Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

bobcoffee

Come on guys this is not america, you guys are old enough to see opinion polls mean little :P

Its Ireland, you can get out loans you would never be able to pay, create dodgy business's, bankrupt a country and then make an illegal organization out of it... might as well call it... NAMA lolz

fr3d12

bobcoffee wrote: »

Come on guys this is not america, you guys are old enough to see opinion polls mean little :P

Its Ireland, you can get out loans you would never be able to pay, create dodgy business's, bankrupt a country and then make an illegal organization out of it... might as well call it... NAMA lolz

What's wrong with this country is people giving the Govt. and TD's in general the benefit of the doubt like Godge wants us all to do.

I don't think much of opinion polls but I'm sure if the same polls were taken tomorrow the results would differ a lot.

Godge

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Grabbing at straws is no help to your case.

Ha, ha, you think the opinion polls are against Shatter? Oh dear.

fr3d12 wrote: »

What's wrong with this country is people giving the Govt. and TD's in general the benefit of the doubt like Godge wants us all to do.

I don't think much of opinion polls but I'm sure if the same polls were taken tomorrow the results would differ a lot.

This country elected gombeen FF governments for most of the last 80 years, why do you think anything has changed?

fr3d12

Godge wrote: »

Ha, ha, you think the opinion polls are against Shatter? Oh dear.



This country elected gombeen FF governments for most of the last 80 years, why do you think anything has changed?

FF and FG are both sides of the same coin, the only issues FG had with FF during the "boom" was that they weren't spending enough, very weak opposition and even weaker in Govt.

I think you fail to see the seriousness of this situation, a dossier has been with the MoJ for the last two years and was either overlooked or ignored both of which are gross incompetence at the very least and that is only the tip of the iceberg.
Shatter perhaps was too busy with the real issues as he saw them, like his mission to make citizenship easier to attain.
Do you need reminding of how critical he was in opposition of FF after the Morris report yet his only interest in this issue was to make it go away as fast as possible.
IF he believed everything he was told by others in relation to this then he has failed in his duty and should be ran out the door of Leinster house.
The only reason the electorate voted in this bunch of gombeen men in 2011 was because they weren't the other bunch.
Let me ask you this, what is your opinion of the whistleblowers?

bobcoffee

FF - FG same entity
both needs the others uselessness to survive.
maybe random shotgun guy might sort out a few issues but I'm sure Polls will never make any distance.

If onyl labour kicked out pat rabbitte a long time ago they could have run the country.
Then if SF got in who would be the "real opposition"

I remember my granny a long time ago appoligised for voting for FF but said "there was no one else to vote for"
Not much has changed.

fr3d12

bobcoffee wrote: »

FF - FG same entity
both needs the others uselessness to survive.
maybe random shotgun guy might sort out a few issues but I'm sure Polls will never make any distance.

If onyl labour kicked out pat rabbitte a long time ago they could have run the country.
Then if SF got in who would be the "real opposition"

I remember my granny a long time ago appoligised for voting for FF but said "there was no one else to vote for"
Not much has changed.

I see your Granny's point.
We vote in one bunch of wasters hoping they will be different than the shower before them yet we know in our hearts the new crowd will be equally as useless to the people of Ireland.
They get 5 years to grab what they can for themselves before they're kicked out and the whole things starts all over again.

bajer101

Godge wrote: »

Why are you baffled?

Everyone else in the country, apart from some posters on here, is prepared to give the government the benefit of the doubt on this issue.

Some of the people on here were confidently predicting Shatter and Callinan would be gone two weeks ago. It didn't happen.

They were basing it on hacking of emails and other stuff that also didn't happen.

The internet has a weird way of hyping up prejudices and making scandals larger than they appear.

There is also the fact that the poll results were based on nearly week old data. Events have moved on quite considerably since those polls were taken. We also have had RTE and the Indo spinning the Govt line - especially in the earlier part of all this. Since those polls were taken, the Indo and RTE have begun the see the way the wind was blowing and have reacted somewhat to criticism from commentators and have started to to broadcast and publish more balanced pieces.

If polls were conducted today, I think we would see different results. But there will always be core FG and FF supporters who will always support their party no matter what.

hatrickpatrick

Godge let me just ask you something: Forgetting about the polls, do you, personally, feel that Shatter and/or Callinan should in fact resign?

I'm a little confused as to whether you're arguing in favour of these two, or simply stating that you don't believe the general public has that big a problem with them.

