Malaysia Airlines plane shot down in Ukraine near Russian border[Mod warning post#193

Tenger

weisses wrote: »

And where you would draw the line regarding Facts and (conspiracy) theory

This thread is to discuss the crash and probable shoot down of a B777. We do not require arguments over who is ultimately to blame for the incident (Putin/USA/Cthulu) or whether you feel the media is faking it. Geo-political debates and flights of fancy belong elsewhere.

The A&A Mods have been very lenient over the last few days. 2 posters have received bans for disobeying Mod instructions. Lets try keep it to only 2.

weisses

More on the shrapnel

https://twitter.com/Justin_Br0nk/status/491276520464605188/photo/1

Jack1985

Very good piece from the NY Times below. The shrapnel blast probably killed a lot of those on-board before the actual crash, also it does seem the aircraft was critically affected but didn't explode until impact with the ground, apparently too of the bodies missing are crew can't help but think the majority are cabin crew who were probably catapulted from the aircraft.

Without going into gory details, on the NY times is says that bodies which were unclothed were already free of the aircraft before impact, so it would suggest a definite break-up before final impact. Doesn't bare thinking about.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/21/world/europe/wreckage-offers-clues-on-why-flight-17-went-down.html

weisses

Tenger wrote: »

I do agree that anyone predicting this last week would be seen as a loon. However aviation assumptions are based on the well regulated system. This incident is an example of outside forces interfering with this system.

Because of the unprecedented circumstances it is very difficult for me not to use a broad approach to discuss the incident

Now we are talking shrapnel and what kind of warheads and delivery systems, possible range etc .. possibly best talked about in the military forum.

But maybe its because I'm dutch and want to know who the b*****s were that shot down that plane

Tenger

weisses wrote: »

Because of the unprecedented circumstances it is very difficult for me not to use a broad approach to discuss the incident

But maybe its because I'm dutch and want to know who the b*****s were that shot down that plane

my sincere thoughts to you.

No-one here is denying that the culprits must be found and punished. My personal view is that out of control separatists armed/aided by Russian military did it. But that is my personal opinion. Im not going to shove that at people.

Azwaldo55

weisses wrote: »

But maybe its because I'm dutch and want to know who the b*****s were that shot down that plane

The guys who shot down the plane are not b*****s.

There is a war on in Ukraine and they accidentally shot down a civilian airliner which they mistook for a Ukrainian military jet.

I think you need to look at this objectively.

Mistakes like this happen in war all the time.

Sometimes military jets miss a military target on the ground and bombs hit civilian areas. Artillery fire can land short or overshoot a target and hit civilians. In shootouts between both sides in built up areas stray shots can hit civilians etc. etc.

Azwaldo55

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The guys who shot down the plane are not b*****s.

QUOTE]

They absolutely are. They are the highest order of scumbags. Look at the way that they have treated the crash scene and the bodies. 5 days in the sun and they have only now been removed.

They put the bodies in a freezer train and they have recovered the flight recorders. They will be handed over. Job well done by the looks of it.

The reason there was a chaotic situation at the scene is because there is a war on.

They f*cked up when they shot the plane down but in a war what would you expect would happen when both sides are in an intense struggle and a Malaysian flight which shouldn't have been overflying the area blunders into the area.

Instead of being emotional why not look at the situation rationally and objectively.

Clearly the Russian government and the separatists never intended for this to happen.

In war mistakes like this happen.

Such is life.

knucklehead6

stevedublin wrote: »

You are assuming the people who shot down the plane knew it was a civilian aircraft. This may not have been the case.

it probably WASN'T the case, but to say that they are not B**Ds is coming across as trying to absolve them of blame

Reoil

stevedublin wrote: »

You are assuming the people who shot down the plane knew it was a civilian aircraft. This may not have been the case.

No, I believe it was an accident. My point is, anybody who shoots down a manned aircraft is a bastard, irrespective of context.
And don't start me on taking the evidence and preventing collection of the bodies...

eatmyshorts

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

..what would you expect would happen when both sides are in an intense struggle and a Malaysian flight which shouldn't have been overflying the area blunders into the area...

They were flight planned through that FIR, on an open airway with no restrictions above FL320, and under positive radar control by ATC. They did not "blunder" into anywhere.

Azwaldo55

eatmyshorts wrote: »

They were flight planned through that FIR, on an open airway with no restrictions above FL320, and under positive radar control by ATC. They did not "blunder" into anywhere.

