Malaysia Airlines plane shot down in Ukraine near Russian border[Mod warning post#193

Grandpa Hassan

Obama states that the missile came from separatist controlled territory. Wherther he has evidence for that is secondary to putins response IMO. Putins response is not 'no it didnt' or 'there is no evidence'. It was 'well, it's the Ukrainians fault for creating the environment in which this could happen'. We are never going to see the proof. And even if we did, the supporters of one side or the other will claim it is fabricated.

I am drawing an inference from the sudden un-Putin like behaviour of Putin. Not like him to allow himself to get beaten up like this without saying a word

Tenger

My opinion on the possible perpetrators is;
The Ukrainians have aircraft while the Separatists do not.
Thus the Separatists are the most likely to shoot at overflying aircraft.

Following on from that the Separatists would need assistance to operate and use the SAM system.

If the Separatists are innocence then why restrict OCSE access to the wreckage?

jimeryan22

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Obama states that the missile came from separatist controlled territory. Wherther he has evidence for that is secondary to putins response IMO. Putins response is not 'no it didnt' or 'there is no evidence'. It was 'well, it's the Ukrainians fault for creating the environment in which this could happen'. We are never going to see the proof. And even if we did, the supporters of one side or the other will claim it is fabricated.

I am drawing an inference from the sudden un-Putin like behaviour of Putin. Not like him to allow himself to get beaten up like this without saying a word

I hear where your coming from.. I can only think like this mate... Putin unlike Obama and a lot of the other leaders that shoot their mouths off, has military background, namely he knows what it's all about... I'm thinking he's going quiet because he realises how close we are to a tinder box situation namely a possible world war being just on the horizon...
All I'm saying is like what I read someone else said on this thread earlier..
If Obama or anyone else had any concrete proof already they'd be jumping up and down like a maniac with it

Peregrine

jimeryan22 wrote: »

But I haven't stated any thing I claim to be fact either..

Are you sure?

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Plus... Is it now fact at this point the US state department instigated the Ukraine crisis, not Russia...

jimeryan22

Either way.. Please don't start the attacks.. Or start throwing remarks like conspiracy around..

For this plane attack I've seen in news
Plane shot down by plane
Plane shot down from missle in separatist held area
Plane shot down from missle in Ukrainian held area
Russians shot plane down
Planes had been told not to fly over that area for last two months
US planes only told in last 2 days not to fly over area,since this plane shot down
Black boxes missing
Black boxes recovered
So what I'm saying is.. Let's wait for proper facts

murphaph

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Let's wait for proper facts

May never get them. Crime scene is already completely contaminated. May just have to use some old fashioned common sense and read between the lines.

Putin knows who did this. Probably knows the guy's name already who pulled the trigger so to speak. If this was a Ukrainian missile Putin would have the evidence and would be out all guns blazing. His silence is the key here.

All logic points to this being a rebel fired missile at what they thought was a military aircraft. They didn't intend bringing down a civilian jet, but that's what they did The Ukraine has widespread support for its actions in Eastern Ukraine. Killing 300 civilians from around the world does nothing for them and they are in control of the skies there with control over ATC, so they would have known exactly what that 777 was. The stakes are far far too high for this to be some fake attack orchestrated by Ukraine to frame the rebels. The area is being heavily monitored by satellites. The Ukraine would know such a crazy plot would be found out.

The outstanding questions then to my mind are:

Where did the rebels get the missile(s)? If they are Ukrainian then the Ukraine has questions to answer as to why it didn't destroy this equipment as a matter of urgency? If they are not Ukrainian then they are Russian and the implications of that I don't even want to think about.

The Netherlands will not remain quiet if it turns out that Russian supplied weapons killed 200 of their citizens.

Tenger

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Very good points... But. Maybe they fear a "fit up'..

So its "Lets act as if we covering up evidence just in case they think we are covering up evidence......."

jimeryan22

Tenger wrote: »

So its "Lets act as if we covering up evidence just in case they think we are covering up evidence......."

