mend their ways, that's what they'll do. If they have no inclinations of doing so, then the rest of their lives will be a lonely one. That itself serves as a punishment and constant reminder of what they are. I know it's no consolation but that is still relevant.

punisher5112 · 06-10-2014 7:04pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Why? Ok...

1. When you get keys cut you don't have to give your name, address or anything of the sort. You give over a shaped piece of metal and a few Euro/pounds. What kind of crack CSI detective style comic book master criminals do you think these three were that they could figure out your address from the shape of your key and the denominations of coins/notes that you gave them?

2. This thread is not about the death penalty of imprisoning people until death. It is about a company that knew these three ex convicts were ex convicts and knew at least one of them had been inside for murder. Then a tabloid runs an article on it and they fired them as a result. If you want to discuss prison sentences for murder, make a different thread on it.

3. "All I will say before I am banned for life for..." is absolutely trying to paint yourself a s a victim. Quite why you feel the need to see yourself as a victim is something I can't answer, that's up to you.

CSI was great only when grissom was in it.

Now I just watch the walls dry....

ordinary_girl · 06-10-2014 7:05pm

he also ridiculously alleged that the blood on his trainers were splashes from the assault carried out by UDA thug Speers.

Such shitty journalism. It's meant to be a news piece, not an opinion piece ffs. It's really hard to take the report seriously when they're so clearly being alarmist.

Sand · 06-10-2014 7:34pm

I'm divided on this. I agree with the view that they did the crime, and served their time. I'm sympathetic to people who are trying to rehabilitate their lives. However, I don't think its possible for them to escape what they did. It's naive to think its all forgiven and forgotten. People are dead, their blood is on their hands. The families of the victims will never get over it. People will hold what they have done against them. Mark of Cain and all that. So long as their rights are not violated, I think they'll just have to man up and get on with it.

In this case, despite it being lazy, alarmist, muck raking "journalism" I don't think their rights have been violated. They were privately employed, and the employer has no obligation to employ them or give them work experience if he feels they aren't suitable members of his staff.

They're just unfortunate they didn't commit their murders on the books of an organisation - probably have a ministerial pension if they had.

CaptainInsano · 06-10-2014 8:20pm

Roquentin wrote: »

if you could rewind the dominos of all crime, it is done because they are bored or angry. nearly all crime. nearly everything you do in your life is done because you strive to sub consciously avoid boredom. you read, watch a match, play playstation, meet a few friends to avoid boredom. Through being entertained by those things, you quash the boredom. try it. try sitting for a week staring into a wall and see how your mind reacts. you become anxious and restless.

i hate to break it to you, but the serial murderers and sex offenders are not some weird man living homeless with a big beard. they are neighbours, work colleagues, they come from your own city, they had parents. You could walk through a shopping center and they could be among you and you wouldnt know. ted bundy for instance was the most infamous serial killer in america and had a degree in psychology. the most infamous serial killer in the uk and arguably the biggest serial killer of all time was a doctor. Yes a doctor, an esteemed member of society.

So i think it is time for you to remove your Utopian goggles and realize life isnt perfect. The criminals are closer to you than you think

What an idiotic post. Just put in it one sentence so I can stop discussing this with you cause you're missing every point I made. You think people commit rapes, murder and assaults out of boredom and are perfectly sound of mind? Where did I once imply anyone can't be a criminal? A doctor serial killer, what a stupid point, what reaction do you want there? ''Omg a murderer with a job!'' You haven't read any of my posts or misunderstood them. I'm for rehabilitation, but only because there's no other viable option. Your view that we need to entertain these guys because boredom will cause them to kill is laughable, anyone who kills out of boredom should never be let out of prison.

Muff_Daddy · 06-10-2014 8:22pm

Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm just completely out of sync with reality, but when I read this article, disregarding the tabloid aspect of the writing, my overriding thought is 'how in the feck can these 3 be out a decade after commiting the crimes they did'. Their sackings are inconsequential in comparison.

Reading the way this thread has gone, where the 'thanks' is going, the tone of some of the posters is quite an eye opener I have to say.

CaptainInsano · 06-10-2014 8:26pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Yes, once they were released from prison. Because their being released from prison does not have any relevance to this story - that being their firings on the basis of something deplorable they had done years before which their employees were aware of already for at least one of them. You have yet to give any solution there, if you want to discuss murderers and the death penalty or imprisonment until death, or other hypotheticals, feel free to start a different thread over it.

If someone cannot work, they go on the dole. If someone cannot claim the dole (as some have been advocating) or get a job, how do you propose they support themselves for food and shelter?

Oh well kill someone because you thought they were catholic obviously. Tie up and smash a girls head in for no reason of course. Maybe kick a pensioner to death because he wouldn't give you a fag? This are all rational decisions if you're stuck for food and money apparently.

Billy86 · 06-10-2014 8:31pm

CaptainInsano wrote: »

Oh well kill someone because you thought they were catholic obviously. Tie up and smash a girls head in for no reason of course. Maybe kick a pensioner to death because he wouldn't give you a fag? This are all rational decisions if you're stuck for food and money apparently.

