Way to go Sinn Fein

jank

Karl Stein wrote: »

Rubbish. They plan on making those who benefit most from the economy pay in respect to the privileges they enjoy from it.
.

Ah good ol class warfare always gets the lefties blood going.
Nevermind the actual reality...

The typical household in the poorest decile (10% of the population) earns just €1,400 a year and is given a further €7,400 in benefits.

By these figures, the richest 10% of households pay almost 40% of all receipts from income tax, VAT, USC and PRSI. The second richest 10% pay a further 20%. Each of the poorest five deciles contributes less than 5% of all tax receipts – their combined contribution is just over 10%.

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2012/04/10/paying-tax-in-ireland-where-the-richest-and-poorest-pay/

Reformed Character

Well somebody is certainly rattled!
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0525/619472-live-blog-day-two-local-european-elections/

Minister of State and Labour TD Sean Sherlock has said the strong vote for Independent candidates and Sinn Féin "is not just a protest vote, I think this is a call by people for a fundamental shift in Irish politics."He said his party needs to "acknowledge and to embrace the fact that Sinn Féin are now on the rise", they are "part and parcel" of the political system and - based on current trends - there was "every likelihood that they will govern in 2016".

Dan_Solo

upyores wrote: »

And there in Dan lies the problem, you don't read , you don't listen, you just attack.

"Some percentage didn't vote for"? You are defending that halfwitted garbage?
It's so rubbish it attacks itself.

Banjo String

upyores wrote: »

Well somebody is certainly rattled!
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0525/619472-live-blog-day-two-local-european-elections/

Minister of State and Labour TD Sean Sherlock has said the strong vote for Independent candidates and Sinn Féin "is not just a protest vote, I think this is a call by people for a fundamental shift in Irish politics."He said his party needs to "acknowledge and to embrace the fact that Sinn Féin are now on the rise", they are "part and parcel" of the political system and - based on current trends - there was "every likelihood that they will govern in 2016".

Yep.

Not for the first time this week, Leo (who I fancy as the possible new leader of FG, watch this space) has voiced his concerns too.

TRANSPORT Minister Leo Varadkar has predicted a battle between Fine Gael and Sinn Fein to lead the Government.

Mr Varadkar warned his party colleagues against treating today’s poll results as a “blip” in support they could bounce back from.

He believes the Government needs to take action to regain public confidence ahead of a scheduled general election in 2016.

Speaking on RTE News Now, Mr Varadkar conceded Sinn Fein was performing well at the ballot boxes.

“It will be a battle between Sinn Fein and Fine Gael to lead next Government,” he said.

A change of times, we should embrace it. We've tried the alternatives time and time again, anyone remember how that worked out?

tomwaterford

RobertKK wrote: »

Easy to oppose when one hasn't to make the decisions, just look at Labour before the last election.
Sinn Fein are doing exactly the same and like with Labour, the same people will fall for it again.

upyores wrote: »

A huge result Banjo String.
Now you know I'm no lover of SF but the result has to be accepted and respected.
I only hope that Mr Adams lives up to his promise to use the mandate carefully and to represent everyone including those who voted against them.

I would sincerely hope so too....they are after getting a great chance now to show there hand...I hope they wont let people down....it should be said I was so pissed off with FG/LP I didn't even give them a number

Brian_Zeluz wrote: »

I don't think much of my peer group but I doubt they're as dumb as that. At 22 I have plenty of hang ups about SF and dread the thought of a growth in support.

genuine question why??
I would love to see age anaylsis...people I know who never before would dream of voting for them are turning against all other parties now

Brian_Zeluz

tomwaterford wrote: »

I would sincerely hope so too....they are after getting a great chance now to show there hand...I hope they wont let people down....it should be said I was so pissed off with FG/LP I didn't even give them a number



genuine question why??
I would love to see age anaylsis...people I know who never before would dream of voting for them are turning against all other parties now

I simply don't trust them, not that I have much trust for the rest of the party's either. None of them are even halfway near ideal so it's more of a case of who I don't want in.

Banjo String

Brian_Zeluz wrote: »

I simply don't trust them , not that I have much trust for the rest of the party's either. None of them are even halfway near ideal so it's more of a case of who I don't want in.

