Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

cunnifferous

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm not a big fan of Worzel Wallace myself, but I'd make a distinction between what he is guilty of in a private capacity (which is all out in the open anyway), and any minister or public servant using their bestowed position to either help to cover up ineptitude or wrongdoing; or allowing it to happen under their stewardship in the first place.

You are correct, but sometimes you worry that past behavior might be a good indicator of future behavior. Especially relatively recent past behavior.

My name is URL

tayto lover wrote: »

I put them all in the same boat myself.

Why? You're an intelligent guy.. I'm genuinely interested in the reason why you don't see political or organisational corruption as a more serious matter than personal malpractice =/

They're not in the same boat whatsoever. One is a clear tax cheat and has been held accountable, the other is using state agencies and the party politic to protect their own skins, and to allow for abuses to continue.

I hate to draw parrelels with such a serious part of this nations history, but who would you say is more culpable for the sustained and prolonged abuses of the church here.. the individuals or the various public and private bodies that did their best to hide, normalise and even justify it?

K-9

tayto lover wrote: »

??
You never came back to apologise on the VB thread I notice.

Can we keep other threads/forums out of it please. Thank you.

fr3d12

Shady Tady wrote: »

I don't know many people from Wexford and those I know are 100% but I lost faith in wexfords people's intelligence after they elected that man.

By that logic you would have to question the intelliegence of those who voted for Lowry, Burke, Bertie, Callely, O'Donoghue, Shatter ,Martin, Adams etc etc.

K-9

cunnifferous wrote: »

You are correct, but sometimes you worry that past behavior might be a good indicator of future behavior. Especially relatively recent past behavior.

Yep. I do think Wallace seems to attract a lot of personal criticism though and tbh, a lot of it was before the VAT judgment was known, some people seem to just personally dislike him because he doesn't wear a tie and silly nonsense like that, and this stuff was just something else to throw at him.

tayto lover

My name is URL wrote: »

Why? You're an intelligent guy.. I'm genuinely interested in the reason why you don't see political or organisational corruption as a more serious matter than personal malpractice =/

They're not in the same boat whatsoever. One is a clear tax cheat and has been held accountable, the other is using state agencies and the party politic to protect their own skins, and to allow for abuses to continue.

I hate to draw parrelels with such a serious part of this nations history, but who would you say is more culpable for the sustained and prolonged abuses of the church here.. the individuals or the various public and private bodies that did their best to hide, normalise and even justify it?

I know what you mean but one hypocrite calling someone else a hypocrite galls me.
I want Shatter and Co out but I also want Wallace out too.
I don't adhere to the line "he's a bigger criminal than me".
Please don't get me started on the Church.

My name is URL

tayto lover wrote: »

I know what you mean but one hypocrite calling someone else a hypocrite galls me.
I want Shatter and Co out but I also want Wallace out too.
I don't adhere to the line "he's a bigger criminal than me".
Please don't get me started on the Church.

Are we not all hypocrites to some extent? I definitely am! I've taken exception to stuff that some individuals have said or done.. which if someone else had said it I'd keep my mouth shut and not question it.

It's a human affliction.. cognitive dissonance vocalised!

What others have said in the past, in a totally unrelated context shouldn't be utilised to downplay or exaggerate topical criticisms.

cunnifferous

K-9 wrote: »

Yep. I do think Wallace seems to attract a lot of personal criticism though and tbh, a lot of it was before the VAT judgment was known, some people seem to just personally dislike him because he doesn't wear a tie and silly nonsense like that, and this stuff was just something else to throw at him.

I dunno I think revels a bit in the criticism he receives about his attire; plays up to the ordinary man image. I don't care if he wares a clown costume tbh, I just think it wasn't so long ago he was guilty of quite serious fraud, and more power tends to make people more corrupt not less.

JRant

I wouldn't put it past them to appoint Callinan to the new Garda Authority.

Sure he's a private citizen now (making him independent!!) and his experience in the force makes him an ideal candidate.

sopretty

JRant wrote: »

I wouldn't put it past them to appoint Callinan to the new Garda Authority.

Sure he's a private citizen now (making him independent!!) and his experience in the force makes him an ideal candidate.