What possible point are you trying to make here? You are aware that other crimes exist in the world than murder, right? I mean I can only hope you are being deliberately obtuse here.

If you don't allow someone hold a job or claim the dole, do you expect them to waste away and accept a slow, painful death from starvation. Or would you expect them to commit crimes such as petty theft, burglary, armed burglary and the likes?

Because you do know those are also crimes, right?

CaptainInsano · 06-10-2014 8:35pm

Billy86 wrote: »

What possible point are you trying to make here? You are aware that other crimes exist in the world than murder, right? I mean I can only hope you are being deliberately obtuse here.

If you don't allow someone hold a job or claim the dole, do you expect them to waste away and accept a slow, painful death from starvation. Or would you expect them to commit crimes such as petty theft, burglary, armed burglary and the likes?

Because you do know those are also crimes, right?

We are discussing these 3 men who committed murder obviously, seeing as that's what the thread is about. The post you quoted was in reference to them. And it was in response to the other poster who said that if they murder again it's because they lost their job. Not because they are not rehabilitated. Reading back through posts will help.

Roquentin · 06-10-2014 8:37pm

CaptainInsano wrote: »

What an idiotic post. Just put in it one sentence so I can stop discussing this with you cause you're missing every point I made. You think people commit rapes, murder and assaults out of boredom and are perfectly sound of mind? Where did I once imply anyone can't be a criminal? A doctor serial killer, what a stupid point, what reaction do you want there? ''Omg a murderer with a job!'' You haven't read any of my posts or misunderstood them. I'm for rehabilitation, but only because there's no other viable option. Your view that we need to entertain these guys because boredom will cause them to kill is laughable, anyone who kills out of boredom should never be let out of prison.

Man is the only animal for whom his own existence is a problem which he has to solve and from which he cannot escape.

Erik Fromm

again i hate to break it to you, but criminals dont commit crimes because of lack of religion, because they are mentally unsound, because of status, because of gender, because of lack of education etc. No. They commit crimes because they simply choose to.

Freud said love and work, because love and work, keeps the mind active and prevents any anxieties creeping in. The same applies to criminals. Because they are in employment, they would be busy and have less time sitting around doing nothing. Now because these three men are unemployed, and bored and angry, the chances have jumped of them committing crime again.

By crime i mean something petty like robbery.....

Muff_Daddy · 06-10-2014 8:38pm

Billy86 wrote: »

What possible point are you trying to make here? You are aware that other crimes exist in the world than murder, right? I mean I can only hope you are being deliberately obtuse here.

There exists a hierarchy of crimes ranging from non-minor to minor.

If you can't grasp this concept, it's you who is being obtuse.

CaptainInsano · 06-10-2014 8:41pm

Roquentin wrote: »

Man is the only animal for whom his own existence is a problem which he has to solve and from which he cannot escape.

Erik Fromm

again i hate to break it to you, but criminals dont commit crimes because of lack of religion, because they are mentally unsound, because of status, because of gender, because of lack of education etc. No. They commit crimes because they simply choose to.

Freud said love and work, because love and work, keeps the mind active and prevents any anxieties creeping in. The same applies to criminals. Because they are in employment, they would be busy and have less time sitting around doing nothing. Now because these three men are unemployed, and bored and angry, the chances have jumped of them committing crime again.

By crime i mean something petty like robbery.....

Changed your tune with that last one. I can't get into a debate about psychology, all I know is decent mentally healthy people don't commit serious crimes out of boredom or for something to do. If you think otherwise, well we can't change eachothers mind either way.

thomur · 06-10-2014 11:29pm

Saw this on the news and thought I would be the only person to think that they deserved a second chance. Glad to see that I'm not the only person, although Im sure its very traumatic for the relatives of the victims and perhaps the people who use the shop.

Billy86 · 06-10-2014 11:42pm

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

There exists a hierarchy of crimes ranging from non-minor to minor.

If you can't grasp this concept, it's you who is being obtuse.

There is no concept to grasp here.

These people committed murders. They served the sentence that the courts saw fit for them and were released. If anyone has any issue with this, they can feel free to make another thread about it. This thread is about them being fired from their jobs as a result of an awful piece of tabloid journalism, when their employer had already know that they were even convicts and knew at least one of them had been in for murder. This thread is not about prison sentences or the death penalty.

So now if someone says "good they were fired, they should not be allowed work" that means their only real other legal option is the dole. If that same person says "no, they should not be allowed that either" then what alternative means would these three man have for food and shelter? Crime. As in theft, burglary, fraud, etc. That would be their only recourse... if you cannot work and xenon claim welfare, you have no legal means of earning money. It is that simple. I really don't know why this is so hard for some people to understand, other than being deliberately obtuse by claiming the only crime they will resort to is murder in that instance. Murder doesn't put food on the table (unless the person was carrying a fair deal of cash), burglary and theft do.

Do you get this? No work + no welfare = no options for basic necessities, barring begging and/or crime. It is really very, very simple.

Three convicted murderers working in Belfast shopping center.

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