Any reason why?

tomwaterford

Brian_Zeluz wrote: »

I simply don't trust them, not that I have much trust for the rest of the party's either. None of them are even halfway near ideal so it's more of a case of who I don't want in.

that is a fair enough response...I wouldn't agree with them on plenty...but they fall closest to my beliefs...I would have huge respect for them....esp in the north where they put there lives on the line (wheter you agree on right or not is another thing altogether:D)
but its a case as much that all others have shown themselves to be corrupt and only look out for there friends....if SF do the same...I would have no issue withdrawing my support....though they do seem to genuinely care about the poor and low paid....I hope to f**k its not lip service....I would never vote for any party again if they let people down the way the labour party have...im ashamed to say I gave them (labour party) a high preference in the GE

tomwaterford

Banjo String wrote: »

Any reason why?

the way irish political parties have behaved/treated people...its not unreasonsable for people not to trust any of them

see pat rabbitte rubbishing people complaining about them breaking election promises

Banjo String

tomwaterford wrote: »

the way irish political parties have behaved/treated people...its not unreasonsable for people not to trust any of them

see pat rabbitte rubbishing people complaining about them breaking election promises

I don't disagree, just wanted some clarification as "simply not trusting" was a bit vague tbh

Brian_Zeluz

Banjo String wrote: »

Any reason why?

I've never had a high opinion of my local SF nominees which probably causes me to distrust them as a whole. The history of the man who leads them and of the party itself sway me away from them but that's a minor point which matters less as time goes by.

Bannasidhe

Banjo String wrote: »

A change of times, we should embrace it. We've tried the alternatives time and time again, anyone remember how that worked out?

The problem is there have been no alternatives. It's been a choice between 'pro-treaty' and 'anti-treaty but accepted it anyway' but essentially the same policies parties plus which ever small party will get into bed even though they will take the blame but sure the pension is worth it.

FF were in power for over 60 years in total FFS.
It's their resurgence that scares me tbh - under their lengthy tenure we have had boom/bust time and time again and frankly dodgy shenanigans time and time again yet people keep repeating the experiment.

Red Nissan

tomwaterford wrote: »

see pat rabbitte rubbishing people complaining about them breaking election promises

If they break election promises they may break other promises too. I know of at least one politician who actively voted on a No campaign and he was enthusiastic in saying Yes before the dust had settles to him later going on trial and getting a prison term.

So you never know.

Woodville56

Sinn Fein are delusional if they don't realise that their "big day out" is anything but a deserved kicking of the FG/Labour lot !
Let's see SF policies in action now in local authority areas where they hold the balance of power - time will tell they're no different than the rest and that their spend spend and tax the rich policies just don't work as simply as that ! They will compromise and adopt other party agendas as they've done in Northetn Ireland where they seem to have no problem with property tax etc. Sinn Fein supporters will come to realise fairly soon that "Sinn Fein" doesn't really mean what it says on the tin, it will be Sinn Fein with diluted policies, Sinn Fein light etc ..... same as all the rest of them !!! Enjoy the day folks ... Tomorrow it's back to the real world , can't wait to see SF deliver now that they have the endorsement of their adoring if misguided electorate ! Happy days , no more austerity, no more tax increases .. right ?? Well that what ye're promising isn't it ??

Bannasidhe

tomwaterford wrote: »

that is a fair enough response...I wouldn't agree with them on plenty...but they fall closest to my beliefs...I would have huge respect for them....esp in the north where they put there lives on the line (wheter you agree on right or not is another thing altogether:D)
but its a case as much that all others have shown themselves to be corrupt and only look out for there friends....if SF do the same...I would have no issue withdrawing my support....though they do seem to genuinely care about the poor and low paid....I hope to f**k its not lip service....I would never vote for any party again if they let people down the way the labour party have...im ashamed to say I gave them (labour party) a high preference in the GE

This.

I not only gave Labour my first preference in the GE - I have always given them my first preference and I was a member of the effin party .

I am willing to take a punt on SF because they are the only alternative - at least in my area. If they fail to deliver and turn around and simply engage in usual business as usual I will find someone else to vote for...

tomwaterford

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The problem is there have been no alternatives. It's been a choice between 'pro-treaty' and 'anti-treaty but accepted it anyway' but essentially the same policies parties plus which ever small party will get into bed even though they will take the blame but sure the pension is worth it.

