Way to go Sinn Fein

dxhound2005

Duiske wrote: »

Seems that you yourself may be a bit more misguided than a large percentage of the electorate. Most of the electorate would realise that the elections on Friday were local elections, not a general election, and that County Councils have no say in taxation policy.

They can vary the property tax up or down to a maximum of 15% in 2015. We will see how many anti "austerity" councillors try to get it reduced if they are in positions of having to administer and spend their Local Government Grant.

Red Nissan

Duiske wrote: »

Seems that you yourself may be a bit more misguided than a large percentage of the electorate.

I can understand this impression though. The media are electing SF in 2016 before any candidate is even announced.

Two years is a short time to assemble a winning team and strike a hot Iron ~ you'll see the Greens giving us back our carbon tax, FF saying they were joking about the Water Tax and FG wanting the paid bonds returned and Labour saying it was only a dream everybody, I'm Bobby Ewing folks, not dead at all, it was all just a dream, folks!

Reformed Character

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They can vary the property tax up or down to a maximum of 15% in 2015. We will see how many anti "austerity" councillors try to get it reduced if they are in positions of having to administer and spend their Local Government Grant.

The only way to reduce it is to up business rates with a consequent rise in unemployment as more small businesses close.

comongethappy

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They can vary the property tax up or down to a maximum of 15% in 2015. We will see how many anti "austerity" councillors try to get it reduced if they are in positions of having to administer and spend their Local Government Grant.

That would be interesting.

Will a SF councillor vote to reduce the LPT in a given county knowing the corresponding cut in expenditure to match it?

miles_away

lightspeed wrote: »

Sinn Fein and Socialist, People before profit are all selling people magic beans.

Ming would never have got elected were there not a market for his magic beans.

I think if anybody wanted to get elected into politics, all you need to do is knock on doors and tell people that there should be no water tax, property tax, no cuts to child welfare, tax higher earners more, invest more in education, health service, public transport.

Completely disregard, financial and economic realities though. That is a must.

We are still spending more than we take in, sill have large debt to repay, people are living longer with no cuts to the pension and yet the fund for that was used for the banks. Huge overspend in health care. Thanks to the unions these left wing parties support, we have some of the best paid bus and rail drivers in the world and also one of the most expensive public transports network in the world.

40% of the country on medical cards.
Pretty high unemployment benefits which are well more generous than other EU countries and are given on a permanent basis unlike other EU countries.

Single mothers can easily get rent allowance for housing which is not in all other EU countries.

Child benefit (yes a financial benefit for increasing the population) which they dont have in other Eu countries.

Cheaper education than most other EU countries.

A water service that is in need of costly repairs and restoration.

When Fianna Fail were growing the economy by creating a property boom and knocking on doors, persuading people to vote for them, those that did should be questioning why did i buy the magic beans that those clowns were selling me?

When people hear sinn fein, socialist party etc, talk how we should not have any of the new taxes being introduced, for the people who trust their policies , do you not feel as silly and stupid as the people who years ago bought the magic beans that Fianna Faill sold people at the doorsteps?

What economic evidence or financial data have people who support sinn fein seen that proves we can avoid such taxes and maintain the current services?

If you have seen no evidence and still trust in their policies, how is it not the

equivalent to buying magic beans?

completely agree

ireland is the godzilla of wellfare states

Red Nissan

comongethappy wrote: »

That would be interesting.

Will a SF councillor vote to reduce the LPT in a given county knowing the corresponding cut in expenditure to match it?

I do not know the specifics in this instance. Heretofore, any council not passing a budget was overruled by executive order, in this case the City Manager, OR, threatened with dissolution and Direct Rule, with the Executive Officer stepping in, ie the City Manager.

Dan_Solo

miles_away wrote: »

completely agree

ireland is the godzilla of wellfare states

With the mother of all begging bowls being AIB and NAMA. They've scrounged more off the state than a million doleheads.

