Way to go Sinn Fein

Bannasidhe

miles_away wrote: »

of course i am , all those constitute wellfare

i was not making a judgement call , was merely pointing to a fact , ireland has an enormous wellfare state

Ah - you are the same new poster - I can't keep up with all the newbies so apologies.

Scandinavia really has an enormous welfare states - no sign of any of those countries needing a bailout.

So - what do you propose be done about all those people who paid prsi for many many years and are now getting pension 'welfare'? Should they be cut off when they reach a certain age? Mandatory euthanasia or do we allow them to just die off by natural means?

What about the employed who are so badly paid they cannot afford to live? Should they just get more low paying jobs cos who needs sleep anyway...

What about the poor sods who were made redundant having paid their stamps? Should they suck it up and compete with the low paid to lower wages further cos sure a job is a job.
If they have children - should they sell them or put them in care?

Tell me oh wise one.

My name is URL

Banjo String wrote: »

I LOLd



http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/elections/taoiseach-shows-support-for-troubled-labour-leader-eamon-gilmore-30302635.html

Master debater.

He threw a fit when someone asked him about the future of Eamon Gilmore in government too.

Enda Kenny would not speculate on the future of Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore after the junior coalition partners saw their vote drop dramatically in the local elections.


“You don’t ask me questions about other parties,”

Gobshite. It's not like he ever asks questions about other parties when it suits him to do so :rolleyes:

It's a wonder he didn't scream assault and fall over a flowerpot after been asked the question.

Geuze

lightspeed wrote: »

In any case, what is done is done and we still have a lot of debt to pay. Educate me how sinn fein will repay the debt we owe, keep the welfare and services as they are without any cuts or increased taxes.

Can any sinn fein supporters or supports of other left wing parties educate me on this matter?

Anybody at all

Note that SF plan to increase many taxes, if they got power:

http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2013/Pre-Budget2014Submission.pdf

Personally, I would save 225 pa if they abolish the LPT, but I would pay 1400 more pa in income tax.

miles_away

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ah - you are the same new poster - I can't keep up with all the newbies so apologies.

Scandinavia really has an enormous welfare states - no sign of any of those countries needing a bailout.

So - what do you propose be done about all those people who paid prsi for many many years and are now getting pension 'welfare'? Should they be cut off when they reach a certain age? Mandatory euthanasia or do we allow them to just die off by natural means?

What about the employed who are so badly paid they cannot afford to live? Should they just get more low paying jobs cos how needs sleep anyway...

What about the poor sods who were made redundant having paid their stamps? Should they suck it up and compete with the low paid to lower wages further cos sure a job is a job.
If they have children - should they sell them or put them in care?

Tell me oh wise one.

when you bring up scandanavia , you compare us to the absolute most extreme example of a wellfare state and to countries which have been wealthy for half a century longer than ireland , some with huge oil reserves


the state pension in ireland is nearly double what people in the uk receive , thats a pretty striking statistic and one which is completely unsustainable

Geuze

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Scandinavia really has an enormous welfare states - no sign of any of those countries needing a bailout.

So - what do you propose be done about all those people who paid prsi for many many years and are now getting pension 'welfare'? Should they be cut off when they reach a certain age? Mandatory euthanasia or do we allow them to just die off by natural means?

What about the employed who are so badly paid they cannot afford to live? Should they just get more low paying jobs cos how needs sleep anyway...

What about the poor sods who were made redundant having paid their stamps? Should they suck it up and compete with the low paid to lower wages further cos sure a job is a job.
If they have children - should they sell them or put them in care?

Tell me oh wise one.

Reforms of the welfare state would involve reforms of JSA and OPFP - neither of these are linked to PRSI.

Indeed, I suggest a more generous social insurance system, for workers, but a less generous social assistance system, for people who have not contributed PRSI.

lightspeed

lightspeed wrote: »

True but what was the alternative to bailing out the banks?

When the previous government announced the banking gaurantee, there was already a run on the banks here.

Sinn fein's policy was dont bailout the banks and when the Ireland loses all creditability, we will just wait and see?