Godge

bajer101 wrote: »

There is also the fact that the poll results were based on nearly week old data. Events have moved on quite considerably since those polls were taken. We also have had RTE and the Indo spinning the Govt line - especially in the earlier part of all this. Since those polls were taken, the Indo and RTE have begun the see the way the wind was blowing and have reacted somewhat to criticism from commentators and have started to to broadcast and publish more balanced pieces.

If polls were conducted today, I think we would see different results. But there will always be core FG and FF supporters who will always support their party no matter what.

It is disappearing off the news.

From what we are reading today in relation to the whistleblower allegations, he was being listened to but failed to provide any evidence.

bobcoffee

RTE only reports what they are told to report.
Especially once FG got in, shows canceled out of no where.
Reporting about what the finance minister illegal, not sure if that was just for one moment and people took it out of context.

Polls are really just a form of manipulation, in the eyes of the beholder and all that.

bajer101

Godge wrote: »

It is disappearing off the news.

From what we are reading today in relation to the whistleblower allegations, he was being listened to but failed to provide any evidence.

Disappearing off the news??? There were lead items on Radio 1 and Newstalk this morning. There is a new Whistleblower coming forward. GSOCGate is subject to a "review" at the very least. The Taoiseach is waiting for an appendix to the dossier from Michael Martin and has to comment then. There is a High Court case due to start today suing the State in relation to Jerry McGrath.

Shatter and Callinan are focusing on a letter that invited McCabe to assist the O'Mahoney investigation, that at the very most will get them off the hook on one technicality. Other than that one issue, everything else is gathering momentum.

According to Alistair Campbell's 11 day rule, if a Minister is under pressure and the story remains in the media for 11 consecutive days, then that minister should resign. We're on Day 15 now. Shatter will never voluntarily resign and Enda will be loathe to give him the push, but we're less than eight weeks away from the local elections and The Labour Party must be getting very anxious.

adrag

Shatter,callinan and kenny are gone into the criminal mentality of lets see wat they have before we plead.sickening really

renegademaster

bobcoffee wrote: »

FF - FG same entity
both needs the others uselessness to survive.
maybe random shotgun guy might sort out a few issues but I'm sure Polls will never make any distance.

If onyl labour kicked out pat rabbitte a long time ago they could have run the country.
Then if SF got in who would be the "real opposition"

I remember my granny a long time ago appoligised for voting for FF but said "there was no one else to vote for"
Not much has changed.

i this video, ye mightn't like it but i am delighted when i see politicians getting hounded. more of this and those just in it for the money will soon fcuk off out of it!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_nMHuqX2ME

Floppybits

adrag wrote: »

Shatter,callinan and kenny are gone into the criminal mentality of lets see wat they have before we plead.sickening really

I have a feeling with what has come over the last few days and with Callinan's performance at the Commitee calling the whistleblowers disgraceful, that Callinan is going to be thrown in front of the bus to save Shatter.

I'd say they are scrambling around the department of Justice now looking for some escape for Shatter and remember Kenny has known about this as well for couple of years.

Banjo String

Godge wrote: »

It is disappearing off the news.

Oh how some folk wish this was true.

It's gathering momentum.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/two-garda-whistleblowers-contact-ff-over-more-allegations-623459.html

cruizer101

Nice timeline of events done here on broadsheet, long enough read but worth it to see the extent of corruption.

TheHappyChappy

cruizer101 wrote: »

Nice timeline of events done here on broadsheet, long enough read but worth it to see the extent of corruption.

yep, worth the read to see extent of corruption

adrag

Was callinan part of the heavy gang in the 70's,80's

fr3d12

Godge wrote: »

It is disappearing off the news.

From what we are reading today in relation to the whistleblower allegations, he was being listened to but failed to provide any evidence.

I've asked you already, it's a simple question.
What do you personally think of the whistleblowers ?

Godge

fr3d12 wrote: »

I've asked you already, it's a simple question.
What do you personally think of the whistleblowers ?

I don't know what to think.

(1) They have made allegations. It is one thing to make an allegation, it is another to prove it or even to make it believable.
(2) No police force is perfect, that doesn't mean every police force is corrupt.
(3) Are there gardai who have messed things up through incompetence? Yes, most definitely, same as teachers, nurses, doctors or anyone else messes up from time to time
(4) Have some gardai shown undue deference towards celebrities, judges and others in the penalty points scandal? Yes, it is certain that some have.
(5) Does all of this mean that the whistleblowers are right about corruption? At the very least, I would have to say, not yet, because we haven't seen the evidence.

