DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

neilthefunkeone

adrian522 wrote: »

Goes right by my house so no excuse really...

Yep same.. Actually i have to pass the house twice!!

slingerz

Did 3K today after the 6 mile race Wednesday. Legs felt heavy but I often find it difficult to go straight after work

Nicsx

8.7miles in glorious sunshine this morning. Isn't this country great when the sun shines? Best of luck to everyone running in Terenure on Sunday morning!

Ososlo

rebel hoop wrote: »

Just to follow up on Darren 83 query about mp miles during a LSR...is there anything to be gained from it or am I just better off keeping it slow and easy? Going by the training programme I'm going to follow 5 miles is the most in any run I'm going to be running at mp...it seems very low would this be the norm? Also at what point do I decide what my marathon pace is going to be? at the moment I'm comfortable running 9 minute miles and run my LSR at 10 minute mile pace.

Guys, I appreciate your concerns about not having many mp miles in your training programme. When I was training last year, I was constantly querying as to why I was not to do more marathon pace miles. How can I be expected to run 26.2 miles at mp if I only run 4 at mp at the end of my long run once a week? (I was doing less mp miles than on this year's programme but I was doing a tempo run instead once a week.)
I'll try to explain in my very simple way, why I think it's not recommended for novice marathon runners to do too many mp miles in training but if someone more experienced can explain it better then please jump in.

It's your first marathon. The main goal has to be to get to the start line healthy and injury free. These long runs are unknown territory for most of you. You don't know how your body is going to handle an 18 or 20 mile run. Maybe you'll handle it great and can do more than what's on your programme. But it's unchartered waters. For nearly everyone who hasn't done a marathon before (unless you're a highly conditioned athlete), you're going to feel pretty much wiped out after a 18 or 20 mile run no matter how easy you run them. The long run is going to stress out your body. You'll need a lot of time to recover from it. Time on your feet is what's important here, not pace. Run too much and too fast and it's likely you'll end up injured or sick. You have to test the waters with these runs and see what you can handle safely.
I don't think anyone should worry at this point about how many mp miles they have in their programme. Why not just wait and see in a few months time how you're handling the increased mileage and then, if you still feel unchallenged and that you could handle more, you could add in extra mp miles into your mp mid-week run or your lsr, and there'll be plenty of people here who can help you revise your schedule. Take it one step at a time.
Time on your feet in training is what's important and what will ensure you have a good marathon experience.

@rebel hoop - I don't think you should set yourself a marathon target until after you do a half marathon. That'll give you a really good idea of what you should be capable of doing on the day. Make sure to include a half marathon race about 6 weeks out from the big day. For the moment, keep your long and easy and recovery runs at a very comfortable pace.

Kurt Godel

Ososlo wrote: »

The long run is going to stress out your body. You'll need a lot of time to recover from it. Time on your feet is what's important here, not pace. Run too much and too fast and it's likely you'll end up injured or sick. You have to test the waters with these runs and see what you can handle safely.
I don't think anyone should worry at this point about how many mp miles they have in their programme. Why not just wait and see in a few months time how you're handling the increased mileage and then, if you still feel unchallenged and that you could handle more, you could add in extra mp miles into your mp mid-week run or your lsr, and there'll be plenty of people here who can help you revise your schedule. Take it one step at a time.
Time on your feet in training is what's important and what will ensure you have a good marathon experience.

Lots of different ways to train for an endurance event, but the above is a brilliant synopsis of what group training for beginners should consist of. You guys are spoiled having Ososlo as a mentor; she really knows her stuff!

Dub13

I am surprised there has been no talk of diet/nutrition here, did the class of 2013 ( ) talk about this area much..?

ecoli

Dub13 wrote: »

I am surprised there has been no talk of diet/nutrition here, did the class of 2013 ( ) talk about this area much..?

