Malaysia Airlines plane shot down in Ukraine near Russian border[Mod warning post#193

Sully

What's interesting about this is the wide variations of reporting on what's going on.

A lot of reporting that bodies were gone missing but a gawk on Twitter had other journalists confirming where they were just being stored appropriately by the rebels and were not 'missing' per se. More bodies are being found and stored as the day goes on. Talk about black boxes being taken, denied by rebels in the early days but now confirmed that they picked
them up today (one of the journos have a picture of the box being found) and they will hand them over.

Sky News were rooting through someones luggage in their report on TV, but did apologise that it was inappropriate. This follows numerous reports of journalists not being respectful of the crash site.

murphaph

Not to downplay the deaths of 300 odd people (doesn't matter where they came from or what passports they held) but I can't help but feel the situation would be very different if it had been an Air France, British Airways or Lufthansa aircraft that was downed.

smurfjed

Considering this atrocity, is anyone concerned about flights operating overhead Iraq and Syria?

Jack1985

murphaph wrote: »

Rhetoric was to be expected from the politians. What did you expect. If it had been a European flag carrier however I suspect things would be a lot more serious right now.

I don't think so at all the fact there were over 210 EU Citizens and nearly 90 other foreign nationals murdered makes this very serious. As it is currently being treated.

Five Lamps

Sully wrote: »

What's interesting about this is the wide variations of reporting on what's going on.

A lot of reporting that bodies were gone missing but a gawk on Twitter had other journalists confirming where they were just being stored appropriately by the rebels and were not 'missing' per se. More bodies are being found and stored as the day goes on. Talk about black boxes being taken, denied by rebels in the early days but now confirmed that they picked
them up today (one of the journos have a picture of the box being found) and they will hand them over.

Sky News were rooting through someones luggage in their report on TV, but did apologise that it was inappropriate. This follows numerous reports of journalists not being respectful of the crash site.

Granted that it's a remote area but it's now 4 days after the event and it seems that the recovery of bodies is only starting in earnest. News reports have said that bodies have been left at the side of the road in intense heat. Now that they are a train, who knows where they go next. Unfortunately, the bodies are also "evidence" and the cause of death and substances are part of the investigation. Granted that this area is remote and would be of limited means to respond to an event like this (even in peacetime). Not sure if you can say what is happening is an "appropriate" response.

Sky News have done a big service by reporting from the site but certainly did themselves no favours rooting through belongings like that.

BTW does anybody know if they guys in "emergency worker" uniform that are shown in TV are official Ukrainian recovery workers? Seems puzzling that they are operating there unless they are "former" employees.

Also on the "black box" recovery. Tv shows a guy casually walking across a field with a recorder in his arms. How easy is it for the average emergency worker to retrieve one of these i.e. disconnect it from whatever wreckage it's in. Also if the crash happens on land do they still 'ping' i.e is it possible to work out where they are?

Certainly agree that if this airliner belonged to an EU state it would be a different reaction altogether.

smurfjed

That level of missile technology doesn't exist in Iraq, Syria could be a different story.

OK, but considering that one group is in the process of taking over both countries, can you say that things will stay in Syria? I'm also somewhat concerned about what the US left in Iraq to assist their "allies".

Up to now, all that we had to worry about were MANPADS and AK's... but at least we stay far away from those two countries.

brandon_flowers

Five Lamps wrote: »

Granted that it's a remote area but it's now 4 days after the event and it seems that the recovery of bodies is only starting in earnest. News reports have said that bodies have been left at the side of the road in intense heat. Now that they are a train, who knows where they go next. Unfortunately, the bodies are also "evidence" and the cause of death and substances are part of the investigation. Granted that this area is remote and would be of limited means to respond to an event like this (even in peacetime). Not sure if you can say what is happening is an "appropriate" response.

Sky News have done a big service by reporting from the site but certainly did themselves no favours rooting through belongings like that.

BTW does anybody know if they guys in "emergency worker" uniform that are shown in TV are official Ukrainian recovery workers? Seems puzzling that they are operating there unless they are "former" employees.

Also on the "black box" recovery. Tv shows a guy casually walking across a field with a recorder in his arms. How easy is it for the average emergency worker to retrieve one of these i.e. disconnect it from whatever wreckage it's in. Also if the crash happens on land do they still 'ping' i.e is it possible to work out where they are?

