Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

Bleating Lamb

Awful pity 'Scrap Saturday' is a thing of the past,they would make hay with this craic!

Happyman42

Boaty wrote: »

Wilson is a clown, he's some problem with someone down the line. All he's doing is looking for attention.

I knew Wilson as a guard, tough and by the book. but a fair man. Struck me as very conscientious and it made him unpopular in a small town.

fr3d12

Bertie must be delighted that the investigation into his alleged false expense claims isn't getting much attention due to this.
I didn't hear it mentioned on the news at all unless I missed it of course.

Busted Flat.

fr3d12 wrote: »

Bertie must be delighted that the investigation into his alleged false expense claims isn't getting much attention due to this.
I didn't hear it mentioned on the news at all unless I missed it of course.

Jaysus.:D

Boaty

My name is URL wrote: »

Good job he didn't get the promotion then :rolleyes:

Are you a member of AGS? Why do some of you guys go out of your way to vilify himself and McCabe? It shouldn't matter what their own personal reasons for speaking out are. What's more worrying are the reasons so many have for keeping schtum.

I never commented on McCabe.Wilson shouldn't have been let into AGS but he had a connection.He came out because he didnt get a promotion he felt there was an error in how a promotion was given.

Strongbow10

What I'm curious about is whether the issue of expunging penalty points itself get any attention? That's actually the real issue never mind all the guff about going the proper channels etc...

Has anyone in power actually actually addressed what the whistleblower has had to say in his accusations rather than trying to paint a poor picture of how he went about reporting it?

Genuine question

Happyman42

Boaty wrote: »

Wilson shouldn't have been let into AGS but he had a connection..

Why not?

john.han

Boaty wrote: »

I never commented on McCabe.Wilson shouldn't have been let into AGS but he had a connection.He came out because he didnt get a promotion he felt there was an error in how a promotion was given.

Pity we haven't had a whistleblower for the bias that has tainted recruitment to (and promotion within) the force since it's formation. Like many other public bodies it stinks to high heaven. Anyway, once again you're just flinging sh*t and hoping something sticks, Wilson's personal circumstance is of zero relevance, what matters is that his accusations were never dealt with, instead he was subjected to smears and bullying in a crude attempt to dispose of genuine and legitimate concerns that he and other officers had.

Busted Flat.

Boaty wrote: »

Wilson is a clown, he's some problem with someone down the line. All he's doing is looking for attention.

Hopefully the messenger will take issue with your post, and take the appropriate action.

Boaty

john.han wrote: »

Pity we haven't had a whistleblower for the bias that has tainted recruitment to (and promotion within) the force

One example, is not enough to come out with them accusations.

Happyman42

Boaty wrote: »

One example, is not enough to come out with them accusations.

How's about you backing up yours?

fr3d12

Incompetence it seems is the only requirement for promotion within AGS.

Halloween Jack

fr3d12 wrote: »

Incompetence it seems is the only requirement for promotion within AGS.

Harsh,

Candidates for promotion also require a demonstrable ability to look the other way, plus a background in covering up for colleagues and/or superiors. Contempt for the public is desirable though not essential as full training will be provided

K-9

Boaty wrote: »

He wouldn't have done anything, if he got his promotion.

Mod:

Cut this useless conjecture out, it's just throwing mud and hope it sticks.

fr3d12

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Harsh,

Candidates for promotion also require a demonstrable ability to look the other way, plus a background in covering up for colleagues and/or superiors. Contempt for the public is desirable though not essential as full training will be provided

I stand corrected:)

periodictable

I thought that this government was to be a reforming government?
It's as corrupt as FF ever was and could probably teach FF a trick or two.

Happyman42

@Boaty, back it up on thread.
Not interested in your PM's. A man's good name is at stake here.

K-9

fr3d12 wrote: »

Incompetence it seems is the only requirement for promotion within AGS.

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Harsh,

Candidates for promotion also require a demonstrable ability to look the other way, plus a background in covering up for colleagues and/or superiors. Contempt for the public is desirable though not essential as full training will be provided

Mod: Cut this out as well, this isn't an excuse for vague generalisations about AGS.

Busted Flat.

periodictable wrote: »

I thought that this government was to be a reforming government?
It's as corrupt as FF ever was and could probably teach FF a trick or two.

What, I won't embarrass you by asking your age, or your parents intellect.

Muahahaha

bajer101 wrote: »

This alone is worthy of a much more in depth discussion. I had heard that GSOC's report into this was ignored by AGS, but as it wasn't published, I couldn't find confirmation. It raises the question, What is the point in GSOC investigating an incident if it is not going to be acted on? There should be no discretion. This seems like another serious flaw in the GSOC legislation. They really are a toothless organisation.

