Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

fr3d12

renegademaster wrote: »

it will ya :rolleyes:

That's what I was thinking.
A commission of inquiry sounds great on the face of it but I won't hold my breath.
Getting to the truth in serious matters has never been a priority for any Govt.

raymon

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Or did the Gardai just ignore instructions that might have been given?

It will all come out in the Commission of Inquiry!

We already have one former Minister for Justice say that she was not aware of this, yet the system received a major overhaul when she was in power in 1996. I would say the other former ministers will say similar, although any person who has sought legal advice probably will hold their fire until the Commission of Inquiry gets underway.

The ministers should have been aware if they were being kept in the loop, so that's a problem in itself. Nora Owen reiterated again today that she believed recording was only taking place to monitor the 999 network.

Why doesnt Dermot Ahern just make a statement on what he knew?

Looks very suspicious at this stage, all that digital bugging equipment being paid for and installed while he was in charge. And while his buddy Callinan was at the helm.

come on Fianna Fail , do the right thing for once.

Happyman42

raymon wrote: »

Why doesnt Dermot Ahern just make a statement on what he knew?

Looks very suspicious at this stage, all that digital bugging equipment being paid for and installed while he was in charge. And while his buddy Callinan was at the helm.

come on Fianna Fail , do the right thing for once.

Surely there is a paper trail somewhere, or will the paperwork have mysteriously disappeared?

Godge

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Yep, good points. Perhaps a further explanation is that the white stickers were, at one time or another, used to indicate that certain lines in and out of Garda stations were being monitored. Then at some stage an upgrade was completed that widened this to all telephone lines coming in and out of certain stations without informing rank and file Gardai. Then over time the whole system just became forgotten about within the force except for those who were operating it.

Also I think it is important to say that this might not have been intentional malpractice. You could say that the system might have been upgraded at one time or another and whoever was in charge did not attach enough significance to the legal repercussions of having more widespread recording.

There is no evidence yet to suggest that the records were improperly accessed. However the issue is that there was no proper auditing in place, and the Gardai were probably themselves falling foul of more recent data protection laws. Therefore even if malpractice was not proved, it could be argued in court that there is no way of knowing for sure that a miscarriage of justice did not occur and there lies the major problem.

You may be right but it may not have been intentional malpractice, and cultures of acceptance and forgetting occur in almost every organisation. It takes someone new to ask the question, why do we always do this?

But it is too easy to excuse those who authorised upgrades, be they Nora Owen or Dermot Ahern or civil servants working for them. That is when the issue should have been picked up as they would not be coming at the issue from an acceptance culture perspective.

Sierra Oscar

Godge wrote: »

But it is too easy to excuse those who authorised upgrades, be they Nora Owen or Dermot Ahern or civil servants working for them. That is when the issue should have been picked up as they would not be coming at the issue from an acceptance culture perspective.

Agreed 100%. If Ministers didn't know, then they should have asked and you can be sure as hell that they would have taken action given the enormous repercussions that this could all have.

The 'don't ask, don't tell' culture is all too alive in Ireland. Believe it or not, ministers are often scared to dig too deep into murky issues within their own departments. You can see from this current fiasco that the civil service were perhaps withholding information from the minister too.

Also, I see raymon is continuing his petty attacks. Not willing to discuss the issue at hand, just spew out the same sentence page in page out. Any former minister for justice who has his head screwed on will know that it is not wise to make statements that could massively impact on the Commission of Inquiry before it is even setup.

If you think the culture of suspicion and privacy within our state institutions only occurs when Fianna Fáil is in power, then you are greatly mistaken. It has been like that since the foundation of our state and is continuing today. The only reason these tapes came to light was because of the persistence of Ian Bailey's legal team. Political attacks aside, we have inherited a civil service from our time of union with Great Britain that is greatly suspicious of outsiders, deeply conservative and very reluctant to embrace change.

The sad thing is, very few are speaking out about this. God help the minister that tries to bring about the change that is needed, it certainly would not be embraced with open arms.

My name is URL

AGSI saying they had no idea that calls were being recorded - http://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-want-to-know-if-they-were-recorded-1385531-Mar2014/

Yet the GRA say they were fully aware of the practice - http://www.thejournal.ie/gra-garda-rank-and-file-callinan-calls-garda-gate-1386524-Mar2014/#comment-2278569

Looks like they're going head to head on the matter. It'll be interesting to see who Shatter sides with

raymon

Happyman42 wrote: »

Surely there is a paper trail somewhere, or will the paperwork have mysteriously disappeared?