Usually kicks in as the mileage/ appetite increase

Firedance

Dub13 wrote: »

I am surprised there has been no talk of diet/nutrition here, did the class of 2013 ( ) talk about this area much..?

this is something id be interested in hearing more about, especially peoples experience of what foods give optimum energy

AuldManKing

Regarding long runs and MP runs, I agree with Ososlos assessment.

As an example, I recently ran a 3 hr marathon and my mp runs were ran as part of a weekly 10 miler. 2*3miles as opposed to 6 straight miles.

On a long run it alternated from 3-4 miles at either the middle or end of a run.

Like you, I was worried about the lack of MP miles, but learning to trust the plan is a key ingredient.

AuldManKing

Firedance wrote: »

this is something id be interested in hearing more about, especially peoples experience of what foods give optimum energy

Carbs and more carbs.
Trying things now is good as you get to see what works for you sooner rather than later.

As it's your 1st marathon, I'd keep it simple on nutrition. Just eat more as the miles increase.
Porridge, spuds, rice etc. Don't forget about protein after long runs or hard workouts.

Kurt Godel

Finnt wrote: »

I've been reading "advanced marathoning" in it they talk about replacing recovery runs with cross training. Just wondering what people think of this and what are peoples experiences of it?

This is a very good question that there is no definitive answer for. As discussed in the P&D book, specificity is king (ie. run+run will benefit an runner more so than run+swim), but this is more prevalent towards the top end. Personally I think non-impact swims and bikes are hugely beneficial to a run program, but more so when the running aspect of the program is of high intensity (pace runs, fartlek, intervals, rather than LSR's). There the non-impact "recovery" training helps alleviate injuries that might come about from more "recovery" runs on tired and stressed legs.

However the general plan in this novice thread seems to be a slower, "time on your feet" emphasis. In that case, doing your recovery as "recovery runs" rather than "recovery bike/swim/ski/ellipse" will have more benefit. The main purpose of recovery training is to add more stress to tired legs, without risking injury. In the case of a "more slow miles" marathon program, doing slow recovery runs will add more. By all means though, throw in the odd bike spin for variety, or swim for the all-body benefits (often better and cheaper than a physio). But perhaps add these as extras, rather than replacing slow short recovery runs. The plan is the plan is the plan, and you all look to be in very good hands in that regard.

RedRunner

Firedance wrote: »

this is something id be interested in hearing more about, especially peoples experience of what foods give optimum energy

Simple....protein after hard workouts such as long runs and speed sessions then build up carbs towards end week just in time for long run and repeat the cycle. I know this is very simplistic but you need the protein to help repair the micro muscle damage after hard runs and the carbs for storing energy before them.

Edit: I recommend Nancy Clark's book "Sports Nutrition Guidebook" as a good reference book in this regard.

ecoli

Firedance wrote: »

this is something id be interested in hearing more about, especially peoples experience of what foods give optimum energy

Keep it simple

Breakfasts - Porridge, peanut butter on brown toast, eggs - Fruit is ok in the mornings but to be honest if you are just eating that you can get a sugar crash and the cravings start to kick in pre lunch. Always good to get a bit of protein with high saiety that is relatively healthy to aim to keep you full for longer

Lunch/Dinner - again try stay health - if you are like me you can be lazy with prep but you can still make healthy stuff quick, tuna salad, stirfry, pasta and meat mixes

Best advice I can give is plan out your meals and make a conscious choice of meals. Even if you actively choose to eat unhealthy (a few beers, takeaway etc) sometimes you have earned it. The worst thing is piling in the crisps/sweets etc habitually without realizing it.

drquirky

Ososlo wrote: »

Guys, I appreciate your concerns about not having many mp miles in your training programme. When I was training last year, I was constantly querying as to why I was not to do more marathon pace miles. How can I be expected to run 26.2 miles at mp if I only run 4 at mp at the end of my long run once a week? (I was doing less mp miles than on this year's programme but I was doing a tempo run instead once a week.)
I'll try to explain in my very simple way, why I think it's not recommended for novice marathon runners to do too many mp miles in training but if someone more experienced can explain it better then please jump in.