There will definitely be more discussion about the woman in Limerick who was murdered because Gardai didn't inform the judge that the murderer was on bail for abducting a five year old child in Tipperary some days previous and also on bail for violently assaulting a female taxi driver in Cavan. The Gardai knew he was on bail yet they let him walk for attempting to abduct and kidnap the
5 year old child and when let out free he then went on to murder Sylvia Roche in Limerick.

Sylvia Roche has children who are now without a mother because her murderer was not remanded in custody, as would be the norm with someone who is out on bail and commits another offense. Now her husband has a pending High Court action suing the State for €4m compensation for her death and also because one of the children is autistic and requires full time care. The case was scheduled to begin today bit conveniently for FG and Labout the judge postponed it until May 26th, I never heard any reason why it was adjourned.

Either way this story about Garda incompetence and how Callinan tried to cover asses by refusing (despite GSOC's recommendation) to discipline the Gardai responsible for helping this murderer roam free to kill still has plenty of legs because it will be up in the High Court again where we are going to get the gruesome details of the Garda failure to prevent a murder aired in a public courtroom.

In my mind Callinan is a goner. Shatter needs a fall guy and tonight's newest revelations on Prime Time and tomorrow's papers from Maruice McCabe are a direct affront by a serving officer to Callinan's authority. We now have an all out public war between the Commisioner and the whistleblower who is basically calling Callinan a liar. This story has now entered yet another paradigm, one that is particularly rocky for the tenure of Callinan.

If Callinan punishes McCabe publically by demotion or otherwise then the public will be outraged as they stand in support of the whistleblower. If he doesn't punish him then Callinan looks weak to all the Assistant Commissioners directly below him, many of whom now are likely watching the Commisioner in trouble and are playing a political long game for his job and likely won't hesitate to leak a silver bullet to the media if they think they can snatch the top job. IMO Callinan is toast at this stage, he can go quietly or go kicking and screaming. Shatter won't hesitate to hang him out to dry if it means his own position remains secure. Callinan was a Fianna Fáil appointee which is where things get interesting if he decides to go kicking and screaming and seeks revenge on Shatter.

Boaty

I'm not even a member of AGS , but I feel the need to defend AGS against people like Wilson.
McCabe is a different story and time will tell what will happen there.

fr3d12

Boaty wrote: »

I'm not even a member of AGS , but I feel the need to defend AGS against people like Wilson.
McCabe is a different story and time will tell what will happen there.

Wilson is the only man in AGS who listened to McCabe's allegations, this proves he has a conscience.

Busted Flat.

Boaty wrote: »

I'm not even a member of AGS , but I feel the need to defend AGS against people like Wilson.
McCabe is a different story and time will tell what will happen there.

Hopefully the Mods will take you up on your posts, and ask you for a link, or for you to substantiate your claims. As they say in the US Put up or shut up. If you have a problem with the Messenger lets hear it.

K-9

Boaty wrote: »

I'm not even a member of AGS , but I feel the need to defend AGS against people like Wilson.
McCabe is a different story and time will tell what will happen there.

Mod:

Poster banned for bringing this up, yet again, even after a pm. This is not a thread for a witch hunt against Wilson or McCabe.

bajer101

K-9 wrote: »

Mod:

Poster banned for bringing this up, yet again, even after a pm. This is not a thread for a witch hunt against Wilson or McCabe.

Thanks for that. Spared me getting banned again.

Muahahaha

Boaty wrote: »

I'm not even a member of AGS , but I feel the need to defend AGS against people like Wilson.
McCabe is a different story and time will tell what will happen there.

'People like Wilson', what's that supposed to mean ?

This man, along with Maurice McCabe, revealed widespread corruption within the Gardai. They revealed how a woman in Limerick is dead because of incompetence. They revealed several cases of penalty points being quashed and the drivers subsequently going on to kill people on our roads. They revealed how Gardai didn't bother their arses to investigate violent assaults and rapes.

Tell me Boaty how would you feel if your wife or mother was raped by a violent criminal and the Gardai appoint ted to investigate didn't bother their arses ? How would you feel if your son was killed by a driver who should have had his license taken off him, but didn't because a he knew a Superintendent who quashed the drivers points ? How would you feel if your wife was killed by a man who was on bail for attacking a female taxi driver and abducting a 5 year old child ? How would you feel Boaty, tell us that instead of trying your best to discredit the whistleblowers we have to thank for bringing this to the public attention.

If you can't tell us how you would feel if any member of your family got raped, murdered or maimed due to Garda incompetence then you are nothing more than a shill on this thread. People are dead here and all you can do is attack the character of the whistleblowers, without whom this whole debacle would be covered up by AGS,MoJ and FG/Labour.

