Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

renegademaster

fr3d12 wrote: »

It's only in the private sector where if you're useless at your job that you get the boot.
If it was suggested to the unions that pay and pensions be linked to performance they would be uproar, at least we wouldn't have Bertie and Co. on hundreds of thousands with multiple pensions for doing one job, the attitude with many in the public serivce especially those at the top is to protect what you've got while you gather more!

the unions could be told to get to fcuk if the people decided they wanted corrupt individuals hauled up into court and having their pensions removed if they were proven to have acted in their own interests

renegademaster

tayto lover wrote: »

Just wait and see what happens.
A few Judges will be appointed to investigate and then form a Policing Board.
The Govt will come out and say "look what we have done, we have changed everything for the better".
They will fail to state though that these same Judges were their friends and associates and were appointed as Judges by them in the first place.
It will be like Back to the Future.

enough will read all about how the judges are their friends and that nothing has really changed, in fact they'll read and know how things will be actually worse after the changes, and again unless those people who are awake start doing something we are doomed!!

hatrickpatrick

bubblypop wrote: »

These tapes came to light when the state tried to use recorded phone calls between members of AGS against them in the Waterford assault trial.

GSOC received the tapes, and they were given to the DPP as evidence against the guards.
Why was all this not picked up then?

It wasnt known at the time that this had occurred at any other Garda station. The only way GSOC could have investigated would have been to open a separate investigation under section 102(4), and given how much they've been attacked for doing so in the case of suspected bugging, it's not hard to see why they might have been a little reluctant without having further evidence.

The entire debate over GSOC's invstigation of the bugging has been as follows:
Government: why did you open an investigation?
GSOC: To try and find out whether the Gardai might have bugged us.
Government: But you need to have EVIDENCE in order to open an investigation!!!
GSOC: The whole point of investigating was to see whether or not there was evidence...

I mean they honestly can't win. Yes, it can be argued that they were too "shy" about using their powers to potentially investigate all Garda stations, but given the political sh!tstorm which results if they subsequently don't find anything conclusive but merely had the temerity to suspect the Gardai of not wearing halos in the first place... They're between a rock and a hard place.

From my reading of it, the idea that all phone calls in all Garda stations might have been being bugged was such a far fetched suggestion that it didn't seem to have crossed anyone's mind at the time. The fact that GSOC published a report on it and the department didn't even bother to read it shows how much importance was placed on it by government at the time...

fr3d12

renegademaster wrote: »

the unions could be told to get to fcuk if the people decided they wanted corrupt individuals hauled up into court and having their pensions removed if they were proven to have acted in their own interests

Pensions come under property rights in the constitution so I'm sure it would need to be changed but in all reality I can't ever see it happening unfortunately.

renegademaster wrote: »

enough will read all about how the judges are their friends and that nothing has really changed, in fact they'll read and know how things will be actually worse after the changes, and again unless those people who are awake start doing something we are doomed!!

None of the political parties want a policing board nor did they want GSOC to have the necessary powers so that says it all really.
All of a sudden when Shatter is teetering on the brink we get a commission of inquiry into a new(old) bugging controversy that might well turn out to be not nearly as bad as it could be and may have been just an oversight in most respects but the Govt. will try and spin the bejaysus out of it as usual.

JRant

fr3d12 wrote: »

Pensions come under property rights in the constitution so I'm sure it would need to be changed but in all reality I can't ever see it happening unfortunately.



None of the political parties want a policing board nor did they want GSOC to have the necessary powers so that says it all really.
All of a sudden when Shatter is teetering on the brink we get a commission of inquiry into a new(old) bugging controversy that might well turn out to be not nearly as bad as it could be and may have been just an oversight in most respects but the Govt. will try and spin the bejaysus out of it as usual.

SNAFU if ever I've seen it. You could be right but if it swings the other way and we see some high profile cases being overturned then that surely is it for the Government.

Could the current Government hold out if the proverbial hits the fan?

fr3d12

JRant wrote: »

SNAFU if ever I've seen it. You could be right but if it swings the other way and we see some high profile cases being overturned then that surely is it for the Government.

Could the current Government hold out if the proverbial hits the fan?