Bannasidhe

comongethappy wrote: »

That would be interesting.

Will a SF councillor vote to reduce the LPT in a given county knowing the corresponding cut in expenditure to match it?

To be perfectly honest I would have no issue with a charge like the LPT if it applied to all properties equally - including those L.A. houses/flats that are exempt and all of the funds raised went to the L.A. Hell, I would pay double my current charge if it included water and refuse like rates did.

I would also prefer to get rid of the highly paid, unelected county managers and make the councillors responsible - have them set the budget, have them determine cuts/spending and let the electorate be their judge.

Is it a case of we cannot 'trust' councillors as a tick on a piece of paper is no basis for a system of (local) government? Sure in that case why not put a country manager in and allow him/her (ha - as if it would be a her...) to overrule the Dáil.

Bannasidhe

miles_away wrote: »

completely agree

ireland is the godzilla of wellfare states

Care to expand on that point?

miles_away

Dan_Solo wrote: »

With the mother of all begging bowls being AIB and NAMA. They've scrounged more off the state than a million doleheads.

yes but we only had to bail out the banks once , the wellfare bill is over ten billion every year

Smidge

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Quoting my own post for context.



Yes thank you Karl I understand that perfectly well. The point I was making is that if Sinn Fein are willing to not only back water and property charges up North but to increase them year on year what makes you think they won'd do the same in the South if given the chance?



I am aware its a different country with a different budget. Is stating the painfully obvious a common trait among SF followers? Again my point is that Sinn Fein are pressing the "squeezed middle" once given a chance up North. How are they going to avoid doing the same down here?

There has been some suggestion that they would increase capital gains tax and chase large multinationals for tax due. What happens when these large multinationals decide "hump that" and start routing their profits through somewhere more tax "friendly"? SF will have to keep the lights on some way and there'll be only one place left to get the money from.

I am not supporting the questionable tax policies of large companies btw but I am realistic as to how they operate.



I don't recall ever saying that they would. I think FG have made an utter hash of the health service and Minister Reily is beyond incompetent but that's a debate for another thread.

Everyone might take note that of the three SF supporters I have quoted not one attempted to address the points I made in my original post, instead choosing to make "witty" remarks. Pretty typical SF policy, if you can call it that.

Are you saying that I'm a SF supporter?
Your mind reading skills must be slipping. Either that or you didn't bother following the thread where I have stated several times that I voted INDEPENDENT.

Also typical of some posters on here. Take snippets of a post/reply to a completely different question/post and then use it totally out of context.
Way to mislead people/back your own argument :rolleyes:

miles_away

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Care to expand on that point?

its fcuking enormous !

Duiske

Duiske wrote: »

Seems that you yourself may be a bit more misguided than a large percentage of the electorate. Most of the electorate would realise that the elections on Friday were local elections, not a general election, and that County Councils have no say in taxation policy.

Still though it creates a bit of instability and uncertainty within the government. Even poor old Phil Hogan is seemingly in a bit of a panic this morning.
Labour are now at a crossroads. Do they continue to support Hapless Gilmore and the current regime and effectively walk over a political cliff the next election?

Or do they decide to change and actually grow a pair of cajoles for once? Reform and make some sort of a difference. They need new fresh impetus.

Alot of good people in both FG and Labour i have no doubt but both are currently under piss poor weak and gutless leadership. Kenny is a waste of space. Only interested in photo opportunities. The cabinet he surrounds himself with are no better.

lightspeed

Dan_Solo wrote: »

With the mother of all begging bowls being AIB and NAMA. They've scrounged more off the state than a million doleheads.

True but what was the alternative to bailing out the banks?

When the previous government announced the banking gaurantee, there was already a run on the banks here.

Sinn fein's policy was dont bailout the banks and when the Ireland loses all creditability, we will just wait and see?