I hope someone gets to the docs before they end up in the Fianna Fail shredders

Sierra Oscar

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Yep, good points. Perhaps a further explanation is that the white stickers were, at one time or another, used to indicate that certain lines in and out of Garda stations were being monitored. Then at some stage an upgrade was completed that widened this to all telephone lines coming in and out of certain stations without informing rank and file Gardai. Then over time the whole system just became forgotten about within the force except for those who were operating it.

Also I think it is important to say that this might not have been intentional malpractice. You could say that the system might have been upgraded at one time or another and whoever was in charge did not attach enough significance to the legal repercussions of having more widespread recording.

There is no evidence yet to suggest that the records were improperly accessed. However the issue is that there was no proper auditing in place, and the Gardai were probably themselves falling foul of more recent data protection laws. Therefore even if malpractice was not proved, it could be argued in court that there is no way of knowing for sure that a miscarriage of justice did not occur and there lies the major problem.

I think you have probably hit the nail on the head with this post.
Its extremely likely this was just forgotten about and whoever was responsible for installing and upkeeping the system didn't attach any importance to it.

Its just typical if you ask me, its a reaction force not a proaction force.
Things only change when a problem is encountered, no forward thinking.

Its amazing to think that there is such an emphasis put on data protection & someone somewhere didn't realise this was a problem when the act came in.

What happened on the one o clock news then?

Sierra Oscar

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The only reason these tapes came to light was because of the persistence of Ian Bailey's legal team.

These tapes came to light when the state tried to use recorded phone calls between members of AGS against them in the Waterford assault trial.

GSOC received the tapes, and they were given to the DPP as evidence against the guards.
Why was all this not picked up then?

renegademaster

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The sad thing is, very few are speaking out about this. God help the minister that tries to bring about the change that is needed, it certainly would not be embraced with open arms.

again, people expect one person to go in to fix it, while the whole country sits there watching the corrupt tear him or her to shreds, the whole global system is setup so that no one person can really challenge the rot, when they do they're singled out, all the dirt that can be gathered through the communications spying network is thrown at them and they're gone, which is why the people or Ireland should be out on the streets giving whichever TD or TDs that are brave enough a mandate to do so!! until we unite and demand change all we're going to have is division and lies.

renegademaster

bubblypop wrote: »

These tapes came to light when the state tried to use recorded phone calls between members of AGS against them in the Waterford assault trial.

GSOC received the tapes, and they were given to the DPP as evidence against the guards.
Why was all this not picked up then?

cos it didn't suit them at the time, sure it didn't even suit Shatter to acknowledge the existence of tapes until it suited his parties agenda 2 weeks after he received the letter from callinan, probably filed under "hold off until we need a distraction"

Sierra Oscar

bubblypop wrote: »

Why was all this not picked up then?

Don't ask, don't tell. Major cultural problem. There is NO reward in store for people who start asking questions in our country, sure you can blatantly see that by the way the whistleblowers have been treated. It was only this morning we learned that a judge tried to put the pressure on to Maurice McCabe to not rock the boat. He was promised a job if he left the force quietly ffs, that says enough!

It seems the legal team for Bailey picked up on it though!

renegademaster

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Don't ask, don't tell. Major cultural problem. There is NO reward in store for people who start asking questions in our country!

It seems the legal team for Bailey picked up on it though!

if only the irish people can't pick up on anything for themselves. great at making excuses though, we've got an endless supply of them!!

My name is URL

My name is URL wrote: »

AGSI saying they had no idea that calls were being recorded - http://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-want-to-know-if-they-were-recorded-1385531-Mar2014/

Yet the GRA say they were fully aware of the practice - http://www.thejournal.ie/gra-garda-rank-and-file-callinan-calls-garda-gate-1386524-Mar2014/#comment-2278569

Looks like they're going head to head on the matter. It'll be interesting to see who Shatter sides with

For jaysus sake, gra are unbelievable, honestly at this stage I can say they speak for themselves & not too many gardai.

Yes, control room phone calls were recorded, like 999 calls. But public office phones?
I appeal to all members to pull out of the gra altogether, another part of the job that is too political.

Sierra Oscar

bubblypop wrote: »

Yes, control room phone calls were recorded, like 999 calls. But public office phones?

Yeah, from speaking to a few friends of mine who are in the force I think it is safe to say that most people were not aware about the extent of the recording being undertaken.

Yes everyone knew about the control room recordings, but sure you would take that as a given.

People keep their head down and do the work they are told to do. I doubt too many rank and file Gardai were worrying too much about the recording system, if they were even aware of its existence. You would assume that whoever is in charge has their head screwed on enough to be at least compliant with the law! Of course then you have a problem if there was no one really properly in charge of the recording network.

