Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

Sierra Oscar

raymon wrote: »

I dont support Shatter or Fine Gael and couldnt care less if he jumped in a lake.

Have you guys called Dermot Ahern yet? Come on it is getting ridiculous. Did he sanction the purchase of the 2008 digital bugging equipment or not?

Sure aren't I the same as you, I want an answer too. I am sure the Commission of Inquiry will deal with all of that.

I would also like to know if Nora Owen, former FG Minister for Justice, sanctioned the purchase of bugging equipment in 1996 as was revealed by the Garda Superintendent who has responsibility for the telecommunications network during the IRA trial yesterday.

IRA trial to go ahead after court hears evidence of garda recording system

The witness told Ms Kennedy that from his initial investigations he learnt recording equipment installed in 1996 was in place until 2008 when it became obsolete and was removed.

Installed in 1996, removed in 2008. Curious.

The Commission of Inquiry will investigate this I would imagine. I suspect however that Ministers were being led to believe that they were signing off on equipment (if it was passed by them at all) required to monitor the 999 communications network.

brooke 2

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Just a quick question, anyone remember the Commissioner who bought the gangster's house in north Dublin. When asked about who the previous owner was, he replied he did not know. CAB had an interest in the previous owners property.

His first name was Pat!

two wheels good

Gergiev wrote: »

..[edit]
And then...a case that has mysteriously languished in the AG's office for 4 months unacted upon demands the immediate attention of the Taoiseach and a device to dispatch Callinan and save all skins is at magically at hand. And we know (kind of) what happened next...

Ironically, this is the one issue that the former commissioner arguably handled properly; discontinuing the recording practice, informing the attorney general at that time and later writing to the Dept of Justice...

....[edit]
Oh, and before I forget, I'd also like to add my voice to those criticising Paul Reynolds of RTE who has really shamed himself this week in his role as a conduit for the Gardai...

I too am suspicious of the handling of the discovery of the phone recordings and the handling of letters between the govt offices. But I don't see Kenny needed another reason to give Callanan the push. He already had cause with the "Disgusting" remarks controversy dragging on.

What this also seems to reveal is how poor working Shatter's working relationships are. AG contacts Taoiseach not Shatter; Kenny sends civil servant not Shatter. I imagine his colleagues prefer to avoid him if possible.

Paul Reynolds? Was he the reporter eulogising Callanan on RTE R1 Drivetime yesterday afternoon - quoting a "Garda source". I imagined him in Callanan's front room quietly and deferentially listening to Callanan holding forth.

PS Interesting post. Thanks

raymon

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Sure aren't I the same as you, I want an answer too. I am sure the Commission of Inquiry will deal with all of that.

I would also like to know if Nora Owen, former FG Minister for Justice, sanctioned the purchase of bugging equipment in 1996 as was revealed by the Garda Superintendent who has responsibility for the telecommunications network during the IRA trial yesterday.

IRA trial to go ahead after court hears evidence of garda recording system



Installed in 1996, removed in 2008. Curious.

The Commission of Inquiry will investigate this I would imagine. I suspect however that Ministers were being led to believe that they were signing off on equipment (if it was passed by them at all) required to monitor the 999 communications network.

Nora Owen, Michael Mc Dowell , Noonan, etc have come out and said they didnt know. Dermot Ahern and Fianna Fail should release a statement on this immediately.

sparkling sea

Tender processes in Ireland are meticulous, many people argue with good reason this is because a certain company has ususally been preselected to win the tender, and so the tender must meet the specific criteria that the pre selected company can match.

So it is said (by people who have gone through the process) companies who have sole dealerships for specific equipment will met the criteria of tenders, because the tender process will specify equipment that only they can supply.

The new digital equipment would have had to have specified the recording equipment, however even if a senior person signed off on the purchase, it doesn't necessarily follow that they knew what the recording equipment would be used for. However the person/persons who wrote the tender criteria would most definitely have known - so that beggars the question; Who is actually running this country??? Is it the puppets or/ and the puppet masters that need to be held to account. Can things ever change when senior civil servants and money men control the running of this country??

raymon

sparkling sea wrote: »

Tender processes in Ireland are meticulous, many people argue with good reason this is because a certain company has ususally been preselected to win the tender and so the tender must meet the specific criteria that the pre selected company can match.

So it is said(by people who have gone through the process) companies who have sole dealerships for specific equipment will met the criteria of tenders, because the tender process will specify equipment that only they can supply.