It's your first marathon. The main goal has to be to get to the start line healthy and injury free. These long runs are unknown territory for most of you. You don't know how your body is going to handle an 18 or 20 mile run. Maybe you'll handle it great and can do more than what's on your programme. But it's unchartered waters. For nearly everyone who hasn't done a marathon before (unless you're a highly conditioned athlete), you're going to feel pretty much wiped out after a 18 or 20 mile run no matter how easy you run them. The long run is going to stress out your body. You'll need a lot of time to recover from it. Time on your feet is what's important here, not pace. Run too much and too fast and it's likely you'll end up injured or sick. You have to test the waters with these runs and see what you can handle safely.
I don't think anyone should worry at this point about how many mp miles they have in their programme. Why not just wait and see in a few months time how you're handling the increased mileage and then, if you still feel unchallenged and that you could handle more, you could add in extra mp miles into your mp mid-week run or your lsr, and there'll be plenty of people here who can help you revise your schedule. Take it one step at a time.
Time on your feet in training is what's important and what will ensure you have a good marathon experience.

@rebel hoop - I don't think you should set yourself a marathon target until after you do a half marathon. That'll give you a really good idea of what you should be capable of doing on the day. Make sure to include a half marathon race about 6 weeks out from the big day. For the moment, keep your long and easy and recovery runs at a very comfortable pace.

x100

Great post.

Firedance

ecoli wrote: »

Keep it simple

Breakfasts - Porridge, peanut butter on brown toast, eggs - Fruit is ok in the mornings but to be honest if you are just eating that you can get a sugar crash and the cravings start to kick in pre lunch. Always good to get a bit of protein with high saiety that is relatively healthy to aim to keep you full for longer

Lunch/Dinner - again try stay health - if you are like me you can be lazy with prep but you can still make healthy stuff quick, tuna salad, stirfry, pasta and meat mixes

Best advice I can give is plan out your meals and make a conscious choice of meals. Even if you actively choose to eat unhealthy (a few beers, takeaway etc) sometimes you have earned it. The worst thing is piling in the crisps/sweets etc habitually without realizing it.

thanks ecoli, i have a pretty healthy diet but while a bowl of porridge keeps me going on a normal day i find its not enough to get through a longer run at the weekend - i also seem to have blood sugar dips anything over 9 miles so im hoping to find other foods that will keep me going for longer. Dinner is usually a stir fry with lots of veg & either chicken or salmon

Will have a look at that book redrunner, thanks

AuldManKing

Firedance wrote: »

thanks ecoli, i have a pretty healthy diet but while a bowl of porridge keeps me going on a normal day i find its not enough to get through a longer run at the weekend - i also seem to have blood sugar dips anything over 9 miles so im hoping to find other foods that will keep me going for longer. Dinner is usually a stir fry with lots of veg & either chicken or salmon

Will have a look at that book redrunner, thanks

For the long runs, eat more the 2 days beforehand. Don't rely just on your breakfast.

Gels may help during the run.

AK333

Hi folks, was looking forward to this thread, I'm going to do the Boards 2014 plan, distances look doable. Great opening threads ososlow, I have a nice bit of reading to catch up on! :eek:

I'm running about 3 to 4 years, I'm extremely slow, female and hitting the big 50 this year - I don't have a goal time, but I'm quite competitive so don't just want to do it, I want to have a good go at it.

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)

My times are very unimpressive, I'm embarrassed putting them up. Folks say its the competing that matters, not the time, but any runner knows that's BS - we all want to go faster/better.
5k (jan 14) - 32 mins
10 mile Dungarvan - 1.54 - hated every minute of this race
10K Annerville May 14 - 68.10

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training ? (No problem if you do)
Not all the time, but sometimes the head just says stop

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
I run about 4 times a week - train at a Club on Mondays

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?
I just want to do it - run all the way - no walking and enjoy it

How many days a week can you train?
Every day really if I get my lardy a*se off the couch

Why are you running this marathon?
I'm 50 in two days and this is my goal for this year - I'm always making excuses for my poor running performances due to my age, about time I "manned" up and just did it.