So should Shatter and Callinan resign in disgrace now? No, not now, as we have nothing on them yet. In the future? Possibly, depending on what is found.

sopretty

While the level of incompetence within the gardai may be no higher than within any organisation, what is different within the gardai, to me at least, is the level of ass-covering, right up to the highest levels of AGS, which bothers me. Current allegations, suggest extreme corruption, again, to me at least, within every echelon of AGS and going right up to the Minister for Justice.

fr3d12

Godge wrote: »

I don't know what to think.

(1) They have made allegations. It is one thing to make an allegation, it is another to prove it or even to make it believable.
(2) No police force is perfect, that doesn't mean every police force is corrupt.
(3) Are there gardai who have messed things up through incompetence? Yes, most definitely, same as teachers, nurses, doctors or anyone else messes up from time to time
(4) Have some gardai shown undue deference towards celebrities, judges and others in the penalty points scandal? Yes, it is certain that some have.
(5) Does all of this mean that the whistleblowers are right about corruption? At the very least, I would have to say, not yet, because we haven't seen the evidence.

So should Shatter and Callinan resign in disgrace now? No, not now, as we have nothing on them yet. In the future? Possibly, depending on what is found.

(1)I agree there has to be proof and from what I can tell there is.
Mrs Lynch who was first attacked by Jerry McGrath has told her shocking side of the story, she was visited at her home and contacted on the phone by senior Gardai who tried to blame Mr. McCabe for McGrath getting bail and telling her not to go to court. This woman has no reason to lie at all and that is just one example, Read the broadsheet.ie article posted by Cruizer101
There is also the Boylan affair, This scumbag was basically dealing drugs with a value in the millions while the Gardai either turned a blind eye or gave their blessing,IMO that is corruption,Along with FG FF have a lot of questions to answer with regard to this.
(2)No police force is perfect I agree but when such issues arise the Commissioner has a duty to the people of this state to investigate fully which Callinan did not do, either he's incompetent and not up to the job or he had other motives both of which are sackable offences.
(3)There has to be zero tolerance when it comes to Gardai incompetence,lives are at stake pure and simple. The same goes for incompetence in the medical profession.
(4)The penalty points scandal is shocking to say the least, the cronyism has to end and if we as a nation lose confidence with the institution who is entrusted with the security of the state we are in trouble.
(5)Really? The evidence is there, again I refer you to the Lynch affair.
I would believe that woman over Callinan or Shatter anyday and I also want to see the penalty point investigation report made public record.

Callinan and Shatter along with many others should not be allowed resign, they should be sacked, investigated and charged if they are found to have been involved in anything untoward.
Despite what you think FG has done irrepairable damage to the image of the party with the (mis)handling of this and Labour's inaction is damning also.
Enda and his Govt. has proved once again their apathy toward the people of Ireland yet when the next election comes how many of them will have the liathroidi to face the electorate!
They will slink off into the sunset with huge payments and pensions, in the words of Callinan it is disgusting!

adrag

Godge wrote: »

I don't know what to think.

(1) They have made allegations. It is one thing to make an allegation, it is another to prove it or even to make it believable.
(2) No police force is perfect, that doesn't mean every police force is corrupt.
(3) Are there gardai who have messed things up through incompetence? Yes, most definitely, same as teachers, nurses, doctors or anyone else messes up from time to time
(4) Have some gardai shown undue deference towards celebrities, judges and others in the penalty points scandal? Yes, it is certain that some have.
(5) Does all of this mean that the whistleblowers are right about corruption? At the very least, I would have to say, not yet, because we haven't seen the evidence.

So should Shatter and Callinan resign in disgrace now? No, not now, as we have nothing on them yet. In the future? Possibly, depending on what is found.

While teachers an nurses make mistakes its more serious when its ags because they are masters of making corruption look like a mistake,this is how clever and sneaky they are.Look they have years and years of practising.Some people will defend the indefencible no matter what they know.reminds me of bishop casey affair .when 3aul wans outside mass said even if its true about a child it was the temprest sent by the divil himself to corrupt him.****ing gas really

Muahahaha

adrag wrote: »

Was callinan part of the heavy gang in the 70's,80's

I can't be 100% on this but it was said that in the 70's Callinan was based in the Cavan/Monaghan district and that when the families of the victims of the Monaghan bombing went asking questions at the ineptitude of the investigation it was Callinan who was sent out to bully and harass them into shutting their mouths.

Muahahaha

Godge wrote: »

I don't know what to think.

(1) They have made allegations. It is one thing to make an allegation, it is another to prove it or even to make it believable.
(2) No police force is perfect, that doesn't mean every police force is corrupt.
(3) Are there gardai who have messed things up through incompetence? Yes, most definitely, same as teachers, nurses, doctors or anyone else messes up from time to time
(4) Have some gardai shown undue deference towards celebrities, judges and others in the penalty points scandal? Yes, it is certain that some have.
(5) Does all of this mean that the whistleblowers are right about corruption? At the very least, I would have to say, not yet, because we haven't seen the evidence.