FF were in power for over 60 years in total FFS.
It's their resurgence that scares me tbh - under their lengthy tenure we have had boom/bust time and time again and frankly dodgy shenanigans time and time again yet people keep repeating the experiment.

a lot of what was accepted during the last 100 years could fall asunder when britin releases its state papers for the treaty negociation in a few years will be interesting to see where cards fall after that...as its very short termism for them to continaly tie themselves to that old rhetoric unless they know for 100% sure what exactly was said in the treaty negociations...leaving themselves wide open for egg on there face

Red Nissan

Bannasidhe wrote: »

under their lengthy tenure we have had boom/bust time and time again and frankly dodgy shenanigans time and time again yet people keep repeating the experiment.

Yes, true but not an experiment, it's a human condition that has been manipulated.

FF make a blunder and they SEEK to lose the next election.

FG or LAB get in an fix the mess

FF actively SEEK to WIN the next election ~ and a pattern is repeated.

We did catch them out the second last time and forced them to face some of their wrong doings. As once out of office they are unaccountable.

Now FF see that the fix has been applied they now actively seek to win the next election.

With SF getting the Lion's share though in the locals, I hope the Irish Voter has woken up finally ~ we have been like Eyes Wide Shut for far too long in a lot of areas of Irish Society.

Bannasidhe

Woodville56 wrote: »

Sinn Fein are delusional if they don't realise that their "big day out" is anything but a deserved kicking of the FG/Labour lot !
?

And FG/LP are delusional because they don't realise their win in the G.E was a deserved kicking of FF/GP.

As for the rest of your post - what a lot of supposition based on no evidence. Ironic given we have ample evidence of how FF/FG/LP f*cked up time and time again.

Red Pepper

The big question is: Are Sinn Fein doing well because they have never been in government? Clearly the Irish people are sick of ALL the previous government parties (FF/Green/Lab/FG). What happens if SF do get into a government in 2016 and the economy fails to improve?

tomwaterford

Woodville56 wrote: »

Sinn Fein are delusional if they don't realise that their "big day out" is anything but a deserved kicking of the FG/Labour lot !
Let's see SF policies in action now in local authority areas where they hold the balance of power - time will tell they're no different than the rest and that their spend spend and tax the rich policies just don't work as simply as that ! They will compromise and adopt other party agendas as they've done in Northetn Ireland where they seem to have no problem with property tax etc. Sinn Fein supporters will come to realise fairly soon that "Sinn Fein" doesn't really mean what it says on the tin, it will be Sinn Fein with diluted policies, Sinn Fein light etc ..... same as all the rest of them !!! Enjoy the day folks ... Tomorrow it's back to the real world , can't wait to see SF deliver now that they have the endorsement of their adoring if misguided electorate ! Happy days , no more austerity, no more tax increases .. right ?? Well that what ye're promising isn't it ??

they have been rising and this was coming down the tracks with along time esp for labour
this reminds me how of touch the govt are...its like the shock FF got when they were thrown out....it seems when parties get into power they lose touch very quickly
at least they have a chance now to show what they are made of;)

Bannasidhe wrote: »

This.

I not only gave Labour my first preference in the GE - I have always given them my first preference and I was a member of the effin party .

I am willing to take a punt on SF because they are the only alternative - at least in my area. If they fail to deliver and turn around and simply engage in usual business as usual I will find someone else to vote for...

fair play to you...I often wondered how ordinary members of labour party viewed what the people at the top are after doing...I have family members involved with them...but wouldn't dare approach the subject with them

if SF go down the same path/messing as them...I would withdraw my support very quickly...and possibly only vote independants/spoil my vote in future

zl1whqvjs75cdy

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Has sinn feins policies up north been discussed yet? How they've increased the property and water charges 4 years in a row? Closed schools and a and e departments? The most hypocritical party to ever disgrace Irish politics.

Quoting my own post for context.

Karl Stein wrote: »

The north is a different political jurisdiction and British dependency.

Do you understand that?