Of course, this is also possible, I'm not denying it

Grandpa Hassan

Leaving any facts, or absence of such, aside. It is the perception of the rest of Europe and the US that thugs directed by Putin are blocking access to the crash site, destroying any incriminating evidence, and taking personal belongings.

Rightly or not, that is the perception, and is putting Putin on the back foot and making him look weak. He needs to get to grips with this, which may mean admitting that he has lost control of the rebels that he has been supporting. Of course that would mean he has to cut them off and leave them to the mercy of the Ukrainians. Unless he is able to bring them to heel, I don't know how else he stops the perception of him getting worse and worse.

Grandpa Hassan

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Although I agree to a point.. I can't say you speak for the perception of the European and US populations.. It's the perception of the bureaucrats alright..

And every news outlet that I have seen or read

Tenger

folbotcar wrote: »

Oh dear, sin city and SR get holidays but up pops Jimeryan to spout much of the same drivel. Now if I was one for conspiracy theories...............

To compound it he links to the Guardian that left wing rag and apologist for Putin's behaviour. On the one hand we're all dupes for believing western media propaganda but the Guardian's OK apparently.

I love his theory that the whole Ukraine thing is a ploy so they can bomb Syria, which never happened! Those Americans! You'd never be up to them. Always plotting the downfall of dictators. Shocking altogether!

Careful there folbotcar. Sin City and SR ignored Mod instructions. Hence the ban.

I will ask jimeryan22 to stay on topic re MH17 and to desist from bringing in world govts, other current affairs and geo-politics to this discussion.

On the other hand I would ask everyone to debate/argue the post not attack poster.

Rhys Essien

murphaph wrote: »

Where did the rebels get the missile(s)? If they are Ukrainian then the Ukraine has questions to answer as to why it didn't destroy this equipment as a matter of urgency? If they are not Ukrainian then they are Russian and the implications of that I don't even want to think about.

The Netherlands will not remain quiet if it turns out that Russian supplied weapons killed 200 of their citizens.

I suprised that so many people are still asking this question.There is a lot of sources saying that the rebels captured at least one BUK missile battery,if not more,on 29 June from Ukrainian forces in Donetsk.

Scroll down through Twitter here.
https://twitter.com/search?q=buk%20donetsk&src=typd

On Russian news agency page here
http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1287030

Popoutman

Assuming at this point that it was a Ukrainian rebel unit assisted by Russian military personnel or Russian intelligence officers (as appears quite likely), that shot down this passenger jet by mistake with captured Ukrainian hardware, and that passenger jet was operating correctly within the terms of the local ATC, what would people like to see as regards directions of the investigation and what are we expecting to happen from an aviation point of view?

Personally I'd like to see the operators of that SA-11 battery brought to court for a fair trial, as well as any Russian military/intelligence advisors if they were involved in the situation or decision tree. I know full well that the likelihood of that happening are somewhat remote at this stage given how it appears that the aviation crash experts are being prevented in discharging their duties,and it it appears that the bodies are not being treated correctly (reports of being dragged around instead of being treated with the deserved dignity). I understand that crash sites in conflict areas are always going to be difficult to handle correctly.

Are we expecting to see larger and more comprehensive no-fly zones around areas of local conflict based on this precedent, not just ceilings of no-fly zones?

Will Malaysian Airlines survive the fallout from this incident?

Will the aviation insurance companies put more pressure on airlines to be more cautious about their routing?

expectationlost

why did us and euro air regulators have warnings for an area that was no longer actively disputed and none for an area that was actively disputed https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/490182716953214976

Elmer Blooker

So, we are being told that separatists shot down the plane as they thought it was a military transport. Why would a military transport be traveling east at 33,000 feet so close to the Russian border (see map above) where would it have landed? Where was it's intended destination when the fighting is going on in Lugansk far to the north and Donetsk to the west?
Something is not adding up as far as I'm concerned

dealhunter1985

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/19/mh17-armed-rebels-chaos-corpses-ukraine

I kind of feel sick after reading that article.
I cannot understand how the involved governments can stand idly by if there is any truth to it!
Jesus these poor innocents were blown out of the sky and their bodies are simply left in the fields to rot.
How inhuman can these rebels be to deny them of a proper burial! Its f*****g disgusting.

folbotcar

Meanwhile the bodies of the victims of the this atrocity like lie rotting and scattered across the country side. While the apologists make up stories to protect their illusions.