In any case, what is done is done and we still have a lot of debt to pay. Educate me how sinn fein will repay the debt we owe, keep the welfare and services as they are without any cuts or increased taxes.

Can any sinn fein supporters or supports of other left wing parties educate me on this matter?

Anybody at all

Bannasidhe

miles_away wrote: »

yes but we only had to bail out the banks once , the wellfare bill is over ten billion every year

Are you including contributory old age pensions and child benefit in those figures?
Are you including job seekers benefits where people have made years of prsi payments?
Are you including rent allowance which is paid to private landlords?
Are you including Family Income Supplement which is needed to bring workers income up to a living wage?

Reekwind

miles_away wrote: »

completely agree

ireland is the godzilla of wellfare states

I genuinely don't get this attitude. It wasn't welfare that artificially inflated the economy, it wasn't welfare that caused the crisis, it wasn't welfare that made the politicians run to bail out the banks and it wasn't welfare that saddled the State with absolutely massive debts.

So it's quite baffling when you see people harp on about the 'welfare state' and how 'single mothers' apparently have it easy. Even more so when they (who are simply parroting an unpleasant and dishonest political narrative) are the ones chastising everyone else for swallowing politicians' lies.

Edit:

lightspeed wrote:

When the previous government announced the banking gaurantee, there was already a run on the banks here.

Have we actually come round to the idea that writing a blank cheque for the banks, despite having no idea how much money was needed to plug the hole, was the right course of action? And this is coming from those urging financial probity?

Sometimes you really do have to laugh.

miles_away

labour,s mistake is spending too much time worrying about what a minority of middle class liberals want , the vast majority of working people only give a tiny amount of thought to issues like marriage equality or the number of women on corporate boards

as for the rise of sinn fein , understandable why they get a large vote in less wealthy areas but do people feel ok about the level of state intrusion they want in the economy , irish people are not remotely idealogical for the most part and a movement like SF requires a very significant dose of idealogy on the part of its voters - supporters

Bannasidhe

miles_away wrote: »

its fcuking enormous !

Hello new poster - I don't think you are the new poster I addressed my question to but you might be as there seems to be a suddenly flurry of new posters making 'contributions' such as yours quoted above.

miles_away

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Are you including contributory old age pensions and child benefit in those figures?
Are you including job seekers benefits where people have made years of prsi payments?
Are you including rent allowance which is paid to private landlords?
Are you including Family Income Supplement which is needed to bring workers income up to a living wage?

of course i am , all those constitute wellfare

i was not making a judgement call , was merely pointing to a fact , ireland has an enormous wellfare state

Reekwind

miles_away wrote: »

as for the rise of sinn fein , understandable why they get a large vote in less wealthy areas but do people feel ok about the level of state intrusion they want in the economy , irish people are not remotely idealogical for the most part and a movement like SF requires a very significant dose of idealogy on the part of its voters - supporters

So Irish people "are not remotely ideological" but are now voting in large numbers for a party that "requires a very significant dose of ideology on the part of its voters". Really?

How do you square that? Without, of course, lapsing into patronising arguments about "less wealthy areas".

miles_away

Reekwind wrote: »

I genuinely don't get this attitude. It wasn't welfare that artificially inflated the economy, it wasn't welfare that caused the crisis, it wasn't welfare that made the politicians run to bail out the banks and it wasn't welfare that saddled the State with absolutely massive debts.

So it's quite baffling when you see people harp on about the 'welfare state' and how 'single mothers' apparently have it easy. Even more so when they (who are simply parroting an unpleasant and dishonest political narrative) are the ones chastising everyone else for swallowing politicians' lies.

Edit:
Have we actually come round to the idea that writing a blank cheque for the banks, despite having no idea how much money was needed to plug the hole, was the right course of action? And this is coming from those urging financial probity?

Sometimes you really do have to laugh.

where did i refer to " single mothers " ?

Geuze

miles_away wrote: »

yes but we only had to bail out the banks once , the wellfare bill is over ten billion every year

Department of Social Protection spending is 20 billion per year.