There is a lot of allegations being made by two men.
Now there may be truth in some of these allegations, some may just be wild accusations.
Incompetence doesn't automatically mean malpractice.

I believe what needs to happen now is that the government set up a totally independent office, such as an inspectorate, who will take complaints from members of AGS and investigate them fully.

The public don't need to be told about wild accusations unless they are true, that there IS evidence to back such accusations up.
Also genuine people trying to report illegal activity and malpractices need to have protection.
Also members that are the victims of vexatious complaints need protection also.

I believe this needs to be independent of the Garda Siochana and also the Garda Ombudsman Commission.

If the government actually set this up, then maybe the public and members of AGS could have trust in this office

john.han

bubblypop wrote: »

There is a lot of allegations being made by two men.
Now there may be truth in some of these allegations, some may just be wild accusations.
Incompetence doesn't automatically mean malpractice.

I believe what needs to happen now is that the government set up a totally independent office, such as an inspectorate, who will take complaints from members of AGS and investigate them fully.

The public don't need to be told about wild accusations unless they are true, that there IS evidence to back such accusations up.
Also genuine people trying to report illegal activity and malpractices need to have protection.
Also members that are the victims of vexatious complaints need protection also.

I believe this needs to be independent of the Garda Siochana and also the Garda Ombudsman Commission.

If the government actually set this up, then maybe the public and members of AGS could have trust in this office

A lot of what you say is true, I agree that incompetence does not equal malpractice, however where that incompetence is ignored and nothing is done to correct it or discipline those responsible it becomes malpractice (in instances where it results in a death there is also the very grave issue that the incompetence may be of such a serious nature that it might in itself constitute a crime).

I also agree that "wild accusations", as you put it, should not be public but the fact remains that these whistleblowers tried to bring their concerns to the supposed correct channels but were pretty much ignored. Look at the directive as described by McCabe; clearly Callinan was only concerned with information getting outside the force, there was zero concern about the substance of the complaints. It is the ineffectiveness of the established procedures that forced people to try other means (such as going to TDs). It's also important to note it's not just two men, a number of others have since contacted members of the Oireachtas and I'm sure we'll hear more about what they have to say over the coming days.

john.han

john.han wrote: »

A lot of what you say is true, I agree that incompetence does not equal malpractice, however where that incompetence is ignored and nothing is done to correct it or discipline those responsible it becomes malpractice (in instances where it results in a death there is also the very grave issue that the incompetence may be of such a serious nature that it might in itself constitute a crime).

I also agree that "wild accusations", as you put it, should not be public but the fact remains that these whistleblowers tried to bring their concerns to the supposed correct channels but were pretty much ignored. Look at the directive as described by McCabe; clearly Callinan was only concerned with information getting outside the force, there was zero concern about the substance of the complaints. It is the ineffectiveness of the established procedures that forced people to try other means (such as going to TDs). It's also important to note it's not just two men, a number of others have since contacted members of the Oireachtas and I'm sure we'll hear more about what they have to say over the coming days.

Which is why the government should set up an independent office in order to investigate these types of allegations.
I do believe that the commissioner had a problem with these members accessing information by the pulse system and passing this onto a 3rd party. Obviously this is something that is taken very seriously as peoples private info should never be given out into the public domain. Its clearly a breach of data protection and maybe even the official secrets act?

An independent office should have the authorisation to view these records also.
Clearly people do not want AGS investigating themselves. An independent office would take away this issue and perhaps go someway to alleviating the publics worry about a corrupt force.

fr3d12

bubblypop wrote: »

There is a lot of allegations being made by two men.
Now there may be truth in some of these allegations, some may just be wild accusations.
Incompetence doesn't automatically mean malpractice.

I believe what needs to happen now is that the government set up a totally independent office, such as an inspectorate, who will take complaints from members of AGS and investigate them fully.

The public don't need to be told about wild accusations unless they are true, that there IS evidence to back such accusations up.
Also genuine people trying to report illegal activity and malpractices need to have protection.
Also members that are the victims of vexatious complaints need protection also.

I believe this needs to be independent of the Garda Siochana and also the Garda Ombudsman Commission.

If the government actually set this up, then maybe the public and members of AGS could have trust in this office

We have an independent office in the form of GSOC, it doesn't matter how many offices are set up if the culture of AGS or any body for that matter refuse to be policed or held to account by anyone, GSOC is limited by legislation in what it can do so they are somewhat ineffective carrying out the tasks they have been entrusted to do.
The attitude has to change and that change has to come from the top and trickle all the down.
I agree with you, incompetence is not malpractise but the difference between an incompetent barman for example and that of a member of AGS are worlds apart.
We as a people need to know that if we are at some time in our lives the victim of a crime that those tasked with finding the culprits will do so to the best of their ability and if for some reason mistakes are made that there is accountability.