They shouldn't have been flying through a war zone and certainly not through an area where Ukrainian jets had already been shot down by rebel forces.

The chances of a mistake being made are high in a war zone or in a region where tensions are high.

This is why the Korean plane was shot down by the Soviets, the Iranian plane was shot down by the US Navy and this plane was shot down by rebel forces.

This clearly was a mistake and just bad luck.

Calina

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

There is a world of difference between a handful of terrorist thugs with no democratic support opening fire at soldiers and pizza delivery men at a barracks in Northern Ireland and a rebel separatist group who fight as conventional army and wear uniforms and who have significant support in Eastern Ukraine fighting against the Kiev government.

The primary difference seems to be one lot had SAMs and the other lot did not.
I'd take the view that perhaps freedom fighters should not be customers for SAMs, in fact, they shouldn't per se be on sale.

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

I don't support Russia or the aims of the separatists but I don't call them scumbags. This is a war between two armies and a civilian plane blundered into it and got shot down obviously by mistake.

It's been pointed out to you already that the air corridor was open above 32000 feet and the flight was planned through the area. Blundering into it is not what happened. Please try to understand how that plane came to be in that location at that time.

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The rebel forces have done an inadequate job at the crash site compared to peace time professionals would in peacetime in Europe or America but they did organized a well co-ordinated search and gathered up most of the bodies and put them on a freezer train and also recovered the black boxes.
They did their best under the circumstances.
This is all very tragic but look at things calmly and objectively.
Media sensationalism and hysteria is not helping.

A significant amount of the post crash work, as I understand it, was done by miners in the area. Not all of the search and recovery was done by the rebel forces. And Malaysia had to be negotiate with the rebels to hand over the flight recorders. Regardless of the political situation on the ground, this should not be necessary: the boxes should not be subject to hostage negotiations.

It is absolutely not optimal that a plane crashes over disputed territory and maybe for the future, even allowing for the absence of SAMs in the hands of any insurgents below, we may need to consider the risks to recovery of bodies and debris if it calls in contested territory. Airline crashes are not, in the grand scheme of the number of flights, all that common although Malaysia has done really badly this year in terms of their position on the distribution of such incidents.

Calina

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

They shouldn't have been flying through a war zone and certainly not through an area where Ukrainian jets had already been shot down by rebel forces.

The chances of a mistake being made are high in a war zone or in a region where tensions are high.

This is why the Korean plane was shot down by the Soviets, the Iranian plane was shot down by the US Navy and this plane was shot down by rebel forces.

This clearly was a mistake and just bad luck.

Are you suggesting it was bad luck for the rebel forces on the ground, or bad luck for the passengers? Because it comes across like you think it was bad luck for the rebel forces on the ground. In my view, they should not have had access to that level of missile technology.

Calina

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Why shouldn't they have access to missiles since they are under attack from Ukrainian military aircraft? You are aware there is a full scale war going on there? Tanks, heavy artillery, jet fighter planes and troops fighting in the countryside and in urban areas. If you want to take the missiles off them then why don't to fly to Kiev and pick up a rifle and go and take them off them so.

I notice you didn't answer my question about whose bad luck you were mourning more, the passengers for being on the receiving end of the missile, or the people who accidentally shot the wrong aircraft?

weisses

Red Nissan wrote: »

You are a soldier in a radar observing station, you report contacts to your superior.

In another vehicle a red light comes on and the phone rings and you get the order to launch against tracking target.

You do just that.

by doing that they ( hypothetically ) blow half your family out of the sky but you wouldn't call them a bunch of bastards for doing so.

It's just something that could happen when your flying over Europe on your Holidays to Asia

knucklehead6

weisses wrote: »

I go with the version below

I am of the opinion that it was an inexperienced radar operator. I honestly cannot see anyone knowingly shooting down a civilian airliner, not in this day and age.

Red Nissan

weisses wrote: »

I go with the version below

Only fly in the ointment there really is that the aircraft can set the transponder to whatever it likes.

knucklehead6

weisses wrote: »

13 years ago 4 loaded passenger planes where used as flying bombs/missiles.

By a bunch of psycho's


Apologies, that was the unwritten part of my post. People who are not certifiably insane....

Grandpa Hassan

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Murder is the intentional killing of an innocent person.

The rebels thought they were firing at an Ukrainian military plane - they had shot down a series of Ukrainian military planes in recent days and weeks.