Total spending on all forms of social transfers is about 27bn.

miles_away

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Hello new poster - I don't think you are the new poster I addressed my question to but you might be as there seems to be a suddenly flurry of new posters making 'contributions' such as yours quoted above.

sounds like you need to get to a teachers ( mods ) room quick to tell them this tale

Banjo String

I LOLd

During the same interview, Mr Kenny got into a somewhat sharp exchange with the host John Keogh.

Mr Kenny was speaking to the broadcaster from the Longford/Westmeath by-election count.

This count saw Fine Gael’s Gabrielle McFadden, sister of the late TD Nicky McFadden, win the seat.

John Keogh attempted to ask Mr Kenny about the renewal of discretionary cards.

“I’m not getting into an argument with you on this night now,” Mr Kenny told the broadcaster.

“I said to your newscaster I would come on to your programme to talk about the by-election here and about the situation in general.

“If you want to do an interview with me some other time about the details about all these other things, I would be happy to.”

John Keogh replied: “Of course you won’t do live interviews with NewsTalk.”

 “No because some of the stuff that you did in the past certainly wasn’t to my liking,” Mr Kenny said.

“If this is your challenge now that I won’t be coming on NewsTalk, you’re wrong. I’m talking to you now.”

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/elections/taoiseach-shows-support-for-troubled-labour-leader-eamon-gilmore-30302635.html

Master debater.

lightspeed

Deleted User wrote: »

Still though it creates a bit of instability and uncertainty within the government. Even poor old Phil Hogan is seemingly in a bit of a panic this morning.
Labour are now at a crossroads. Do they continue to support Hapless Gilmore and the current regime and effectively walk over a political cliff the next election?

Or do they decide to change and actually grow a pair of cajoles for once? Reform and make some sort of a difference. They need new fresh impetus.

Alot of good people in both FG and Labour i have no doubt but both are currently under piss poor weak and gutless leadership. Kenny is a waste of space. Only interested in photo opportunities. The cabinet he surrounds himself with are no better.

Ive little sympathy for labour, if they done agree with labours policies then they should quite and run as an independent. Roisin Shortall quite labour as she disagreed with the policies they pursued when they got into government.

If they cared more about their policies than their pay cheques, they would have done the same.

I think Enda showed poor leadership with the whole Alan Shatter Fiasco. He appeared not to want to give him the boot as it would damage the party politically and wanted to avoid that coming up to the local elections. Then as a result of his inaction, it had that exact effect until pushing him out just a week before the local elections.

Having said that, the country is in a much better way now than when FG first got into power in the last GE and there have been more jobs coming into the country and not just those being exploited on the Jobbridge scheme. Strangely enough, ive not heard the media high jobbridge and its controversy as a sore point amongst the electorate.

miles_away

Reekwind wrote: »

So Irish people "are not remotely ideological" but are now voting in large numbers for a party that "requires a very significant dose of ideology on the part of its voters". Really?

How do you square that? Without, of course, lapsing into patronising arguments about "less wealthy areas".

because people are buying what SF are selling , unfortunatley the buyers - voters havent read the small print , they just find the slogans appealing

restore entitlemts

make the rich pay

etc etc

Red Nissan

Smidge wrote: »

Also typical of some posters on here. Take snippets of a post/reply to a completely different question/post and then use it totally out of context. :rolleyes:

Not at all. I do edit just enough from a post to show, either who I am replying to or and interesting bit.

I don't want to repost the whole thing for a few reasons. One is length, it makes reading so annoying, especially on tiny phone screens and even larger tablets can have difficulty.

I might not agree with the other points or they might contain actual illegal information or be otherwise libelous, in that case I'd be spreading it.

A point can be taken out of context, sure it can and it can change one's entire point ~ debating strategy uses this all the time, which is why no minister will ever actually answer a question.