If Labour were in a strong position at the opinion polls and not afraid of an election you can guarantee they would be demanding answers from Shatter and not backing him so there's no way they will even think of making waves so I think the Govt. will hold out regardless.

Maudi

And all the time the country is going through a suicide epidemic. Record home repossessions and rampant emigration while dirty little shatter/kenny and the rest of those degenerates from all parties grab and fill up the media with their grubby sordid storys..shame on them all..

spinach_eater

LostinKildare wrote: »

FYI Justine McCarthy wrote several weeks ago in the Sunday Times (9th March I think) about the allegations that a judge pressed John Wilson to withdraw his complaint. This was on foot of Joe Higgins' having referenced it in the Dail on the 26th February. Clip below.

where was garda Wilson stationed ?


know that and you know which judge it is

constance tench

Some of these recordings will have connections that go all the way to the President...;)

raymon

I find the Fianna Fail pot calling the kettle black to be highly cynical.

Apart from the fact that the garda digital bugging equipment was installed while Dermot Ahern was Minister Fianna Fail are up to their neck in the penalty points scandal.

Regarding penalty points :

Timmy Dooley got the Gardai to quash points for himself according to the Sunday World:
http://www.sundayworld.com/top-stories/news/cops-cancelled-points-for-td

Seamus Kirk "might have had" the Gardai quash points for him too

http://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/news/business/penalty-points-for-politicians-1-4977391

Other Fianna Fail TDs refuse to divulge

Judge Mary Devins ( ex Fianna Fail TD Jimmy Devins wife) had her points removed.

No fan of Shatter but their fake outrage and motions of no confidence are publicity stunts.

fr3d12

spinach_eater wrote: »

where was garda Wilson stationed ?


know that and you know which judge it is

He was stationed in Clones as far as I know

fr3d12

raymon wrote: »

I find the Fianna Fail pot calling the kettle black to be highly cynical.

Apart from the fact that the garda digital bugging equipment was installed while Dermot Ahern was Minister Fianna Fail are up to their neck in the penalty points scandal.

Regarding penalty points :

Timmy Dooley got the Gardai to quash points for himself according to the Sunday World:
http://www.sundayworld.com/top-stories/news/cops-cancelled-points-for-td

Seamus Kirk "might have had" the Gardai quash points for him too

http://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/news/business/penalty-points-for-politicians-1-4977391

Other Fianna Fail TDs refuse to divulge

Judge Mary Devins ( ex Fianna Fail TD Jimmy Devins wife) had her points removed.

No fan of Shatter but their fake outrage and motions of no confidence are publicity stunts.

You are right to be cynical but the reality is that if it were FG and Labour in opposition we would still have the fake outrage just from a different bunch of hypocrites.

sparkling sea

Busted Flat. wrote: »

bubblypop wrote:

Gardai are not allowed to join unions, hence they only have representative bodies. I believe AGSI have come out against it & stated their members were not aware of the recordings.

You must not have heard the rte news at one.

To me the unions not kicking up much of a fuss is mind boggling - I smell a rat here!!!!! Did they know this was happening ??? Why are they being so quiet, its very very strange.

Civilians unions not Garda organisations - no brainer lads

tayto lover

I think the garda only have Representative Bodies and can't join Unions.
Representative Bodies seem to fear the higher authorities and are not allowed to criticise. They had a very poor spokesman on today who didn't seem to know what he was talking about at all.

sopretty

There seems to be a lot of fear involved in being a garda.

Fear of authority? Am I right?

tayto lover

sopretty wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of fear involved in being a garda.

Fear of authority? Am I right?

I remember a few years ago some of them walked out on Shatter when he attended their meeting and they were hauled before their bosses and had to apologise or be sacked. Callinan probably made them apologise as he was Shatter's friend.

sopretty

tayto lover wrote: »

I remember a few years ago some of them walked out on Shatter when he attended their meeting and they were hauled before their bosses and had to apologise or be sacked. Callinan probably made them apologise as he was Shatter's friend.

They need to stand up for themselves. Instead of following the leader and pissing off half the population in the process.

tayto lover

sopretty wrote: »

They need to stand up for themselves. Instead of following the leader and pissing off half the population in the process.