Yes thank you Karl I understand that perfectly well. The point I was making is that if Sinn Fein are willing to not only back water and property charges up North but to increase them year on year what makes you think they won'd do the same in the South if given the chance?

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I didn't read their NI election manifesto. Did they say they wouldn't do this? It's a different country with a different budget you know?

I am aware its a different country with a different budget. Is stating the painfully obvious a common trait among SF followers? Again my point is that Sinn Fein are pressing the "squeezed middle" once given a chance up North. How are they going to avoid doing the same down here?

There has been some suggestion that they would increase capital gains tax and chase large multinationals for tax due. What happens when these large multinationals decide "hump that" and start routing their profits through somewhere more tax "friendly"? SF will have to keep the lights on some way and there'll be only one place left to get the money from.

I am not supporting the questionable tax policies of large companies btw but I am realistic as to how they operate.

Smidge wrote: »

Okay, I'll bite.
Because no party here would ever increase charges or close schools and a&e depts? :rolleyes:

I don't recall ever saying that they would. I think FG have made an utter hash of the health service and Minister Reily is beyond incompetent but that's a debate for another thread.

Everyone might take note that of the three SF supporters I have quoted not one attempted to address the points I made in my original post, instead choosing to make "witty" remarks. Pretty typical SF policy, if you can call it that.

Reformed Character

Red Nissan wrote: »

With SF getting the Lion's share though in the locals, I hope the Irish Voter has woken up finally ~ we have been like Eyes Wide Shut for far too long in a lot of areas of Irish Society.

Can you explain to me how SF "got the Lions share".
Independs got 28%
FF got over 24%
FG got over 23%
SF got 16%.

SF did well and increased their vote substantially, though less of an increase than FF got.
A great result but far from the Lions share!

Woodville56

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And FG/LP are delusional because they don't realise their win in the G.E was a deserved kicking of FF/GP.
.

Agreed, point being that unless SF deliver they will suffer the same fate when a more populist crowd turn up !
As for the remainder of my post being supposition, compromise is the nature of politics as happening with SF and the Unionists in NI .. If anyone believes that SF will be able to deliver fully on its policies, them yes, they are bring delusional !!! Unless you believe SF will be in a position to govern alone come the glorious day ??? Won't happen .... A reluctant FG/FF coalition will see to that !
And for the record I'm not a supporter of either party, nor Labour, just an observer !

tomwaterford

Woodville56 wrote: »

Agreed, point being that unless SF deliver they will suffer the same fate when a more populist crowd turn up !
As for the remainder of my post being supposition, compromise is the nature of politics as happening with SF and the Unionists in NI .. If anyone believes that SF will be able to deliver fully on its policies, them yes, they are bring delusional !!! Unless you believe SF will be in a position to govern alone come the glorious day ??? Won't happen .... A reluctant FG/FF coalition will see to that !

but will that not leave SF as main opposition party and given the irish tradition of the smaller party in coalition being wiped out...give SF a fair shot (great pun:pac::pac:_) at power the next election???

Banjo String

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Quoting my own post for context.



Yes thank you Karl I understand that perfectly well. The point I was making is that if Sinn Fein are willing to not only back water and property charges up North but to increase them year on year what makes you think they won'd do the same in the South if given the chance?

They don't have water charges in the north. They (Westminster) attempted to introduce them.

I'm at a loss as to how this line keeps getting rolled out tbh.

Here are the facts. Sinn Fein is against water charges North and South. The Tory Government in Westminster tried to introduce water charges in the North. Sinn Fein blocked them.

Yes, there are rates in the North but they pay for the services of residents such as bin collections, school books, driving lessons, upkeep of local parks, roads, policing and health services and much more.

There is no comparison with the water charges and property taxes here which are both revenue-raising measures for the Government.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/news-opinion/sinn-fein-td-mary-lou-3438040

Have to admit the driving lesson part is a new one on me in fairness. I certainly paid for all my own back when I did them. Still though, not bad value for money.

Flex

Red Nissan wrote: »

Yes, true but not an experiment, it's a human condition that has been manipulated.

FF make a blunder and they SEEK to lose the next election.

FG or LAB get in an fix the mess

FF actively SEEK to WIN the next election ~ and a pattern is repeated.