Certainly agree that if this airliner belonged to an EU state it would be a different reaction altogether.

For what is happening on the ground this does not make one blind bit of difference. It is a war zone so there is no chance that political pressure will increase or improve the recovery of bodies or data recorders. People are getting carried away because we have far more media access than we had years ago. The media has changed but war is still war. Sky and CNN might be on the ground but they are 5 feet away from the end of an AK-47 at the same time. There is no way any other countries are going to interfere on the ground even if it was a European airline brought down.

The US frankly is giving good sound bites but not really doing anything. Hillary Clinton says it "should outrage Europe" and John Kerry is blaming "drunken separatists"

Putin is completely in control and there is **** all the West is doing in reality. He is the bully in the classroom.

the_monkey

The black boxes have been recovered or what ?

Didn't one get moved to Moscow ?

vidor

the_monkey wrote: »

The black boxes have been recovered or what ?

Didn't one get moved to Moscow ?

Yes but this is Ukraine's problem and Russia have nothing to do with this.

Tenger

jimeryan22 wrote: »

........ I mean, they can hardly start talking nonscence when US state department initiated Ukraine crisis in the first place... .

Anymore of this off topic trolling and a ban will be handed out.

This thread is discussion of the MH17 shootdown not a geopolitical discussion thread.

fits

I just cant get my head around the fact that passenger aircraft were flying through a zone where military aircraft were being shot down. It seems absolutely crazy! Someone must have known that missiles were in the area that had that capability and were being used.. Major mistake made.

I am also livid. 298 people going about their own business and nothing to do with any of this. Its absolutely disgusting. I am sure people in the Netherlands and the relatives of deceased are very angry.

eatmyshorts

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Your dead right... Warnings were there since April...

http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/the-faas-notice-prohibiting-airline-flights-over-ukraine/374622/

Those warnings specifically relate to the Simferopol FIR only, as I explained in a previous post.
There were no active warnings in relation to the other FIR's.

Calina

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Ah well sure. We'll just ignore what's going on in the region for the last 6 months and fly over an area that everybody on the planet knows there is aa battery's all over the shop...

The important point here is not whether they have anti-aircraft guns or not - the matter is the range of the anti-aircraft machinery. I don't think it's fair to say everyone knew this is a probably for the last six months. A few people may have known that they'd got their hands on functional Buk about a month ago but clearly not enough people.

33,000 feet is a long way up. Getting a missile up there requires much more than the MANPADs that they were known to have.

What we know now is that they have - or at least had - the capability. What would be useful to find out is who provided it.

Jawgap

Port side cockpit section with probably shrapnel damage.....consistent with an SA-11 (Buk / Buk-M1) detonation......

jimeryan22

Calina wrote: »

The important point here is not whether they have anti-aircraft guns or not - the matter is the range of the anti-aircraft machinery. I don't think it's fair to say everyone knew this is a probably for the last six months. A few people may have known that they'd got their hands on functional Buk about a month ago but clearly not enough people.

33,000 feet is a long way up. Getting a missile up there requires much more than the MANPADs that they were known to have.

What we know now is that they have - or at least had - the capability. What would be useful to find out is who provided it.

Firstly.. How long is Ukraine crisis going on..? Since November..?
Secondly who dint know..?
I'm sure most know Ukraine military has Russian made bukk launchers.. So people can't keep giving it this foresight bollox.. Of course since the conflict has been going this has been a possibility..

Stimpyone

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Apparently. Putins plane was flying near the same route, it's been said there's a possibility somebody was trying to shoot putins plane down and hit airliner instead...

It's been debunked. The only media source promoting the story was the farcical Russia Today and even they've retracted it. Air forceski One was no where near the area and Putin himself was safely tucked up in Mordor.

Peregrine

jimeryan22 wrote: »

I'm sure most know Ukraine military has Russian made bukk launchers..

There's a huge difference between the Ukrainian military having them and rebels having them.

They're trained to use it properly. And why would the military use them at all when the rebels have no aircraft? If the military did lose one to the rebels, it's a completely different story. They would share some of the blame for not reporting it.