Darren 83

AK333 wrote: »

Hi folks, was looking forward to this thread, I'm going to do the Boards 2014 plan, distances look doable. Great opening threads ososlow, I have a nice bit of reading to catch up on! :eek:

I'm running about 3 to 4 years, I'm extremely slow, female and hitting the big 50 this year - I don't have a goal time, but I'm quite competitive so don't just want to do it, I want to have a good go at it.

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)

My times are very unimpressive, I'm embarrassed putting them up. Folks say its the competing that matters, not the time, but any runner knows that's BS - we all want to go faster/better.
5k (jan 14) - 32 mins
10 mile Dungarvan - 1.54 - hated every minute of this race
10K Annerville May 14 - 68.10

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training ? (No problem if you do)
Not all the time, but sometimes the head just says stop

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
I run about 4 times a week - train at a Club on Mondays

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?
I just want to do it - run all the way - no walking and enjoy it

How many days a week can you train?
Every day really if I get my lardy a*se off the couch

Why are you running this marathon?
I'm 50 in two days and this is my goal for this year - I'm always making excuses for my poor running performances due to my age, about time I "manned" up and just did it.

Fair play AK333, I wouldn't worry about your time or age. There are plenty of people who never ran in there life before never mind plan to run a marathon.

rebel hoop

Ososlo wrote: »

Guys, I appreciate your concerns about not having many mp miles in your training programme. When I was training last year, I was constantly querying as to why I was not to do more marathon pace miles. How can I be expected to run 26.2 miles at mp if I only run 4 at mp at the end of my long run once a week? (I was doing less mp miles than on this year's programme but I was doing a tempo run instead once a week.)
I'll try to explain in my very simple way, why I think it's not recommended for novice marathon runners to do too many mp miles in training but if someone more experienced can explain it better then please jump in.

It's your first marathon. The main goal has to be to get to the start line healthy and injury free. These long runs are unknown territory for most of you. You don't know how your body is going to handle an 18 or 20 mile run. Maybe you'll handle it great and can do more than what's on your programme. But it's unchartered waters. For nearly everyone who hasn't done a marathon before (unless you're a highly conditioned athlete), you're going to feel pretty much wiped out after a 18 or 20 mile run no matter how easy you run them. The long run is going to stress out your body. You'll need a lot of time to recover from it. Time on your feet is what's important here, not pace. Run too much and too fast and it's likely you'll end up injured or sick. You have to test the waters with these runs and see what you can handle safely.
I don't think anyone should worry at this point about how many mp miles they have in their programme. Why not just wait and see in a few months time how you're handling the increased mileage and then, if you still feel unchallenged and that you could handle more, you could add in extra mp miles into your mp mid-week run or your lsr, and there'll be plenty of people here who can help you revise your schedule. Take it one step at a time.
Time on your feet in training is what's important and what will ensure you have a good marathon experience.

@rebel hoop - I don't think you should set yourself a marathon target until after you do a half marathon. That'll give you a really good idea of what you should be capable of doing on the day. Make sure to include a half marathon race about 6 weeks out from the big day. For the moment, keep your long and easy and recovery runs at a very comfortable pace.

Thanks Ososlo....slow and easy...I'm good at that 8 miles done and dusted this morning for 8 am. 10 min/mile pace. Beautiful morning out there.

Ososlo

AK333 wrote: »

Hi folks, was looking forward to this thread, I'm going to do the Boards 2014 plan, distances look doable. Great opening threads ososlow, I have a nice bit of reading to catch up on! :eek:

I'm running about 3 to 4 years, I'm extremely slow, female and hitting the big 50 this year - I don't have a goal time, but I'm quite competitive so don't just want to do it, I want to have a good go at it.