Politicians seem to run the garda force as they pull the strings on the people they promoted. Each party seem to promote their own cronies when in power in order to control it seems. Time to end this policy.

sparkling sea

Don't know what's happening here, Garda are not the only people who work in Garda stations,. Civilians who are represented by lower and higher civil and/or public service unions also work in Garda stations. Why aren't their unions up in arms considering the possible infringement of their members rights?? Why is no one addressing this

JRant

sopretty wrote: »

They need to stand up for themselves. Instead of following the leader and pissing off half the population in the process.

You can't have the Garda going around standing up for themselves though. They should do what they swore an oath to do and uphold the constitution.

This should not boil down to becoming insubordinate with their superiors. There should be proper channels to report any wrong doing and more importantly that action will be taken.

Going Forward

sopretty wrote: »

They need to stand up for themselves. Instead of following the leader and pissing off half the population in the process.

No they don't. They need to know their place.

But there does need to be some genuine, simple and honest mechanism for reporting and correcting malpractice.

IMO Public distrust and cynicism requires that AGS and GSOC should be folded up and genuinely re-branded with a new set of oversight regulations.

Even though the same employees may remain a new modern clean culture could be enforced if done correctly. It won't happen.

Going Forward

JRant wrote: »

If GSOC had more teeth and were able to do as you suggested things would chamge quickly. You can be sure that a swift round of prosecution and losing those juicy pensions would focus the minds fairly lively.

We must ask why was GSOC given such limited powers.

Suspected Garda malpractice may only be reported by someone affected by it personally.

That is a complete joke!!

Was it set up as some sort of toothless appeasement just because there had to be an "independent" overseer of some sort?

Scofflaw

When quoting posts with quotes already inside them, please be careful with the square brackets, otherwise you end up with something that looks like this:

OP wrote:

quote=Person1]Something Else

OP wrote:

Something

[/QUOTE]

and what appears to be attributed to one poster is actually what was posted by another.

moderately,
Scofflaw

fr3d12

Going Forward wrote: »

We must ask why was GSOC given such limited powers.

Suspected Garda malpractice may only be reported by someone affected by it personally.

That is a complete joke!!

Was it set up as some sort of toothless appeasement just because there had to be an "independent" overseer of some sort?

That's all it has been all along, take Connolly for example as the confidential recipient he was advising people that "Shatter will go after you", I genuinely think he meant well but IMO all he was is a weak party man, appointed by the MoJ and totally malleable, Shatter should never be allowed appoint anyone again because he only appoints those he can intimidate or manipulate, the same for any other politician of any party as well and as long as promotions are linked to towing the line quietly how are we ever going to be guaranteed that the right man or woman is in the job

Going Forward

fr3d12 wrote: »

That's all it has been all along, take Connolly for example as the confidential recipient he was advising people that "Shatter will go after you", I genuinely think he meant well but IMO all he was is a weak party man, appointed by the MoJ and totally malleable, Shatter should never be allowed appoint anyone again because he only appoints those he can intimidate or manipulate, the same for any other politician of any party as well and as long as promotions are linked to towing the line quietly how are we ever going to be guaranteed that the right man or woman is in the job

I agree, but who then is going to make the appointments if the politicians can't be trusted?

That's not been addressed here as far as I can see.

fr3d12

Going Forward wrote: »

I agree, but who then is going to make the appointments if the politicians can't be trusted?

That's not been addressed here as far as I can see.

That's the big question.
The policing board of NI is made up of members from all parties but I couldn't see that working down here and call me old fashioned but I don't trust lawyers or judges retired or otherwise.

bajer101

Well, it's been a couple of days since the news of the Garda station bugging was conveniently released. We were led to believe that this a huge issue with far reaching consequences. At this stage I'd have expected to have heard about a lot more about particular convictions that could be appealed. But so far all we have had was a case with two RA heads where the concerns were quickly dismissed, and the notorious Limerick solicitor trying to use it in a Dundon case. Other than that - nothing! Maybe this is a bottle of smoke and it was just used as a distraction. It's hard to know which scenario is worse.

fr3d12

bajer101 wrote: »

Well, it's been a couple of days since the news of the Garda station bugging was conveniently released. We were led to believe that this a huge issue with far reaching consequences. At this stage I'd have expected to have heard about a lot more about particular convictions that could be appealed. But so far all we have had was a case with two RA heads where the concerns were quickly dismissed, and the notorious Limerick solicitor trying to use it in a Dundon case. Other than that - nothing! Maybe this is a bottle of smoke and it was just used as a distraction. It's hard to know which scenario is worse.