If Russia provided the rebels with the missiles, well, then..I don't even want to think about that.

jimeryan22 wrote: »

I've seen it written possibly a deliberate act by Ukraine to frame Russia.. Makes a bit of sense

And the normal thing for the rebels and Russia to do in that situation would be to act like they're covering up. Right.

jimeryan22

Calina wrote: »

All these things you've seen.

Amazing.

Is there anything that would actually convince you that the plane was actually shot down by rebel militants in the East Ukraine who made a deadly aircraft identification error?

Why do some of people have to have such an attitude..? This is a discussion forum where people generally say what they've read,seen, or heard regarding the thread subject.. Wind your neck in there will ya

knucklehead6

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Why do some of people have to have such an attitude..? This is a discussion forum where people generally say what they've read,seen, or heard regarding the thread subject.. Wind your neck in there will ya

there's a difference between discussing and applying some thought to your posts.

If i said i had heard that it was people from the future who came back and took everyone off the plane into the future and left bodies behind them to make it look as if the plane crashed killing everyone on board when they are actually living a life of luxury 500 years from now it'd sound a tad silly wouldn't it?

Same as anyone saying that Ukraine had a reason to target this jet... it sounds silly. No one had a reason to target it, and it is a horrible accidental tragedy.

Stimpyone

jimeryan22 wrote: »

I've seen it written possibly a deliberate act by Ukraine to frame Russia.. Makes a bit of sense

Except that it wasn't. The BUK launcher in question was captured in Crimea by Soviet Russian Ukrainian separatists and handed over to the err other Ukrainian separatists.

It was photographed presumably moving into firing position. The US tracked the launch and trajectory of the missile which intersected the route of MH.

The Ukrainian separatists then posted videos of a black smoke covered crash site on their facebook/blog/twitter claiming that they'd shot down a military transport.

Meanwhile Ukrainian military intercepts a conversation between a separatist commander and Russian intelligence officer discussing the shoot down and subsequent realization of the error they've made. All facebook/blog/twitter posts on the subject are deleted.

The launcher was then photographed again covered by a trap and on the back of a transporter headed for the Russian boarder.

Putin stays stum..

Stallingrad

Jawgap wrote: »

Port side cockpit section with probably shrapnel damage.....consistent with an SA-11 (Buk / Buk-M1) detonation......

That's a terrible image that really brings home how tragic this was. If that is shrapnel damage you get a sense of what horror those men, women and children endured in their final seconds. I've no doubt many died falling to earth.

With all this speculation going in circles about who did it there seems to be very little focus on the actual victims or their families.

I would almost propose locking this thread for 24 hours to let everyone calm down, and as a mark of respect for those lost.

jimeryan22

Stimpyone wrote: »

Except that it wasn't. The BUK launcher in question was captured in Crimea by Soviet Russian Ukrainian separatists and handed over to the err other Ukrainian separatists.

It was photographed presumably moving into firing position. The US tracked the launch and trajectory of the missile which intersected the route of MH.

The Ukrainian separatists then posted videos of a black smoke covered crash site on their facebook/blog/twitter claiming that they'd shot down a military transport.

Meanwhile Ukrainian military intercepts a conversation between a separatist commander and Russian intelligence officer discussing the shoot down and subsequent realization of the error they've made. All facebook/blog/twitter posts on the subject are deleted.

The launcher was then photographed again covered by a trap and on the back of a transporter headed for the Russian boarder.

Putin stays stum..

This is all hearsay... Where's the proof???? The whole world would be sick looking at it by now if US or anyone had anything.. Radar graphs, satellite photos.. But. Nothing..
The intelligence conversation your harping about has also been proved to have been made the day before... So...?
No proof anywhere. But you's are all so sure...

http://praag.org/?p=14839

knucklehead6

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Hardly.. I just can't see how with the feeling towards Russia the past few months how people can think Putin stupid enough to bring war to Russia's doorstep... Whereas I could quite easily see how it could be done by (someone) to have Russia take the blame. That's all..

But most people accept that this airliner was NOT deliberately targeted, and instead was shot down in error.

knucklehead6

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Your talking for most people are you..?
And on what facts are you basing this ..?
How do you and most people know this...?