Oh Sweet Divine mother - don't tempt fate!!!

bajer101

Whoa! This thread is being seriously derailed by people throwing muck at Mick Wallace and trying to compare his tax issues with what's going on here. I'm probably about to contribute to that, but I feel compelled to make this point. Wallace did what he did to keep a company going and to keep people in employment - it wasn't for explicit personal gain. I have a pain in my hole reading posts from people who keep bringing it this up and trying to make out that he was some sort tax defrauder who was defrauding the exchequer and squirreling money away for himself. He wasn't. He has a company that was in trouble and he offset VAT payments so that he could keep the company going. Yes it was wrong, but his motivation wasn't for personal gain. Some of the people accusing him have no problem defending parties whose members pocketed donations for themselves, or who got work done on their homes for free or who just took bribes. So fcuk off with the mock indignation about Wallace.

I was never a big fan of his and his tax issues didn't enamour him to me. But in the last couple of years he has come across as a public servant who has seemed keen to highlight issues that the public really should be concerned about. I'd trust him, Daly and Flanagan with public issues more that I would trust any of the established parties.

JRant

sopretty wrote: »

Oh Sweet Divine mother - don't tempt fate!!!

Just imagine the press release!!

"Minister Shatter has described the appointment of Mr Callinan as a real "coup" for the new Garda Authority"

Busted Flat.

JRant wrote: »

I wouldn't put it past them to appoint Callinan to the new Garda Authority.

Sure he's a private citizen now (making him independent!!) and his experience in the force makes him an ideal candidate.

Anyone remember Dick Emery show, he posed as a superintendent in the guards in one show I remember he drove a mini car, my memory fails me, but I think he was called Superintendent Flynn O something. Any help out there.

fr3d12

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Anyone remember Dick Emery show, he posed as a superintendent in the guards in one show I remember he drove a mini car, my memory fails me, but I think he was called Superintendent Flynn O something. Any help out there.

Flynn O'Thick or something like that

Slick50

JRant wrote: »

I wouldn't put it past them to appoint Callinan to the new Garda Authority.

Sure he's a private citizen now (making him independent!!) and his experience in the force makes him an ideal candidate.

And he'd know where to find all the skeletons, excellent.

bajer101 wrote: »

Wallace did what he did to keep a company going and to keep people in employment - it wasn't for explicit personal gain. I have a pain in my hole reading posts from people who keep bringing it this up and trying to make out that he was some sort tax defrauder who was defrauding the exchequer and squirreling money away for himself.

This guy left a lot of small businesses high and dry, and doubled his, and his son's salary the year before it went tits up. Sorry for the aside, but he's a c*nt. It will be interesting to see if he gets re-elected, with this out in the open.

Busted Flat.

Slick50 wrote: »

And he'd know where to find all the skeletons, excellent.

This guy left a lot of small businesses high and dry, and doubled his, and his son's salary the year before it went tits up. Sorry for the aside, but he's a c*nt. It will be interesting to see if he gets re-elected, with this out in the open.

Do you have a link for this comment.

WhatNowForUs?

tayto lover wrote: »

Try one who is not self-serving then.

Who in life is not self-serving, it could well be impossible. Anyway I'll give it a try Joan Collins - she seems to be as 'not self serving' as one could be.

Sorry for the time delay BTW.

Busted Flat.

Just a quick question, anyone remember the Commissioner who bought the gangster's house in north Dublin. When asked about who the previous owner was, he replied he did not know. CAB had an interest in the previous owners property.

fr3d12

fr3d12 wrote: »

Just because you claim not to be informed about the recordings doesn't make them any less significant, you can be sure a lot were informed.
I hope you're not going to try and play down the significance of this issue as well.

Most definitely not!
I'm not impressed at all.

Gergiev

JRant wrote: »

I wouldn't put it past them to appoint Callinan to the new Garda Authority.

Sure he's a private citizen now (making him independent!!) and his experience in the force makes him an ideal candidate.

Careful what you wish for, JR!

Let's not forget the establishment's attempts to impose 'retired' judge Hugh O'Flaherty on a top European job after the dust of his resignation over the Sheedy Affair' had settled.

And let's not even mention Kevin Cardiff, one of the architects of our economic demise..

constance tench

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Just a quick question, anyone remember the Commissioner who bought the gangster's house in north Dublin. When asked about who the previous owner was, he replied he did not know. CAB had an interest in the previous owners property.

Pat*cough* Byrne...

Gergiev

Surprised no one has referenced the 'Harry Whelehan Affair' as a key to understanding the modus operandi of the main players in this current sordid business.

Back then, a Labour party that had also scored big-time in the previous election was outraged that the plum job of President of the High Court was awarded without their being consulted by the larger government party. Their ever-prickly leader Dick Spring went into a tailspin and mutterings about resignations, the stability of the government and a possible election developed over a number of days. And then...a case mysteriously turned up overnight about a warrant concerning the extradition of a paedophile priest, followed by another one that had been unacted upon for months. Which resulted in Whelehan being given the kind of choice that Callinan was given on Monday night to allow the politicos the chance to survive the day and escape the debacle...