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)

My times are very unimpressive, I'm embarrassed putting them up. Folks say its the competing that matters, not the time, but any runner knows that's BS - we all want to go faster/better.
5k (jan 14) - 32 mins
10 mile Dungarvan - 1.54 - hated every minute of this race
10K Annerville May 14 - 68.10

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training ? (No problem if you do)
Not all the time, but sometimes the head just says stop

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
I run about 4 times a week - train at a Club on Mondays

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?
I just want to do it - run all the way - no walking and enjoy it

How many days a week can you train?
Every day really if I get my lardy a*se off the couch

Why are you running this marathon?
I'm 50 in two days and this is my goal for this year - I'm always making excuses for my poor running performances due to my age, about time I "manned" up and just did it.

Welcome to the thread AK333 and delighted to have you part of this year's thread.
I love your attitude. Being competitive with yourself is what really matters. You seem very committed and determined to do this marathon and do it properly. I think you have a cracking goal there - to complete it in a good time running the whole way and enjoying it. That's pretty much what I did last year and if stick to the programme and manage your recoveries well there's no reason in the world why you won't achieve your goal.
Don't be embarrassed by your times at all. You're still relatively new to the sport so there's loads of time for improvement. Some of us just improve at a slower rates than others - like myself. And personally I don't think it's anything to do with age etc, it's just how we're made:) But you will improve, don't doubt that for a second. Simply running more miles with this marathon training programme should help you along when it comes to getting faster for the shorter distances.
What kind of running are you doing with your club? Are any of your club mates doing the marathon too? Might be nice to have company on some of your long runs.
Truly great to have you on board:D

rom

As a graduate of this thread in 2011 I want to just make 2 points. 1. Race ready shorts are great but make sure to tie them tight or you will realize that you a$$ was on show for the last 10k as what happened to me in Berlin in Sept and two a long run is not practicing running the race. The goal of the long run is make your body adapt to burn fat as fuel. I run all my long runs @ at least a minute slower than my pmp and it works. This was learned the hard way.

AK333

Ososlo wrote: »

Welcome to the thread AK333 and delighted to have you part of this year's thread.
Simply running more miles with this marathon training programme should help you along when it comes to getting faster for the shorter distances.
What kind of running are you doing with your club? Are any of your club mates doing the marathon too? Might be nice to have company on some of your long runs.
Truly great to have you on board:D

Thanks for the welcome. My group at the Club just doing laps of the track really, with a few sprints thrown in - then we have club training runs at different times that aim for a particular race - normally a race the Club is organising. There are some members that run 10 miles / HM on a continuing basis but they are faster than me and I don't have enough miles in my legs to join them yet - but I soon will

I haven't told any of the Club members that I am planning on doing DCM, I want to get the miles in the legs, plan to do the Boston Scientific HM in August (I did it last year), and once I put a good time in there, then tell them. Did 8k with the club this morning - the Poulmucka 8k route, quite hilly, so its a start. Earlier in the year I was doing between 15/20 miles, down to 10/15 now, but its all very real now - better get moving.

Ososlo

Great positive attitude there AK333! Build up slowly and steadily now to get back up to the required mileage by the start of the plan and you'll be well set up. Lots of time to do that. The club runs sound like they'll do wonders for your confidence and progression.

Pacing Mule

AK333 wrote: »

Hi folks, was looking forward to this thread, I'm going to do the Boards 2014 plan, distances look doable. Great opening threads ososlow, I have a nice bit of reading to catch up on! :eek:

I'm running about 3 to 4 years, I'm extremely slow, female and hitting the big 50 this year - I don't have a goal time, but I'm quite competitive so don't just want to do it, I want to have a good go at it.

......

My times are very unimpressive, I'm embarrassed putting them up. Folks say its the competing that matters, not the time, but any runner knows that's BS - we all want to go faster/better.

Happy birthday

Welcome to the journey !