The new digital equipment would have had to have specified the recording equipment however even if a senior person signed off on the purchase, it doesn't necessarily follow that they new what the recording equipment would be used for. However the person/persons who wrote the tender criteria would most definitely have known - so that beggars the question; Who is actually running this country??? Is it the puppets or/ and the puppet masters that need to be held to account. Can things ever change when senior civil servants and money men control the running of this country??

While this is plausible, it seems strange that Dermot Ahern ( who appointed Callinan) or Fianna Fail would not issue a statement to say he knew nothing about the digital equipment purchased in 2008 for bugging

Very bizarre indeed.

two wheels good

sparkling sea wrote: »

..[edit]
The new digital equipment would have had to have specified the recording equipment however even if a senior person signed off on the purchase, it doesn't necessarily follow that they new what the recording equipment would be used for. However the person/persons who wrote the tender criteria would most definitely have known - so that beggars the question; Who is actually running this country??? Is it the puppets or/ and the puppet masters that need to be held to account. Can things ever change when senior civil servants and money men control the running of this country??

Yesterday Fergal Keane on RTE R1 Drivetime quoted the advert inviting tender applications from 2008 - 2 Terabytes of storage at regional headquarters, 12 phone lines at each site, play-back on demand, dedicated technician to manage teh system etc.
It was out in the open. Just waiting for a journo/opp politician/regulator to question it. But as yet no one claims to have known anything about it. Astonishing!

sparkling sea

raymon wrote: »

While this is plausible, it seems strange that Dermot Ahern ( who appointed Callinan) or Fianna Fail would not issue a statement to say he knew nothing about the digital equipment purchased in 2008 for bugging

Very bizarre indeed.

Oh I don't know, I thing he is being very clever by not saying a word, the masses won't remember to link him to this at all if he says nothing.

sparkling sea

The other thing I find very strange about this recording issue is, the Civil and Public service union leaders have not come out to blast anybody. Members of their unions may have had their conversions with union reps recorded, any personal information delivered to them by phone may have been recorded.

Mostly though its illegal and infinges on civil and public servants rights but very little has been said by the union bosses - why ?

To me the unions not kicking up much of a fuss is mind boggling - I smell a rat here!!!!! Did they know this was happening ??? Why are they being so quiet, its very very strange.

sparkling sea

sparkling sea wrote: »

The other thing I find very strange about this recording issue is, the Civil and Public service union leaders have not come out to blast anybody. Members of their unions may have had their conversions with union reps recorded, any personal information delivered to them by phone may have been recorded.

Mostly though its illegal and infinges on civil and public servants rights but very little has been said by the union bosses - why ?

To me the unions not kicking up much of a fuss is mind boggling - I smell a rat here!!!!! Did they know this was happening ??? Why are they being so quiet, its very very strange.

Gardai are not allowed to join unions, hence they only have representative bodies. I believe AGSI have come out against it & stated their members were not aware of the recordings.

Busted Flat.

bubblypop wrote: »

sparkling sea wrote: »

The other thing I find very strange about this recording issue is, the Civil and Public service union leaders have not come out to blast anybody. Members of their unions may have had their conversions with union reps recorded, any personal information delivered to them by phone may have been recorded.

Mostly though its illegal and infinges on civil and public servants rights but very little has been said by the union bosses - why ?

To me the unions not kicking up much of a fuss is mind boggling - I smell a rat here!!!!! Did they know this was happening ??? Why are they being so quiet, its very very strange.

Gardai are not allowed to join unions, hence they only have representative bodies. I believe AGSI have come out against it & stated their members were not aware of the recordings.

You must not have heard the rte news at one.

aloyisious

Harping back to the home visit to Comm Callinan by the Sec-Gen of D of J at the request of Enda, following on from Enda's statement to the media today (re the circumstances of the visit and subsequent leave-taking by the Comm) in Castlebar that he only had the power to sack Ministers, there's the direct implication that that may have been the message carried. Enda included in that statement that the Comm made up his own mind to resign.

There's also the fact that Enda made mention of a cabinet meeting on Monday night. It now seem's that that meeting was between him, Alan so was NOT a Cabinet meeting, just a meeting between two members of the cabinet, and any decision taken there about the "bombshell" and the Comm was NOT a cabinet decision. Presumably the Sec-Gen of D of J was somewhere close by for him to be given the message from Enda to the Comm.

There's the newly revealed allegation that the Comm was advised by a senior D of J official that he should not retract the "disgusting" remark. I'm left wondering who that advisor is. The Sec-Gen of D of J is mentioned in the home-visit reports as being a friend of the Callinan family.