Mr.Micro

raymon wrote: »

Why doesnt Dermot Ahern just make a statement on what he knew?

Looks very suspicious at this stage, all that digital bugging equipment being paid for and installed while he was in charge. And while his buddy Callinan was at the helm.

come on Fianna Fail , do the right thing for once.

It might well come back to a previous administration as to the installation of this recording and monitoring of calls. An Garda Siochana are a law on to themselves, and IMO need a massive overhaul as to their duties, the law and who they serve.

LostinKildare

FYI Justine McCarthy wrote several weeks ago in the Sunday Times (9th March I think) about the allegations that a judge pressed John Wilson to withdraw his complaint. This was on foot of Joe Higgins' having referenced it in the Dail on the 26th February. Clip below.

tayto lover

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It might well come back to a previous administration as to the installation of this recording and monitoring of calls. An Garda Siochana are a law on to themselves, and IMO need a massive overhaul as to their duties, the law and who they serve.

It seems that it will never happen as long as the top people in the garda are political appointees and stooges to be used to control the garda force.
That political link needs to be severed.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

It seems that it will never happen as long as the top people in the garda are political appointees and stooges to be used to control the garda force.
That political link needs to be severed.

100%, this is the only way Gardai can be seen to be completely independant and try to get back the trust of the public.

renegademaster

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

You would assume that whoever is in charge has their head screwed on enough to be at least compliant with the law! Of course then you have a problem if there was no one really properly in charge of the recording network.

that's if the rule of law applied to them, there are certain people, organisations and others that feel, and they may be right to a certain degree due to mass hibernation, that they are above the law.

your post also reminds me of a movie i watch where the americans had renditioned some "terrorist" and as interrogations were about to commence, agencies started showing up to interrogate but at times nobody knew who had the juristiction and nobody knew who the guy was that had it, it was a good movie but this bit frightened the $hit out of me and since then i've watch the wikileaks, snowden and other scary things playing out for us all to see!!

Godge

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Agreed 100%. If Ministers didn't know, then they should have asked and you can be sure as hell that they would have taken action given the enormous repercussions that this could all have.

The 'don't ask, don't tell' culture is all too alive in Ireland. Believe it or not, ministers are often scared to dig too deep into murky issues within their own departments. You can see from this current fiasco that the civil service were perhaps withholding information from the minister too.

Also, I see raymon is continuing his petty attacks. Not willing to discuss the issue at hand, just spew out the same sentence page in page out. Any former minister for justice who has his head screwed on will know that it is not wise to make statements that could massively impact on the Commission of Inquiry before it is even setup.

If you think the culture of suspicion and privacy within our state institutions only occurs when Fianna Fáil is in power, then you are greatly mistaken. It has been like that since the foundation of our state and is continuing today. The only reason these tapes came to light was because of the persistence of Ian Bailey's legal team. Political attacks aside, we have inherited a civil service from our time of union with Great Britain that is greatly suspicious of outsiders, deeply conservative and very reluctant to embrace change.

The sad thing is, very few are speaking out about this. God help the minister that tries to bring about the change that is needed, it certainly would not be embraced with open arms.

FF shouldn't get off that easy. The culture of Haughey pervaded the upper echelons of the civil service for a very long time, continued by his acolyte Bertie, even through periods of opposition. I recall talking to a senior civil servant during the coalition government of the 1990s and him saying that he couldn't wait to get back to normal business after an election.

renegademaster wrote: »

again, people expect one person to go in to fix it, while the whole country sits there watching the corrupt tear him or her to shreds, the whole global system is setup so that no one person can really challenge the rot, when they do they're singled out, all the dirt that can be gathered through the communications spying network is thrown at them and they're gone, which is why the people or Ireland should be out on the streets giving whichever TD or TDs that are brave enough a mandate to do so!! until we unite and demand change all we're going to have is division and lies.

Interesting viewpoint, that any reformer will be torn to shreds. Who is the first Minister for Justice to seriously go after the barrister cartel in the Law Library? Alan Shatter.

fr3d12

tayto lover wrote: »

It seems that it will never happen as long as the top people in the garda are political appointees and stooges to be used to control the garda force.
That political link needs to be severed.

That would definitely be a start but the rotten culture within AGS has to be zealously tackled or in a few years we will be having this discussion again.
The same rotten culture that exists amongst our politicians has to change first though and so whether there is any true political will to implement real reform remains to be seen.

renegademaster

Godge wrote: »

Interesting viewpoint, that any reformer will be torn to shreds. Who is the first Minister for Justice to seriously go after the barrister cartel in the Law Library? Alan Shatter.

and that changed the whole political and social landscape in Ireland how?