So should Shatter and Callinan resign in disgrace now? No, not now, as we have nothing on them yet. In the future? Possibly, depending on what is found.

A woman in Limerick is dead because of Garda incompetence. GSOC recommended that disciplinary action be taken against two Gardai. Commissioner Callinan opted to drop all charges against the members. You do t see that alone as being sufficient reason for Callinan to resign ?

bobcoffee

Muhahahah you have just put down 2 very interesting comments there.
Don't have much to add except you should post more often

Sand

TheHappyChappy wrote: »

yep, worth the read to see extent of corruption

Very true - there's some amazing little facets of it that demonstrate Insider Ireland flexing its muscles.

April 19, 2013: Irish Independent published journalist Gemma O’Doherty’s story that Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan had penalty points quashed. More than a week previous, after she confirmed that the address she had was that of Martin Callinan – and essentially confirmed her story – she was given a dressing-down by her bosses at Independent News and Media, including Ian Mallon, Michael Denieffe and editor Stephen Rae – who told Ms O’Doherty that her behaviour was that of a ‘rogue reporter’. Some weeks later she lost her position as Travel Editor, which it’s reported Mr Rae ordered and then, another few weeks later, she’s informed by managing director Declan Carlisle that she is being made redundant. She is told that if she doesn’t take it voluntarily, she will receive notice of compulsory redundancy. She doesn’t accept it voluntarily and therefore immediately receives compulsory redundancy. Ms O’Doherty is now suing INM and Mr Rae.

Whose Stephen Rae? Why would he care so badly about the story when it was essentially confirmed as true?

Very odd. Incidentally, he is a trained barrister. Even more incidentally he used to edit the Garda Review. The force magazine since 1923 as it proudly exclaims.

It has also been reported (Sept 28th 2013) in the Irish Post ( a London based paper), that Stephen Rae picked up some penalty points which were quashed.

A vehicle registered to Rae, editor-in-chief of the Irish Independent and other INM titles, accrued penalty points at 6.37am on November 5, 2009 at the N11, Belfield, Dublin before the points were terminated.

The Irish Post contacted Mr Rae, who said: “I’m not commenting.”

The courts will figure it out hopefully. I'm really puzzled as to what it all could mean.

This story has the makings of an Irish watergate. It seems to extend into all areas of the Irish elite.

bajer101

Muahahaha wrote: »

A woman in Limerick is dead because of Garda incompetence. GSOC recommended that disciplinary action be taken against two Gardai. Commissioner Callinan opted to drop all charges against the members. You do t see that alone as being sufficient reason for Callinan to resign ?

This alone is worthy of a much more in depth discussion. I had heard that GSOC's report into this was ignored by AGS, but as it wasn't published, I couldn't find confirmation. It raises the question, What is the point in GSOC investigating an incident if it is not going to be acted on? There should be no discretion. This seems like another serious flaw in the GSOC legislation. They really are a toothless organisation.

fr3d12

Over 200 senior Gardai were involved in writing off points and fines with 14 of them writing off one million euro in fines with one of those 14 writing off 80,000euro, while I'm sure there are legitimate cases it seems that one man can write off approx 1,000 notices at 80 quid a pop and not have his actions questioned by the Commissioner!
Everybody is paying for the actions of these Gardai because we all know any excuse will do insurance companies so they can hike premiums not to mention the lost revenue to the exchequer.
The appointments of senior Gardai by the MoJ has to stop, this is a questionable practice and we should have a system in place like in NI where an independent board makes the decision.
I say all those senior Gardai should be audited and if they have nothing to worry about should not have a problem with this.
The old saying is true, "It's not what you know, it's who you know".

fr3d12

bajer101 wrote: »

This alone is worthy of a much more in depth discussion. I had heard that GSOC's report into this was ignored by AGS, but as it wasn't published, I couldn't find confirmation. It raises the question, What is the point in GSOC investigating an incident if it is not going to be acted on? There should be no discretion. This seems like another serious flaw in the GSOC legislation. They really are a toothless organisation.

GSOC were not given enough power, the legislation stopped short of givng them the powers to adequately investigate AGS, it's ridiculous that they have no access to the PULSE system so the majority of investigations will hit a brick wall, AGS have never co-operated with GSOC and have not been compelled to do so by MoJ despite the legislation or what we've been told.
It's all about the illusion of fair play but that's all it is.