However, it's also seen a poor debating and shows a side losing.

Geuze

Reekwind wrote: »

I genuinely don't get this attitude. It wasn't welfare that artificially inflated the economy, it wasn't welfare that caused the crisis, it wasn't welfare that made the politicians run to bail out the banks and it wasn't welfare that saddled the State with absolutely massive debts.

So it's quite baffling when you see people harp on about the 'welfare state' and how 'single mothers' apparently have it easy. Even more so when they (who are simply parroting an unpleasant and dishonest political narrative) are the ones chastising everyone else for swallowing politicians' lies.

Edit:
Have we actually come round to the idea that writing a blank cheque for the banks, despite having no idea how much money was needed to plug the hole, was the right course of action? And this is coming from those urging financial probity?

Sometimes you really do have to laugh.

While it's true that the banking crisis cost us 64bn, which is sickening, it's also true that there are too many people on long-term welfare, and not in employment.

Note, this was true during the economic boom, we still had much more people non-active compared to other countries.

A genuine socialist would aim to massively reduce the numbers of welfare with reforms.

Currently, half of the pop are on welfare (this excludes monthly CB) - this figure is too high.

See more here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057080486

WakeUp

lightspeed wrote: »

Sinn Fein and Socialist, People before profit are all selling people magic beans.

Ming would never have got elected were there not a market for his magic beans.

I think if anybody wanted to get elected into politics, all you need to do is knock on doors and tell people that there should be no water tax, property tax, no cuts to child welfare, tax higher earners more, invest more in education, health service, public transport.

Completely disregard, financial and economic realities though. That is a must.

We are still spending more than we take in, sill have large debt to repay, people are living longer with no cuts to the pension and yet the fund for that was used for the banks. Huge overspend in health care. Thanks to the unions these left wing parties support, we have some of the best paid bus and rail drivers in the world and also one of the most expensive public transports network in the world.

40% of the country on medical cards.
Pretty high unemployment benefits which are well more generous than other EU countries and are given on a permanent basis unlike other EU countries.

Single mothers can easily get rent allowance for housing which is not in all other EU countries.

Child benefit (yes a financial benefit for increasing the population) which they dont have in other Eu countries.

Cheaper education than most other EU countries.

A water service that is in need of costly repairs and restoration.

When Fianna Fail were growing the economy by creating a property boom and knocking on doors, persuading people to vote for them, those that did should be questioning why did i buy the magic beans that those clowns were selling me?

When people hear sinn fein, socialist party etc, talk how we should not have any of the new taxes being introduced, for the people who trust their policies , do you not feel as silly and stupid as the people who years ago bought the magic beans that Fianna Faill sold people at the doorsteps?

What economic evidence or financial data have people who support sinn fein seen that proves we can avoid such taxes and maintain the current services?

If you have seen no evidence and still trust in their policies, how is it not the

equivalent to buying magic beans?

Magic beans certainly exist when the banks need bailing out. Then we have to pay them back + interest. Greece received a write down on their debt to the sum 110billion because they pushed their case and they got it. We have done everything asked of us the people have suffered terribly and even though we have done all that has been asked of us still no deal. why is this. its because our diplomats involved in the negotiations on our behalf appear to have neither the skill nor the boll0x to force the issue and make it happen. The EU promised that they would look at the issue and they have not lived up to this promise. Like everyone else Ive had to suck it up I understand cuts needed to be made and still do, and I understand that we have to endure pain and everyone has. Though personally speaking Im not prepared to hold my tongue any longer over the outstanding issue of retroactive debt relief as I believe we are entitled to it. The softly softly approach has not worked I mean its a joke really. Its time we took them on properly to get what we want way past the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNgEMmvxBKI

miles_away

Geuze wrote: »

Department of Social Protection spending is 20 billion per year.

Total spending on all forms of social transfers is about 27bn.

thank you , are you including the spend on health and education in that figure though ?