We did catch them out the second last time and forced them to face some of their wrong doings. As once out of office they are unaccountable.

Now FF see that the fix has been applied they now actively seek to win the next election.

With SF getting the Lion's share though in the locals, I hope the Irish Voter has woken up finally ~ we have been like Eyes Wide Shut for far too long in a lot of areas of Irish Society.

I dont disagree with your above analysis. I have no party allegiance and in the past 10 years Ive been allowed to vote have probably voted for the whole spectrum of parties (and god forgive me, even Joe Higgins )

What frustrates me is, having read through history how Irish people did as you outlined above, I always figured that that was because decades ago, Ireland was parochial, impoverished, peoples access to information was severely limited. Furthermore the state was just freshly independent; eager to assert that independence, wary of Britains willingness to respect it, along with NI, etc. so people couldnt be as well informed as possible and thats why they rejected responsible government and always fell for populist crap from the opposition.

I figured in this day and age, where by simply using your phone, you can access nearly limitless information and fully inform yourself about the economy, elections and parties that that cycle was over. Seeing the rise in support for Sinn Fein and Independents actually shows that historically it wasnt that Irish people just didnt know any better, they just didnt give a ****. They wanted whoever promised them the most free stuff, whoever pandered to the victimhood and persecution complex, whoever indulged their 'parish pump' demands and whoever told them what they want to hear.

Bannasidhe

Red Pepper wrote: »

The big question is: Are Sinn Fein doing well because they have never been in government? Clearly the Irish people are sick of ALL the previous government parties (FF/Green/Lab/FG). What happens if SF do get into a government in 2016 and the economy fails to improve?

I think the issue for many people is a complete failure of government to lead by example.

I suspect that if - given it was a time of national emergency - our 'leaders' were seen to genuinely share the pain the wind would have been taken out of SF's sails and people would not be so angry.

The fact is that FG/LP utterly failed to act decisively and curb the excessive wages of TDs ( a cut to 50k a year for the duration for example), top civil servants, anyone paid out of the public purse; end unvouched expenses immediately; end the ridiculous amount of quangos; declare that all State pensions henceforth would be 1 pension per person claimable only when statutory age of retirement is reached); impose paycaps and stick to them etc etc but they couldn't/wouldn't as 'reasonable expectations'/'entitlements' - I think the electorate are entitled to a reasonable expectation that those leading the austerity charge should lead by example and be seen to slash their own 'entitlements' before targeting the sick and vulnerable.

Everyone knows and accepts cuts have to be made - what stick in the craw is where those cuts are being made and the hypocrisy of those imposing the cuts continuing to live well in their publicly funded bubble of entitlement.

SF TDs already live on the average industrial wage (no - I don't like the fact that the donate the rest to the party but at least it's not going into their pocket like the rest of the shower in Leinster house) so straight away that is a point in their favour when it comes to making common ground with the electorate.

Woodville56

Red Nissan wrote: »

With SF getting the Lion's share though in the locals, I hope the Irish Voter has woken up finally ~ we have been like Eyes Wide Shut for far too long in a lot of areas of Irish Society.

Like Gerry Adams yeah ??? Eyes Wide Shut to ...child abuse.....the disappeared....Jean McConville.....

And SF gonna save Irish Society ....really Red Nissan ?

Santa Cruz

Who do we apply to for the refund of the property tax?

RobertKK

Red Nissan wrote: »

Yes, true but not an experiment, it's a human condition that has been manipulated.

FF make a blunder and they SEEK to lose the next election.

FG or LAB get in an fix the mess

FF actively SEEK to WIN the next election ~ and a pattern is repeated.

We did catch them out the second last time and forced them to face some of their wrong doings. As once out of office they are unaccountable.

Now FF see that the fix has been applied they now actively seek to win the next election.

With SF getting the Lion's share though in the locals, I hope the Irish Voter has woken up finally ~ we have been like Eyes Wide Shut for far too long in a lot of areas of Irish Society.

FG and Labour have applied the FF fix which was bringing in the IMF and co - got deals done thanks to Greece getting interest reductions which were also applicable to Ireland and Portugal.

NAMA to make a profit.

IMF are gone now and the government is crumbling.