So...after Leo puts the cat firmly back among the pigeons on Friday and Labour panics at the prospect of being to the right of some liberal FGers on a natural justice issue, they can't wait to get on the bandwagon over the weekend in getting into print to express the same sentiments, thus painting Shatter and the entire government's survival into a corner. And then...a case that has mysteriously languished in the AG's office for 4 months unacted upon demands the immediate attention of the Taoiseach and a device to dispatch Callinan and save all skins is at magically at hand. And we know (kind of) what happened next...

Ironically, this is the one issue that the former commissioner arguably handled properly; discontinuing the recording practice, informing the attorney general at that time and later writing to the Dept of Justice...

He should, of course, been on his way ages ago concerning the Mick Wallace affair, treatment of Clare Daly, handling of the Whistleblowers, etc. Shatter should also have been gone straight away, after disclosing Mick Wallace's business on 'live' TV. Likewise, James Reilly after appearing in Stubb's Gazette. These are the standards that the public are entitled to from holders of the any of the 15 great offices of state in an efficacious republic.

Instead we are reduced to watching in like spectators instead of citizens while people that we elect to do their job refuse to do their duty for totally self-serving reasons. Labour are hyper-sensitive to be seen to 'look for a head' after their histrionics back in the 90s and the gerontocracy of the party that holds all their ministerial portfolios are spooked by the prospect of being tarred with that same brush. This current bunch are on a 'lap of honour' that will end in 2016 when they ride super-annuated into the sunset, and it will take a veritable earthquake of a scandal for them to do anything to rock the boat before them. Put them on the opposition benches right now and they'd be spitting fire; likewise if the younger breed of the party were in office.

FG have shown themselves to be the same old tax-and-spend conservative party that they always have been, terrified of changing anything until it breaks and scared stiff they might have to produce any new ideas. Thus we are now to get a 'Garda Authority' that was spurned by all parties in the 90s and, lo and behold, an instant 'Commission of Enquiry' into these current revelations despite the resistance of any kind of serious enquiry into several matters, chiefly the banking crisis that has cost us almost E70b so far, and counting. The sad thing is that Enda Kenny didn't show leadership and deal with Shatter's pirouetting months ago. We've ended up paying a heavy price for Shatter's backing of Kenny in that heave of a few years back...

Oh, and before I forget, I'd also like to add my voice to those criticising Paul Reynolds of RTE who has really shamed himself this week in his role as a conduit for the Gardai...

Shady Tady

fr3d12 wrote: »

By that logic you would have to question the intelliegence of those who voted for Lowry, Burke, Bertie, Callely, O'Donoghue, Shatter ,Martin, Adams etc etc.

Yes I do

raymon

It has been 5 days now and still no word from Dermot Ahern on whether he was complicit in the 2008 upgrading of the illegal Garda bugging system to a new state of the art digital bugging system.

He and Fianna Fail should clear this one up immediately .

bajer101

Gergiev wrote: »

Surprised no one has referenced the 'Harry Whelehan Affair' as a key to understanding the modus operandi of the main players in this current sordid business.

Back then, a Labour party that had also scored big-time in the previous election was outraged that the plum job of President of the High Court was awarded without their being consulted by the larger government party. Their ever-prickly leader Dick Spring went into a tailspin and mutterings about resignations, the stability of the government and a possible election developed over a number of days. And then...a case mysteriously turned up overnight about a warrant concerning the extradition of a paedophile priest, followed by another one that had been unacted upon for months. Which resulted in Whelehan being given the kind of choice that Callinan was given on Monday night to allow the politicos the chance to survive the day and escape the debacle...

So...after Leo puts the cat firmly back among the pigeons on Friday and Labour panics at the prospect of being to the right of some liberal FGers on a natural justice issue, they can't wait to get on the bandwagon over the weekend in getting into print to express the same sentiments, thus painting Shatter and the entire government's survival into a corner. And then...a case that has mysteriously languished in the AG's office for 4 months unacted upon demands the immediate attention of the Taoiseach and a device to dispatch Callinan and save all skins is at magically at hand. And we know (kind of) what happened next...

Ironically, this is the one issue that the former commissioner arguably handled properly; discontinuing the recording practice, informing the attorney general at that time and later writing to the Dept of Justice...