It's sickening to protect people like that.

Ban me Tenger by all means. I would be proud of it as a pilot and long time aviation enthusiast.

Jack1985

It's sickening to protect people like that.

Ban me Tenger by all means. I would be proud of it as a pilot and long time aviation enthusiast.

You'll only get a ban if you ask for it. Plenty of us here support your view, but it's the people who are winding you up and who you are responding to will get you banned. Just leave them have their episodes it's what's best for that sort.

BorneTobyWilde

I believe the Russia's shot it down. Flight was approaching their border and they engaged it, they thought it was targeting the forces they have amassed on the border.
No one else had the know how to bring it down. The whole story is a smoke screen.

lord lucan

Jack1985 wrote: »

You'll only get a ban if you ask for it. Plenty of us here support your view, but it's the people who are winding you up and who you are responding to will get you banned. Just leave them have their episodes it's what's best for that sort.

And don't forget that Boards has an ignore feature so you can read in blissful ignorance of their posts(unless someone keeps quoting them!).

tom_k

It seems to me that the skillset required to operate the Buk weapons system could well have come from Ukrainian army personnel that have defected to the separatist side.

This article mentions soldiers facing a fight, flee or defect dilemma at an air defence base last March. It's not inconceivable that soldiers here or with other units have been trained on the Buk and used their knowledge to operate the weapon against MH17.

http://time.com/17356/ukraine-troops-in-crimea-face-dilemma-to-defect-flee-or-fight/

Also the Buk system has been around for decades (with upgrades and modifications etc.) meaning there may be many more that would have a working knowledge of it and the ability to carry out repairs if it had been disabled before abandonment by Ukrainian forces.

The most disturbing point I've noted in the media since this incident is the regular reporting of apparent intoxication among the separatists. If this is true, I'd have to assume they didn't just start drinking the moment MH17 came down.

Coupled with the obvious lack of a clear command structure and the seemingly easy access to heavy weaponry, this was an incident waiting to happen. There may not have been any clear (or sober) thinking happening when a high altitude passenger jet was detected flying toward Russia.

My thoughts and best wishes are with the families and friends of the MH17 victims. I sincerely hope that the bodies of their loved ones will soon be treated with the respect they deserve.

Jack1985

Also the Buk system has been around for decades (with upgrades and modifications etc.) meaning there may be many more that would have a working knowledge of it and the ability to carry out repairs if it had been disabled before abandonment by Ukrainian forces.

The most disturbing point I've noted in the media since this incident is the regular reporting of apparent intoxication among the separatists. If this is true, I'd have to assume they didn't just start drinking the moment MH17 came down.

Coupled with the obvious lack of a clear command structure and the seemingly easy access to heavy weaponry, this was an incident waiting to happen. There may not have been any clear (or sober) thinking happening when a high altitude passenger jet was detected flying toward Russia.

My thoughts and best wishes are with the families and friends of the MH17 victims. I sincerely hope that the bodies of their loved ones will soon be treated with the respect they deserve.

Without taking issue at yourself (I'm not) it annoys me how this group are actually being treated like some sort of an army. They have about as much of a command structure as an outlawed biker gang. This crowd are made up of thugs and neo-nazi's, the fact there half pis*ed all the time is hardly surprising, given the location there in. Russians are famous for it.

The point you make about a defector from the Ukraine army using a Buk he was maybe trained on is indeed interesting and definitely possible, as in any conflict there are always defectors. But the key element here is that Putin's credibility is now destroyed and he has through his support of the rebels created an International crisis which is very much continuing to boil (whether Intentional or not). These separatists fired using a Russian Buk, there's overwhelming evidence of that and not now just from the Ukrainian authorities but from reuters and alike who have photos. The reaction of Putin, ''It's the fault of the country where it happened'' is really a clear admission the reason for this the Russians believe is due to what happened in Kiev back in February, they know who holds responsibility and who provided the Buk. And in typical Russian fashion they're media are replicating just how staggeringly corrupt and how much propaganda still goes on there these days, ffs Russia Today (RT) immediately blamed the Ukranians saying it was an attempt on Putin (yes that's where that conspiracy emerged from) and it's western recruited journalists are resigning en masse. Give it a few weeks, Putin will cut of the rebels and that's when things get really dangerous.