In any case, what is done is done and we still have a lot of debt to pay. Educate me how sinn fein will repay the debt we owe, keep the welfare and services as they are without any cuts or increased taxes.

Can any sinn fein supporters or supports of other left wing parties educate me on this matter?

Anybody at all

Is the EU going to let us go to pot? Because if we go the whole lot comes crashing down. We have to be in a better position of bargaining then we are but for us to get a better deal we need stronger leaders. We should have renegotiated and with stronger leadership we arguably could have.

How are we going to pay back the debt in its current form? We're screwed for generations. A bank used by a minority of Irish people has inflicted 33bn debt burden on us and both governments have just sat back and took it.

MRnotlob606

Galwayguy35

I'm mostly a SF voter, because at a local level if you go to them with an issue you are listened to and can be sure they will look into the problem and get back to you on it, well in my experience anyway.

At national level I think SF need to have a wake up and smell the coffee moment if the present trend continues and they end up with more seats in the Dail after the next GE. Some of their economic policies are off the wall and they need to be realistic about this if they ever want to be in power.

lightspeed

Reekwind wrote: »

I genuinely don't get this attitude. It wasn't welfare that artificially inflated the economy, it wasn't welfare that caused the crisis, it wasn't welfare that made the politicians run to bail out the banks and it wasn't welfare that saddled the State with absolutely massive debts.

So it's quite baffling when you see people harp on about the 'welfare state' and how 'single mothers' apparently have it easy. Even more so when they (who are simply parroting an unpleasant and dishonest political narrative) are the ones chastising everyone else for swallowing politicians' lies.

Edit:
Have we actually come round to the idea that writing a blank cheque for the banks, despite having no idea how much money was needed to plug the hole, was the right course of action? And this is coming from those urging financial probity?

Sometimes you really do have to laugh.

When the banks were bust and people and there were already a run on the banks who already had massive debt, what do you think would have happened if no such blank cheque was offered?

It is irrelevant that there was blank cheque approach taken cause at that stage the damage was already done. You make it sound that as soon as the banking guarantee was given, the banks began to act wreckless and pile on more debt. That is not the case though.

The banking system was so integrated that there was a domino effect in all banks. so they were all nearly as bad a state as each other so without the bailout, who was going to lend money into the economy?

On top of that the massive bank runs would have continued. In such circumstances, how is it that people think that when the ATMs went dry and no money was going to be lent out, we would be in a better state than after the bank gaurantee and banking bailouts?

You really think in such circumstances, all welfare payments, public service payments, health care,education, jobs all would have been hunky dory without any bail out as the atms dried up?

That is just a big bunch of silly talk

Geuze

miles_away wrote: »

the state pension in ireland is nearly double what people in the uk receive , thats a pretty striking statistic and one which is completely unsustainable

The full State pension here is 230.30. That is about 184 stg.

The basic state pension in the UK is 113.10 per week

So, yes, ours is about 60% more than the UK BSP.

BUT

most workers in the UK were or are mebers of a second state pension, known as SERPS and then as SSP.

(this is not the same as an occupational pension)

So typically I think most workers get more than 113.

maryishere

miles_away wrote: »

when you bring up scandanavia , you compare us to the absolute most extreme example of a wellfare state and to countries which have been wealthy for half a century longer than ireland , some with huge oil reserves


the state pension in ireland is nearly double what people in the uk receive , thats a pretty striking statistic and one which is completely unsustainable

+1. Well said.

It will be a sad day for Ireland if a party filled by some including the unrepentant murderers of Jean McConville and others ever get in to power.

Ally Dick

The Sinn Fein members are consorting with murderers. They have blood on their hands by association

Bannasidhe

miles_away wrote: »

when you bring up scandanavia , you compare us to the absolute most extreme example of a wellfare state and to countries which have been wealthy for half a century longer than ireland , some with huge oil reserves


the state pension in ireland is nearly double what people in the uk receive , thats a pretty striking statistic and one which is completely unsustainable

You were claiming Ireland's problem is that it has a massive welfare bill. I pointed out that compared to the Nordic zone it doesn't, yet they did not need a bailout - which is actually a loan on which interest will be paid.

Welfare did not bankrupt us.