I'm talking about someone challenging all forms of curruption and not something that most likely suited his own agenda somehow, otherwise he wouldn't have done it in my view

My name is URL

How can political links be cut in any meaningful way as long as AGS play such an important role in national / state security and have access to politically sensitive information? It won't happen because it can't happen.

Best you can ask for is the cessation of political appointments, but other than that AGS will always be hopelessly interwoven in politics.

rodento

Anyone know how long shatter has to summit his revised summary of the rits vs verrimus report to the Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions.

fr3d12

My name is URL wrote: »

How can political links be cut in any meaningful way as long as AGS play such an important role in national / state security and have access to politically sensitive information? It won't happen because it can't happen.

Best you can ask for is the cessation of political appointments, but other than that AGS will always be hopelessly interwoven in politics.

AGS and the political establishment since the inception of the state have been too close to the detriment of the people. How many thousands of children would have been saved and how many more would have received justice had the Gardai done their duty when it came to the allegations of abuse against the Church, that's just one example.

There has to be a GSOC with powers that can adequately investigate allegations for a start and serious disciplinary measures for Gardai of all ranks if they hinder any investigations or fail to co-operate.
There also has to be accountability, Callinan and his predecessors before him could make and break the rules when it suited them without fear of reprecussions and that attitude has permeated through the ranks.

A new policing board will probably oversee the appointments of senior Gardai but who will oversee the appointments of the appointees?

tayto lover

fr3d12 wrote: »

AGS and the political establishment since the inception of the state have been too close to the detriment of the people. How many thousands of children would have been saved and how many more would have received justice had the Gardai done their duty when it came to the allegations of abuse against the Church, that's just one example.

There has to be a GSOC with powers that can adequately investigate allegations for a start and serious disciplinary measures for Gardai of all ranks if they hinder any investigations or fail to co-operate.
There also has to be accountability, Callinan and his predecessors before him could make and break the rules when it suited them without fear of reprecussions and that attitude has permeated through the ranks.

A new policing board will probably oversee the appointments of senior Gardai but who will oversee the appointments of the appointees?

Just wait and see what happens.
A few Judges will be appointed to investigate and then form a Policing Board.
The Govt will come out and say "look what we have done, we have changed everything for the better".
They will fail to state though that these same Judges were their friends and associates and were appointed as Judges by them in the first place.
It will be like Back to the Future.

fr3d12

tayto lover wrote: »

Just wait and see what happens.
A few Judges will be appointed to investigate and then form a Policing Board.
The Govt will come out and say "look what we have done, we have changed everything for the better".
They will fail to state though that these same Judges were their friends and associates and were appointed as Judges by them in the first place.
It will be like Back to the Future.

Yup, that's everyone's biggest fear and based on how politics work in this country it is a very likely scenario.

JRant

fr3d12 wrote: »

AGS and the political establishment since the inception of the state have been too close to the detriment of the people. How many thousands of children would have been saved and how many more would have received justice had the Gardai done their duty when it came to the allegations of abuse against the Church, that's just one example.

There has to be a GSOC with powers that can adequately investigate allegations for a start and serious disciplinary measures for Gardai of all ranks if they hinder any investigations or fail to co-operate.
There also has to be accountability, Callinan and his predecessors before him could make and break the rules when it suited them without fear of reprecussions and that attitude has permeated through the ranks.

A new policing board will probably oversee the appointments of senior Gardai but who will oversee the appointments of the appointees?

If GSOC had more teeth and were able to do as you suggested things would chamge quickly. You can be sure that a swift round of prosecution and losing those juicy pensions would focus the minds fairly lively.

You can hold commitees into inquiries about tribunals till the cows come home but until the is a real threat of losing their jobs and/or pensions then nothing will change.

fr3d12

JRant wrote: »

If GSOC had more teeth and were able to do as you suggested things would chamge quickly. You can be sure that a swift round of prosecution and losing those juicy pensions would focus the minds fairly lively.

You can hold commitees into inquiries about tribunals till the cows come home but until the is a real threat of losing their jobs and/or pensions then nothing will change.

It's only in the private sector where if you're useless at your job that you get the boot.
If it was suggested to the unions that pay and pensions be linked to performance they would be uproar, at least we wouldn't have Bertie and Co. on hundreds of thousands with multiple pensions for doing one job, the attitude with many in the public serivce especially those at the top is to protect what you've got while you gather more!