Yes, I am talking for most people.
I am basing it on the facts that there were a number of ukranian air force aircraft shot down that day, and people were probably getting trigger happy. i'm basing it on the fact that a radar contact 6 miles high looks similar enough to any other radar contact. And i'm basing it on the hope that no one is crazy enough to shoot down an unarmed civilian airliner deliberately, and with out orders.

jimeryan22

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

There ARE concrete facts.
Rebel forces have been recorded discussing their mistaken shoot down of the passenger plane which they thought was a Ukrainian military plane.
We know that Russia has been training, supplying and arming the separatists in the region.
We know that sophisticated anti-aircraft missiles have been used to take down a series of Ukrainian military jets in recent weeks and days and we know the MH17 was hit by ground fire before it crashed.

So cut the crap please.

Your theory that the Ukrainian government would shoot down a civilian passenger plane to frame the rebels is transparently ludicrous.

Cut your own crap ...

if youd been paying as much attention as you think you would know like everyone else the tape is a proven fake.....!!! Bits of recordings put together and made a day before the crash ........ so......???

jimeryan22

And besides if your so sure of your concrete facts why are they not being broadcast day and night on the worlds media......???? Where are these concrete facts...? Sources please

highlydebased

Malaysian prime minister managed to strike a deal with how the investigation can proceed...
https://www.facebook.com/najibrazak?fref=ts

PRIME MINISTER NAJIB RAZAK STATEMENT ON MH17 AGREEMENT

In recent days, we have been working behind the scenes to establish contact with those in charge of the MH17 crash site.

That contact has now been made. Under difficult and fluid circumstances, we have been discussing the problems that have occupied us all: securing vital evidence from the aircraft, launching an independent investigation, and above all recovering the remains of those who lost their lives.

Tonight, we have established the basis of an agreement to do just that.

Earlier this evening I spoke to Alexander Borodai, who is in command of the region where the tragedy occurred. We have agreed the following:

· Firstly, the remains of 282 people, currently in Torez, will be moved by train to Kharkiv, where they will be handed over to representatives from the Netherlands. The train will depart this evening Ukraine time, and will be accompanied by six Malaysian members of the recovery team. The remains will then be flown to Amsterdam on board a Dutch C130 Hercules, together with the Malaysian team. Following any necessary forensic work, the remains of Malaysian citizens will then be flown home to Malaysia.



· Secondly, at approximately 9pm tonight Ukraine time, the two black boxes will be handed over to a Malaysian team in Donetsk, who will take custody of them.



· Thirdly, independent international investigators will be guaranteed safe access to the crash site to begin a full investigation of the incident.

I must stress that although agreement has been reached, there remain a number of steps required before it is completed.

There is work still to be done, work which relies on continued communication in good faith. Mr Borodai and his people have so far given their co-operation.

I ask that all parties continue to work together to ensure that this agreement is honoured; that the remains of our people are returned, that the black box is handed over, and that the international team is granted full access to the site.

Only then can the investigation into MH17 truly begin; only then can the victims be afforded the respect they deserve. We need to know what caused the plane to crash, and who was responsible for it, so that justice may be done.

In recent days, there were times I wanted to give greater voice to the anger and grief that the Malaysian people feel. And that I feel. But sometimes, we must work quietly in the service of a better outcome.

I understand that for the families, nothing can undo this damage. The lives taken cannot be given back; the dignity lost cannot be regained.

My heart reaches out to those whose loved ones were lost on MH17. We hope and pray that the agreement reached tonight helps bring them a clear step towards closure.

ENDS

jimeryan22

And besides if your so sure of your concrete facts why are they not being broadcast day and night on the worlds media......???? Where are these concrete facts...? Sources please

billie1b

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Cut your own crap ...

if youd been paying as much attention as you think you would know like everyone else the tape is a proven fake.....!!! Bits of recordings put together and made a day before the crash ........ so......???

Ok then what about the tweets celebrating just after the plane crash and then upon realising it was civilian jet all the tweets were getting deleted, suppose thats fake too

Jack1985

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Cut your own crap ...

if youd been paying as much attention as you think you would know like everyone else the tape is a proven fake.....!!! Bits of recordings put together and made a day before the crash ........ so......???

You've been watching too much Russia Today. The recording is far from fake, three is multiple sources of evidence against the pro Russians, the f*cking morons tried to say the bodies were planted and you are actually swallowing there bull? Please don't quote the time stamp as proof, totally irrelevant. As if the Ukrainains pre planned a shoot down of MH17 knowing a passenger from Indoensia was attending Thompson Uni, for ffs!!