There's just too many holes in the Govt. story,It definitely seems like a clumsy and rushed attempt to diffuse and buy time.

Apparently every phone used by the Gardai had a white sticker denoting it as a recorded device and It could well turn out the only real issue involved is why the system was in place for so long, that said it does by all accounts seem somehow relevant to the Ian Bailey case, either way I certainly don't believe the Govt. brought this to our attention because it was the noble thing to do!

Gergiev

two wheels good wrote: »

I too am suspicious of the handling of the discovery of the phone recordings and the handling of letters between the govt offices. But I don't see Kenny needed another reason to give Callanan the push. He already had cause with the "Disgusting" remarks controversy dragging on

PS Interesting post. Thanks

2WG, don't forget that Kenny and the entire cabinet were at that stage foursquare behind Callanan and Shatter's backing and handling of this issue.

Sacking Callanan after that would have implied either no confidence in Shatter or complete incompetence and we couldn't have that now, could we? :rolleyes:

Bringing in the other issue at the last minute effectively de-coupled Callanan from Shatter and rendered him expendable.

As I wrote above, it appears that the commissioner handled the recording issue properly.

If the proverbial 'Man from Mars' arrived on our planet yesterday, his first reaction would be that an Attorney General who didn't act for 4 months on information that has overnight predicated a Commission of Enquiry, no less, from a Tribunal/Enquiry-phobic government should be shown the door without any ado.

As stated above, Callanan and Shatter should have been gone months ago for their interference in the course of justice.

Thanks for the feedback...

Gergiev

bajer101 wrote: »

Excellent post and arguably the best piece of writing that I have read on the issue - and that includes articles in the media.

Bajer, thank you very much for the feedback.

Just a couple more reflections...

Listening to Enda Kenny again today, he once more instanced the possibility that the conclusions of Tribunals may now be challenged. Which seems to be puzzling as legal 'experts' consulted in the media seem to be discarding this outcome. However, he has shown himself to be so Machiavellian in the last few days that one can't discount the possibility that he's opening a door for his old pal, Denis O'Brien.

Denis O'Brien remains the only oligarch in this country (in the sense that it's understood in Russia as one who reaps an immense fortune from acquiring something from the state by undue influence, corruption and favour) and has been found by a Tribunal of Enquiry to have bribed the relevant (FG) minister to win the competition for a license that conferred immense wealth on him and was the foundation of a financial war-chest that has seen him leap-frog into the mega-wealthy league - and almost immediately abandon his domicile in the country that gave him this opportunity, thus paying almost no tax here.

Despite this, the so-called party of propriety Fine Gael has made no effort whatsoever to have the results of this Tribunal have any kind of consequential effect on O'Brien or our national life and really seem to be hoping that the whole thing just goes away and is forgotten, until they resume photo-opportunities and 'normal business' with one of their former substantial benefactors.

In this context, the Taoiseach's comments are very troubling, indeed...

The other extraordinary development of the last few days is the new-found conversion of the Irish political establishment to the requirement for an 'independent' Garda 'Authority'. This idea has been around for decades and was particularly aired during the processes that led to the Belfast Agreement in the 90s when some enlightened commentators wondered as the North acquired 'state of the art' police oversight and scrutiny bodies, as to why we weren't taking steps in the same direction.

As usual, this was dismissed by all the main players and associated 'actors' in this state along the lines of the standard guff of us having one of the best police forces in the world and a body of exemplary professionals beyond civilian criticism, etc, etc. Now they can't get to a microphone quick enough to insist that this long overdue oversight body must be implemented without delay!

A thought to leave you with is the recent expose by political journalist Pat Leahy that of 1,100 appointments to various state bodies, quangos, etc, since this coalition came to power, approx 1000 of those (over 90%) have gone to supporters of Fine Gael and Labour.

So now we can amuse ourselves by speculating as to what kind of 'independent Garda Authority' we can expect to have after the current bout of political hysteria and 'soul-searching' has run it's course.

Be afraid, fellow citizens, be very afraid!!!