Muahahaha

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Just a quick question, anyone remember the Commissioner who bought the gangster's house in north Dublin. When asked about who the previous owner was, he replied he did not know. CAB had an interest in the previous owners property.

Yeah I remember that well as Phoenix magazine covered it a lot at the time. The Commissioner was Pat Byrne. You couldn't make it up- the Garda Commissioner buying a house off a high profile criminal. It smacked of a pay off, a good journo should be able to find out if he paid full price for it bit at the time the mainstream media completely ignored the story, just like some of them wish they could ignore reporting on the latest scandals about the Gardai

Happyman42

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yeah I remember that well as Phoenix magazine covered it a lot at the time. The Commissioner was Pat Byrne. You couldn't make it up- the Garda Commissioner buying a house off a high profile criminal. It smacked of a pay off, a good journo should be able to find out if he paid full price for it bit at the time the mainstream media completely ignored the story, just like some of them wish they could ignore reporting on the latest scandals about the Gardai

We'll get Paul Williams and Paul Reynolds onto it right away.
Signed
Ed.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote:

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Gardai are not allowed to join unions, hence they only have representative bodies. I believe AGSI have come out against it & stated their members were not aware of the recordings.

You must not have heard the rte news at one.

No, I didn't actually, what happened?

renegademaster

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Gardai are not allowed to join unions, hence they only have representative bodies. I believe AGSI have come out against it & stated their members were not aware of the recordings.

You must not have heard the rte news at one.

what happened?

constance tench

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yeah I remember that well as Phoenix magazine covered it a lot at the time. The Commissioner was Pat Byrne. You couldn't make it up- the Garda Commissioner buying a house off a high profile criminal. It smacked of a pay off, a good journo should be able to find out if he paid full price for it bit at the time the mainstream media completely ignored the story, just like some of them wish they could ignore reporting on the latest scandals about the Gardai

...around the 90k mark it was...as far as I recall relatives of the commissioner lived next door to the man and his family for many years, and even socialised with them.

aloyisious

Re sacking Alan, one question should be asked first (and it's probable that Enda has already given it some thought) who would actually have the courage to step forward and take up the job (given that the storm is ongoing) - when there's a chance that: A.. a political career would be destroyed.. and B.. one's name, voice or signature might be discovered on dusty documents or records "found" hidden away. One thing that might make the job seem a nice venture would be the removal of the bar on use of Defence jets without Enda's permission, so if the **** hit the fan, there'd be a quick way out.

brooke 2

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yeah I remember that well as Phoenix magazine covered it a lot at the time. The Commissioner was Pat Byrne. You couldn't make it up- the Garda Commissioner buying a house off a high profile criminal. It smacked of a pay off, a good journo should be able to find out if he paid full price for it bit at the time the mainstream media completely ignored the story, just like some of them wish they could ignore reporting on the latest scandals about the Gardai

That is a huge story!

Too bad the Daily Mail or The Sunday Times (Irish versions) were not published at
the time!!

constance tench

G'wan Mick! http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/callinan-should-come-out-and-give-a-no-holds-barred-account-of-what-happened-263522.html

RTÉ’s crime correspondent Paul Reynolds has some excellent contacts in An Garda Síochána. Yesterday, he had a scoop broadcast on the News At One.

He had persuaded ‘sources close to Martin Callinan’ to tell all about how the former commissioner feels about the various controversies, and the manner of his leaving.

For those who don’t live in a media bubble, ‘sources close to’ is often a euphemism for an ‘off the record’ briefing from he to whom the sources are close. It would be reasonable to assume that Reynolds’ ‘sources’ were so good that they may well have looked back from the mirror when Mr Callinan shaves of a morning.

raymon

I see Fianna Fail have tabled a motion of no confidence in shatter again.

Should they checked first if Martin Callinans buddy Dermot Ahern had sanctioned the bugging of Garda offices in 2008 first?

Now we have to endure Fianna Fails fake outrage for another week .

constance tench

brooke 2 wrote: »

That is a huge story!

Too bad the Daily Mail or The Sunday Times (Irish versions) were not published at
the time!!

Sunday Times was around...

It was quite a big story at the time but didn't gain traction[I wonder why...not]...just the usual move along now nothing to see here and don't trip over that apple cart on the way...mind your step now.

fr3d12

raymon wrote: »

I see Fianna Fail have tabled a motion of no confidence in shatter again.