They made a boo boo but didn't commit murder.

A boo boo. Christ. Im out of this thread. Has been taken over the the shills

Cookiemunster

Red Nissan wrote: »

Only fly in the ointment there really is that the aircraft can set the transponder to whatever it likes.

If the flight was visable as MH17 on FR24, then the transponder was sending exactly what it was supposed to be sending.

Red Nissan

Cookiemunster wrote: »

If the flight was visable as MH17 on FR24, then the transponder was sending exactly what it was supposed to be sending.

But the point is a military aircraft could show the same thing. It's not super reliable.

How many times has a flight been missidentified on FR24 ~ a few times, it's not totally unheard of.

weisses

knucklehead6 wrote: »

I wasn't aware that the rebel forces had access to their own aircraft?

should have said possible own Aircraft or planes operating just over the border in Russia ... Its also not ruled out it was operated by Russian troops .. You need a good bit of training before operating one of these batteries.

Or as you pointed out the rebels don't have any planes to look after so why bother with identifying possible targets ... Just fire and forget which brings back your previous worry regarding who did it

People who are not certifiably insane

Which you are if you would operate a surface to air missile battery the way I mentioned above

knucklehead6

weisses wrote: »

should have said possible own Aircraft or planes operating just over the border in Russia ... Its also not ruled out it was operated by Russian troops .. You need a good bit of training before operating one of these batteries.

Or as you pointed out the rebels don't have any planes to look after so why bother with identifying possible targets ... Just fire and forget which brings back your previous worry regarding who did it



Which you are if you would operate a surface to air missile battery the way I mentioned above

I honestly don't think you can compare the people who fired this missile with the 9-11 hijackers.

I'm still of the opinion that this is an inadvertent shootdown of a civilian airliner, and whoever DID press the button/pull the trigger, genuinely thought they were engaging a Ukrainian Airforce aircraft.

That makes them incompetent, not insane.

Reoil

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Worse for the passengers obviously since they are all stiff as concrete in a freezer wagon on its way across Europe as we speak.

Please people, let's stop feeding the troll...

Red Nissan

weisses wrote: »

How do you know this to be factual ?

I just posted a piece into how that launch system works

A lot of these events broke live on Twitter.

The first suspicion we have is the rebels posting that they have shot down a government jet.

Then two simultaneous incidents, the announcement of a missing civilian aircraft close to the reported plane downing and the field commander transcripts that there are a lot of bodies and definately civilian.

At that time the world holds its breadth that the unthinkable may have happened, and it has, almost 300 civilians dead.

The rebels had shot down a commercial airliner.

ProfessorPlum

stevedublin wrote: »

You are assuming the people who shot down the plane knew it was a civilian aircraft. This may not have been the case.

Well if that's not the case, it just makes them stupid bastards.

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

They put the bodies in a freezer train and they have recovered the flight recorders. They will be handed over. Job well done by the looks of it.

Really?
A job 'well done' would have been to secure the area and allow the professional air accident investigators access to the crash site. It's a shambles of a situation.

lord lucan

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

You asked me was I mourning for the dead in the plane crash and my answer should have told that I was. I needed to spell it out to you.

You obviously are a hysterical idiot.

It is obvious the rebels did not intend to shoot the plane down. The allegations that they did are absurd.

This is was not murder. This was clearly a mistake made during a war situation.

Now grow up!

Stop making it personal, attack the post not the poster.

Stallingrad

It looks like this was a tragic targeting error by the separatists, I think most people agree on that.

Just for a bit of perspective, in 2003 the West were directly responsible for well over 3000 civilian deaths in Iraq, presumably targeting errors or just a blasé attitude to lives on the ground.

All this outrage just smacks of a typical Western narrative the Putin is evil, and the Russians are a bunch of drunken, well armed clowns. The Russians have not down themselves and favors but the media should be ashamed of the way the simplistic way events have been depicted.

The whole episode has been sordid from all sides.

Stallingrad

youreadthat wrote: »

There's also a difference between civilian losses in ground, often guerrilla warfare and shooting large innocent sitting ducks out of the sky.

As far as I'm concerned there is very little difference between a drone blowing up a house full of innocent civilians in Iraq, and a launcher blowing a plane out of the sky. Both events are targeting errors and those pulling the trigger should be held accountable.

Peregrine

On a lighter note..

Some time today on BBC World News: "Both flight data recorders have now been recovered"

That's some serious evidence tampering right there