An artificially inflated unregulated property bubble coupled with an unregulated banking system designed to make a 'killing' in property for an elite which was rescued at taxpayers expense is what bankrupted us.

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

How are we going to pay back the debt in its current form? We're screwed for generations. A bank used by a minority of Irish people has inflicted 33bn debt burden on us and both governments have just sat back and took it.

No matter what your ideology is, this is sickening, everybody must agree.

Whatever about the bn poured into AIB/EBS/BoI, the 30-35bn put into Anglo + INBS is a pure cost on Irish people forever more.

maryishere

Geuze wrote: »

The full State pension here is 230.30. That is about 184 stg.

The basic state pension in the UK is 113.10 per week

So, yes, ours is about 60% more than the UK BSP.

and here pensioners get perks like "free" travel ( nothing is free) and tv licence and fuel etc. That's just the basic pension here.
As David McWilliams says, our pension for public servants is nearly triple what UK public servants get. That is completely unsustainable.

lightspeed

Deleted User wrote: »

Is the EU going to let us go to pot? Because if we go the whole lot comes crashing down. We have to be in a better position of bargaining then we are but for us to get a better deal we need stronger leaders. We should have renegotiated and with stronger leadership we arguably could have.

How are we going to pay back the debt in its current form? We're screwed for generations. A bank used by a minority of Irish people has inflicted 33bn debt burden on us and both governments have just sat back and took it.

Greece were less reluctant to agree to austerity cuts at first and even elected magic bean salesmen there, educate how strong their bargaining power was and how they are in a better shape as a result?

After all their protests and anti austerity movement, they still had to impose austerity and by delaying it and trying to fight the economic reality, it just made things worse and scared away any chances of foreign investment by making the country more of a high risk unstable country.


A country cant continue to overspend and not pay back its debt, regardless of how unpopular that is, its an economic reality.

Geuze

miles_away wrote: »

thank you , are you including the spend on health and education in that figure though ?

NO.

Just spending on transferring income from one household to another.

Buying goods and services spending is not included.

See here:

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/gfsa/governmentfinancestatisticsapril2014/#.U4HkY3Y0RLA

See table 1.

Social benefits = 28,559m.

Bannasidhe

Geuze wrote: »

Reforms of the welfare state would involve reforms of JSA and OPFP - neither of these are linked to PRSI.

Indeed, I suggest a more generous social insurance system, for workers, but a less generous social assistance system, for people who have not contributed PRSI.

Actual jobs that pay a living wage would be the best 'reform' of all.

As for OPFP - I have one word - childcare.

Geuze

maryishere wrote: »

As David McWilliams says, our pension for public servants is nearly triple what UK public servants get. That is completely unsustainable.

That's not true.

PS pensions are 50% of former wages here.

In the UK, the civil service pensions are typically the same:

http://resources.civilservice.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/YCPBE.pdf

dxhound2005

There is a major problem especially in Louth and Monaghan with fuel laundering, or the results of it in the North. Sludge in vast quantities is being abandoned at the roadside and elsewhere and is costing our local authorities hundreds of thousands of euros to send it to Germany since there is no licenced facilities in Ireland to dispose of such hazardous waste.

I would be interested in whether Sinn Fein will try to rein in the activities of these criminals who operate in "Republican heartlands". Whether or not they are Republicans themselves they could not operate without the knowledge and permission of the Republican movement which controls the border areas. If SF councillors have to administer the budget which is being depleted by these unnecessary expenses will they close these people down? And be prepared to forego the contributions which the fuel launderers are making to the Republican movement in order to be allowed to operate at present?

Bannasidhe

maryishere wrote: »

+1. Well said.

It will be a sad day for Ireland if a party filled by some including the unrepentant murderers of Jean McConville and others ever get in to power.

It's a sad day for Ireland that this poor woman's murder is still being used to score political points.

Galwayguy35

maryishere wrote: »

+1. Well said.

It will be a sad day for Ireland if a party filled by some including the unrepentant murderers of Jean McConville and others ever get in to power.

Really?

And who would they be now?

I must have missed the court case where these people were found guilty...

Reekwind

miles_away wrote: »

where did i refer to " single mothers " ?