Should they checked first if Martin Callinans buddy Dermot Ahern had sanctioned the bugging of Garda offices in 2008 first?

Now we have to endure Fianna Fails fake outrage for another week .

No former MoJ will willingly make statements, you can be sure they have legal advice got not to open their mouths until compelled to do so.

ChicagoJoe

The whole crisis of GSOC, tapes and so on reminds me of Watergate in America when Nixon said on TV " There can be no whitewash at the Whitehouse " - and look how that turned out !!!!

Godge

raymon wrote: »

Nora Owen, Michael Mc Dowell , Noonan, etc have come out and said they didnt know. Dermot Ahern and Fianna Fail should release a statement on this immediately.

It is not just Dermot Ahern.

The law changed in 1993 because of previous bugging incidents, particularly of journalists' phones including Vincent Browne. The Justice Minister at the time was Maire Geoghegan-Quinn (she of the many pensions) who should have issued an instruction to the gardai to follow the 1993 law.

Was such an instruction ever given or did she just ignore the law?

Sierra Oscar

Godge wrote: »

Was such an instruction ever given or did she just ignore the law?

Or did the Gardai just ignore instructions that might have been given?

It will all come out in the Commission of Inquiry!

We already have one former Minister for Justice say that she was not aware of this, yet the system received a major overhaul when she was in power in 1996. I would say the other former ministers will say similar, although any person who has sought legal advice probably will hold their fire until the Commission of Inquiry gets underway.

The ministers should have been aware if they were being kept in the loop, so that's a problem in itself. Nora Owen reiterated again today that she believed recording was only taking place to monitor the 999 network.

Godge

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Or did the Gardai just ignore instructions that might have been given?

It will all come out in the Commission of Inquiry!

We already have one former Minister for Justice say that she was not aware of this, yet the system received a major overhaul when she was in power in 1996. I would say the other former ministers will say similar, although any person who has sought legal advice probably will hold their fire until the Commission of Inquiry gets underway.

Perhaps the gardai did ignore instructions.

It would also be interesting to learn whether the law was interpreted in any way by the AG or the Department over the years.

The 1993 law forbade intercepting and recording phone calls unless

(1) authorised by the Minister, or
(2) one party was aware the conversation was being recorded.

If, as has been suggested, white stickers were place on certain phones, and gardai told that calls on those phones were being recorded, did that mean AGS believed the conditions in (2) were being met.

This runs into the problem that even if all gardai were told something in 1993 and that made it legal then, what were the arrangements for telling new gardai and/or others who used those telephones. If that fell through, did a culture of acceptance of recordings once again arise within the gardai?

renegademaster

Godge wrote: »

Was such an instruction ever given or did she just ignore the law?

sure the people didn't give a $hit so just kleep the head down and carry on, massive pension/s to you on your way out

renegademaster

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Or did the Gardai just ignore instructions that might have been given?

It will all come out in the Commission of Inquiry!

it will ya :rolleyes:

Sierra Oscar

Godge wrote: »

Perhaps the gardai did ignore instructions.

It would also be interesting to learn whether the law was interpreted in any way by the AG or the Department over the years.

The 1993 law forbade intercepting and recording phone calls unless

(1) authorised by the Minister, or
(2) one party was aware the conversation was being recorded.

If, as has been suggested, white stickers were place on certain phones, and gardai told that calls on those phones were being recorded, did that mean AGS believed the conditions in (2) were being met.

This runs into the problem that even if all gardai were told something in 1993 and that made it legal then, what were the arrangements for telling new gardai and/or others who used those telephones. If that fell through, did a culture of acceptance of recordings once again arise within the gardai?

Yep, good points. Perhaps a further explanation is that the white stickers were, at one time or another, used to indicate that certain lines in and out of Garda stations were being monitored. Then at some stage an upgrade was completed that widened this to all telephone lines coming in and out of certain stations without informing rank and file Gardai. Then over time the whole system just became forgotten about within the force except for those who were operating it.

Also I think it is important to say that this might not have been intentional malpractice. You could say that the system might have been upgraded at one time or another and whoever was in charge did not attach enough significance to the legal repercussions of having more widespread recording.

There is no evidence yet to suggest that the records were improperly accessed. However the issue is that there was no proper auditing in place, and the Gardai were probably themselves falling foul of more recent data protection laws. Therefore even if malpractice was not proved, it could be argued in court that there is no way of knowing for sure that a miscarriage of justice did not occur and there lies the major problem.