expectationlost

they shot down other planes heading in that direction



the ukranians were trying to say they were shot down by a russian jet, so busy trying to blame it on russians (is that why air regulators were so slow to react) that they didn't look to their own stolen weapons, still it was probably that russian igor guy to blame, cazy idiot


did you see the ukrainains accidentally shot down a civilian plane in 2001 when testing a buk missile launcher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_1812

eatmyshorts

expectationlost wrote: »

why did us and euro air regulators have warnings for an area that was no longer actively disputed and none for an area that was actively disputed https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/490182716953214976

When the Russians annexed Crimea, they issued notams saying that the Simferopol FIR was now controlled by Russian ATC. The Ukrainians and ICAO disputed this and said control was still the responsibility of Ukraine ATC. Therefore the whole Simferopol FIR was notam'd as a warning area due to the lack of definitive ATC authority.

Five Lamps

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

So, we are being told that separatists shot down the plane as they thought it was a military transport. Why would a military transport be traveling east at 33,000 feet so close to the Russian border (see map above) where would it have landed? Where was it's intended destination when the fighting is going on in Lugansk far to the north and Donetsk to the west?
Something is not adding up as far as I'm concerned

There's a pretty straightforward answer - the separatists shot it down in error. An inexperienced or half trained operator may have either thought it was the cargo plane or selected the wrong target or while aiming at a cargo plane the missile ended up tracking the airliner. It is more than possible that the downing was not deliberate but due to due to incompetence or ineptitude.

Deliberate or not the persons who pressed the button shoulder the blame. Given the behaviour of the separatists it's pretty clear they are trying to conceal evidence and Putin's silence is now deafening.

Some sort of rapid deployment UN force needs to be put in there to secure the area and allow a proper recovery and investigation to take place.

jimeryan22

Is anybody watching this **** on sky news..? It really is actually unbelievable

Five Lamps

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Well you and the rest of them don your uniforms suit up and go and sort it out then...
All this crazy talk I'm seeing reported and posted on here the last couple of days since this plane was shot down is fecking ridiculous.. They're bringing you's to war and no one seems to see it..
You's want war with Russia do you's..? Off yas go then..

Well you can see that Russia by virtue of it's silence is trying to step away from their friends in Ukraine.

Clearly some international body needs to at least make some attempt to turn up here. The worlds media are already there, there are some OCSE folks but no representatives of the Dutch, Malaysians etc. At the very least they should be parked on the roadside and creating a scene. Is the Head of the Donesk republic going to risk killing more people on camera?

jimeryan22

Five Lamps wrote: »

Well you can see that Russia by virtue of it's silence is trying to step away from their friends in Ukraine.

Clearly some international body needs to at least make some attempt to turn up here. The worlds media are already there, there are some OCSE folks but no representatives of the Dutch, Malaysians etc. At the very least they should be parked on the roadside and creating a scene. Is the Head of the Donesk republic going to risk killing more people on camera?

As you have just pointed out.. The medias there.. I've been watching the same idiot reporting from the crash site on sky news for the last two days.. There's no doubt the outrage is right in the sense there's not shells and fire openly constantly going on there, it looks to be in the more rural areas to me so there's no reason why at least bodies could be given the respect due and collected and identified...

jimeryan22

Sorry didn't mean to be rude by the way.. It's just papers saying "putins dead" and the way in general the media is pointing the fingers at Russia without anything being concrete yet with regards to showing of evidence.. That's not reporting. That's propaganda pure and simple.. Those of us old enough remember plenty of it..
Just hope family's get back their dead soon ...

expectationlost

Shaun Walker @shaunwalker7 · 8h

MH17 bodies - an unverifiable number - are being held in refrigerated wagons at Torez station. The stench is unbearable. Lots of armed men.