He should, of course, been on his way ages ago concerning the Mick Wallace affair, treatment of Clare Daly, handling of the Whistleblowers, etc. Shatter should also have been gone straight away, after disclosing Mick Wallace's business on 'live' TV. Likewise, James Reilly after appearing in Stubb's Gazette. These are the standards that the public are entitled to from holders of the any of the 15 great offices of state in an efficacious republic.

Instead we are reduced to watching in like spectators instead of citizens while people that we elect to do their job refuse to do their duty for totally self-serving reasons. Labour are hyper-sensitive to be seen to 'look for a head' after their histrionics back in the 90s and the gerontocracy of the party that holds all their ministerial portfolios are spooked by the prospect of being tarred with that same brush. This current bunch are on a 'lap of honour' that will end in 2016 when they ride super-annuated into the sunset, and it will take a veritable earthquake of a scandal for them to do anything to rock the boat before them. Put them on the opposition benches right now and they'd be spitting fire; likewise if the younger breed of the party were in office.

FG have shown themselves to be the same old tax-and-spend conservative party that they always have been, terrified of changing anything until it breaks and scared stiff they might have to produce any new ideas. Thus we are now to get a 'Garda Authority' that was spurned by all parties in the 90s and, lo and behold, an instant 'Commission of Enquiry' into these current revelations despite the resistance of any kind of serious enquiry into several matters, chiefly the banking crisis that has cost us almost E70b so far, and counting. The sad thing is that Enda Kenny didn't show leadership and deal with Shatter's pirouetting months ago. We've ended up paying a heavy price for Shatter's backing of Kenny in that heave of a few years back...

Oh, and before I forget, I'd also like to add my voice to those criticising Paul Reynolds of RTE who has really shamed himself this week in his role as a conduit for the Gardai...

Excellent post and arguably the best piece of writing that I have read on the issue - and that includes articles in the media.

Sierra Oscar

Irish Independent - New row for Shatter as judge embroiled in penalty points scandal

Justice Minister Alan Shatter and the Garda Siochana Ombudsman Commission (GSOC) are examining accusations a judge put pressure on a garda whistleblower to withdraw allegations against a senior member of the force.

The sensational claims were made in sworn statements by former garda John Wilson to the gardai and GSOC, which have been seen by the Irish Independent.

Is there anyone out there who still thinks Shatter should stay on? His department is in complete disarray and his handling of six ongoing crises has been questionable to say the least.

The department badly needs fresh leadership, and a immediate reshuffle should be held to split the Department of Justice and Department of Defence portfolio currently under the one Minister. Enda made a big mistake merging those two together after the last election, and the pigeons are coming home to roost now.

raymon

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Irish Independent - New row for Shatter as judge embroiled in penalty points scandal



Is there anyone out there who still thinks Shatter should stay on? His department is in complete disarray and his handling of six ongoing crises has been questionable to say the least.

The department badly needs fresh leadership, and a immediate reshuffle should be held to split the Department of Justice and Department of Defence portfolio currently under the one Minister. Enda made a big mistake merging those two together after the last election, and the pigeons are coming home to roost now.

Im no fan of Shatter , but shouldnt Fianna Fail answer whether Dermot Ahern sanctioned the bugging of Garda stations before resuming the Shatter witch hunt.

Its a simple question.

Sierra Oscar

raymon wrote: »

Im no fan of Shatter , but shouldnt Fianna Fail answer whether Dermot Ahern sanctioned the bugging of Garda stations before resuming the Shatter witch hunt.

Its a simple question.

Stop trying to divert attention, everyone can see through your carry on. You still support Shatter then?

"Im no fan of Shatter" - should he resign, or should Enda sack him?

Its a simple question.

raymon

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Stop trying to divert attention, everyone can see through your carry on. You still support Shatter then?

"Im no fan of Shatter" - should he resign, or should Enda sack him?

Its a simple question.

I dont support Shatter or Fine Gael and couldnt care less if he jumped in a lake.

Have you guys called Dermot Ahern yet? Come on it is getting ridiculous. Did he sanction the purchase of the 2008 digital bugging equipment or not?

sopretty

raymon wrote: »

I dont support Shatter or Fine Gael and couldnt care less if he jumped in a lake.

Have you guys called Dermot Ahern yet? Come on it is getting ridiculous. Did he sanction the purchase of the 2008 digital bugging equipment or not?

Well somebody has to sign off on expenditure. Follow the paper trail to the final signature. That said, would a minister have suspected this was bugging material, rather than standard recording equipment required by AGS? I'd like to know who prepared the scope of the tender!