There is nothing to be embarassed about. I'd slightly correct your statement there. The competition is against yourself not everyone else. Of course at the finishing straight you are going to want to beat those around you ! But the race itself is you against your personal best, your training, your fitness level, your circumstances and hopefully rewards your effort to improve those. Don't get hung up on other peoples times. For everyone bar the world record holder there is always someone faster and always someone slower.

slingerz

Planning to do 10 to 12 miles early tomorrow morning last long run before the Cork half in June. Going to take it really slow tomorrow anyway and try out a few gels. Hopefully the half in Cork sets me up for DCM properly!

vitani

Gorgeous day for running today. Nice way to start the weekend. Good to read the nutritional advice over the last two pages - I've decided to cop on when it comes to my diet so I've pretty much given up sugar. While I think it's going to be good in the long-term, my energy levels have been low all week, so hoping I get over this slump soon.

frash

Did a 15 mile LSR this morning.
Last two miles were a killer though so maybe I should start taking gels on them?

It was a hot day though and to be honest my pacing was all over the shop.

Also do people take any isotonic drinks after a LSR?
Drank loads of water and juice but just felt I needed something else.

Darren 83

frash wrote: »

Did a 15 mile LSR this morning.
Last two miles were a killer though so maybe I should start taking gels on them?

It was a hot day though and to be honest my pacing was all over the shop.

Also do people take any isotonic drinks after a LSR?
Drank loads of water and juice but just felt I needed something else.

I wouldn't drink too much water can lead to diluting the sodium level in your body, no harm in experimenting with gels to see what works for you.

SamforMayo

frash wrote: »

Did a 15 mile LSR this morning.
Last two miles were a killer though so maybe I should start taking gels on them?

It was a hot day though and to be honest my pacing was all over the shop.

Also do people take any isotonic drinks after a LSR?
Drank loads of water and juice but just felt I needed something else.

Before I started trying the gels which I didn't bother with until 17/18 mile Lsr simply cause I hate them I used to take an isotonic drink during the LSR but I needed water as well as they are so sweet. Maybe try a banana or nature valley bar for some thing extra. Well done though 15 miles at this stages is great.

Ososlo

frash wrote: »

Did a 15 mile LSR this morning.
Last two miles were a killer though so maybe I should start taking gels on them?

It was a hot day though and to be honest my pacing was all over the shop.

Also do people take any isotonic drinks after a LSR?
Drank loads of water and juice but just felt I needed something else.

Opinions will vary as to hydration needs on a long run so you need to find out what works for you - so experiment!

Make sure you're starting out the long run at a nice easy effort you feel you can sustain for a long duration. Don't be killing yourself at the start so you end up getting slower and slower.
I'd always make sure to be very well hydrated in the lead up to a longer run like you did today. A good way to ensure you're well hydrated is to check your pee and it should be a very pale straw-like colour;) To me, pre-hydration (but not excessive) is the key to meeting your fluid needs on a long run.

However, I'd usually bring a drink with me on a longer run (13+ miles) and especially as it was warm today too you'd likely be loosing a lot of fluid through sweat. I'd be a bit of a sweaty betty so would need to replenish the loss of salt through sweat! I wouldn't tend to bother with a gel except to practice using them for the full marathon. You've a long way to go 'till October 27th so might be totally sick of gels if you start using them a lot now! But no harm to try the odd one here and there to see what suits you.
I'd carry a bottle with some diluted Lucozade Sport (I find it a bit concentrated to drink straight) and might drop a nunn tablet in to aid in the replenishment of electrolytes. There are many other types of salt replacement tablets too. Lucozade Sports drink (orange flavour) was what was on offer in DCM last year and will likely be the same this year so might be a good idea to get used to drinking this but again, you'll be totally sick of it if you drink it on every long run between now and October:eek:
We'll be going into this in a lot more detail in the coming weeks. To be honest, I didn't think there'd be many folks running 15 mile long runs at this point!
edit: checked back on my own log from this time last year and I was doing 14 miles at this point! You're not as mad as I thought!!!