So you don't "completely agree" with this post?

because people are buying what SF are selling , unfortunatley the buyers - voters havent read the small print , they just find the slogans appealing

Which makes it sound as if they're "buying" SF's ideology, rather than the fine print of their policy. Or do you think that "make the rich pay" is an ideologically neutral statement?

lightspeed wrote:

When the banks were bust and people and there were already a run on the banks who already had massive debt, what do you think would have happened if no such blank cheque was offered?

Probably the same thing that happened in every other country that didn't offer a blank cheque. I didn't see Germany or France or the UK (all with their own banking troubles) offering to blindly take on every cent of bad debt that their banks had. Where the bailouts happened they were measured and entered into with eyes open.

But this is typical TINA talk - we had to bankrupt our country and transfer the debts of the rich to the State because There Was No Alternative. It's been a long time since I've heard an Irish politician actually try and sell a narrative that doesn't have '... or else' tagged on to the end. Apparently I'm not alone in being sick of such self-serving nonsense.

Particularly if history is now being rewritten to portray Cowen as a financial genius.

lightspeed

lightspeed wrote: »

Greece were less reluctant to agree to austerity cuts at first and even elected magic bean salesmen there, educate how strong their bargaining power was and how they are in a better shape as a result?

After all their protests and anti austerity movement, they still had to impose austerity and by delaying it and trying to fight the economic reality, it just made things worse and scared away any chances of foreign investment by making the country more of a high risk unstable country.


A country cant continue to overspend and not pay back its debt, regardless of how unpopular that is, its an economic reality.

Not our debt.....the banks debt. 33bn went to a bank of which i couldnt even tell you the nearest branch to me.

Prince Charles himself talking on RTE One at the moment. A broken man. Very ashen looking. Time running out for you Enda.

maryishere

maryishere wrote: »

and here pensioners get perks like "free" travel ( nothing is free) and tv licence and fuel etc. That's just the basic pension here.
As David McWilliams says, our pension for public servants is nearly triple what UK public servants get. That is completely unsustainable.

Exactly Mary. Absolutely spot on. Those who are expecting ordinary people to slum it arent exactly slumming it themselves.

miles_away

maryishere wrote: »

+1. Well said.

It will be a sad day for Ireland if a party filled by some including the unrepentant murderers of Jean McConville and others ever get in to power.

a lot of people long with jean mc conville died tragically during the troubles , northern ireland was a rotten place , if gerry adams wasnt the head of the republican movement , someone else would have

my problem with sinn fein is their economic policy , not what happened during the troubles

Bannasidhe

maryishere wrote: »

and here pensioners get perks like "free" travel ( nothing is free) and tv licence and fuel etc. That's just the basic pension here.
As David McWilliams says, our pension for public servants is nearly triple what UK public servants get. That is completely unsustainable.

Damn sponger pensioners - who do they think they are eh!

What did they ever do for Ireland bar pay insane tax rates in the past to fund our education, health care etc etc.

So - do you favour euthanasia or death by hunger/hypothermia?
Should I smother my 81 year old began full time work as an apprentice baker aged 14 in 1948 and is still working part-time and paying tax father with a pillow or should we allow him to try and survive on his part-time earnings and see how that goes?

Me mammy will have to go - she had to quit job when she got married and then what with raising us and all sure she hardly has a stamp to her name.

Red Nissan

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Actual jobs that pay a living wage would be the best 'reform' of all.

As for OPFP - I have one word - childcare.

Actual jobs that offer a living wage.

Then insist that a quota is filled by the unemployed from the Irish live register of long term unemployed. What happened in the boom was the jobs were filled by migrants in what could be termed 'worker trafficking' ~ the Ballincollig By-Pass was built by a Turkish migrant force of families, whose males head worded for a €1 an hour ~ but had a day off and had their family with them and they were all fed and kept and educated on site.

Dan_Solo

maryishere wrote: »

+1. Well said.

It will be a sad day for Ireland if a party filled by some including the unrepentant murderers of Jean McConville and others ever get in to power.

You have evidence that McConville's murderer is a current SF member?
And you are refusing to share this information with the PSNI?