Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

bajer101

Godge wrote: »

It has always been about the truth for me.

On both this issue and the alleged bugging, I have called for the reports to be published so that we can assess what exactly went on. If heads should roll when the truth comes out, then heads should roll.

However, there have been a large number of people who have only seen the two issues as having one objective - get Shatter, whatever the cost. Now he is not a very likeable person but he is hardworking and has got huge praise over the years in opposition for his principled views. But those views have also attracted criticism and made him enemies, something which has come home to roost and has been reflected in some of the over-the-top hysterical criticism of him.

It made me laugh this week when I saw that McCabe had written to Dermot Ahern's office about his concerns, got a response from his office, but Dermot Ahern said he never knew anything about it. Whatever way, Garda issues are being treated under the current government, it is a hell of a lot more open than under any previous government.

I am fairly apolitical in relation to all this and the political point scoring doesn't interest me at all. However, I do think that Shatter should go. I was listening to James Reilly on The Last Word this evening talking about the crisis at the Portlaoise Maternity Hospital and I was struck by the difference in his attitude to addressing it. Where Shatter has automatically jumped to the defence of the AGS hieracrchy and has engaged in obfuscation and legalese to try and discredit the whistleblowers, Reilly has been much more up front in admitting that there are problems and he has been very open and willing in voicing his concerns and promising to address the problems.

It both cases we have powerful State institutions who have been engaged in a cover-up. The HSE tried to cover-up malpractice that resulted in babies dying. AGS tried to cover up malpractice that a whistleblower tried to expose. Arguably, the HSE cover-up was worse. If Reilly had taken the same approach as Shatter, we would be having this conversation on that thread. But he didn't just automatically jump to the defence of the HSE and pour scorn on the very notion that they could be even accused of such a practice. He did his job, as a publicly elected minister and launched an investigation and endeavoured to get to the bottom of it and promised to try and fix it. Because that is his job - to act for the people, especially against powerful state bodies.

Shatter didn't take that approach. When the suspicion of GSOC being bugged was raised, he immediately tried to deflect away from that possibility, because he knew that AGS would be prime suspects. In the whole whistleblower saga he has tried to cast McCabe in the role of villain. He has acted as an extension of the hierarchy of AGS, instead of doing his job as acting for the people.

I am not sure if we would have seen a different reaction if we had a different MoJ, or even a MoJ from a different party. This tells you how deep this problem runs. The hierarchy of AGS appear to be beyond reproach and they seem to not be subject to the oversight of the elected MoJ, let alone the oversight of the toothless GSOC. Why can Reilly rip into the HSE and call the shots and appear in the media publicly castigating them when necessary, yet Shatter has to be seen to back Callinan and the upper echelons of AGS?

I don't believe that it's as simple as Callinan having the breathalyser file. I reckon if Callinan tried to pull that sh!t on Shatter he'd find himself in very serious trouble. I believe that it is because there is a belief that the police force has to be seen as uncorruptable. The Govt. has been sold the story that it is better to cover up the failings of AGS - to reveal the failings of the Kieran Boylan affair, or the other malpractice issues would result in the public having no confidence in AGS, and that would lead to a civic meltdown. It is ok to let the public know that babies can die due to negligence, but you can never let them know that AGS are fallible

Of course, this is absolute nonsense as everyone already knows that every police force in the world has its share of corruption and malpractice. I do think that Shatter and Callinan should go, but I would much prefer if Shatter launched real inquiries and when the inevitable results came back, that he stood up in the Dail and promised to do what was necessary to address them.

Slick50

Godge wrote: »

On both this issue and the alleged bugging, I have called for the reports to be published so that we can assess what exactly went on. If heads should roll when the truth comes out, then heads should roll.

Who have you called upon, to have these reports published? Are you talking as a boards poster? or what influence/connections do you have?

Godge wrote: »

However, there have been a large number of people who have only seen the two issues as having one objective - get Shatter, whatever the cost.

Godge wrote: »

But nobody cares about this. The opinion polls have shown that nobody cares. The lack of protest outside the Dail also shows this.
As I have said already, a few posters on here and on politics.ie thanking each others posts and a handful of journalists does not make serious people power.

So somebody, other than a few posters here, and a few journalists do care.?

Godge wrote: »

Now he is not a very likeable person but he is hardworking and has got huge praise over the years in opposition for his principled views. But those views have also attracted criticism and made him enemies, something which has come home to roost and has been reflected in some of the over-the-top hysterical criticism of him.

Any examples of these principled views? What has he done about them since coming into power?

Godge wrote: »

It made me laugh this week when I saw that McCabe had written to Dermot Ahern's office about his concerns, got a response from his office, but Dermot Ahern said he never knew anything about it. Whatever way, Garda issues are being treated under the current government, it is a hell of a lot more open than under any previous government.

Yes, it's good to see the establishment so angst to have this dealt with openly and fairly.

nuac

bajer101 wrote: »

I am fairly apolitical in relation to all this and the political point scoring doesn't interest me at all. However, I do think that Shatter should go. I was listening to James Reilly on The Last Word this evening talking about the crisis at the Portlaoise Maternity Hospital and I was struck by the difference in his attitude to addressing it. Where Shatter has automatically jumped to the defence of the AGS hieracrchy and has engaged in obfuscation and legalese to try and discredit the whistleblowers, Reilly has been much more up front in admitting that there are problems and he has been very open and willing in voicing his concerns and promising to address the problems.

It both cases we have powerful State institutions who have been engaged in a cover-up. The HSE tried to cover-up malpractice that resulted in babies dying. AGS tried to cover up malpractice that a whistleblower tried to expose. Arguably, the HSE cover-up was worse. If Reilly had taken the same approach as Shatter, we would be having this conversation on that thread. But he didn't just automatically jump to the defence of the HSE and pour scorn on the very notion that they could be even accused of such a practice. He did his job, as a publicly elected minister and launched an investigation and endeavoured to get to the bottom of it and promised to try and fix it. Because that is his job - to act for the people, especially against powerful state bodies.

Shatter didn't take that approach. When the suspicion of GSOC being bugged was raised, he immediately tried to deflect away from that possibility, because he knew that AGS would be prime suspects. In the whole whistleblower saga he has tried to cast McCabe in the role of villain. He has acted as an extension of the hierarchy of AGS, instead of doing his job as acting for the people.

I am not sure if we would have seen a different reaction if we had a different MoJ, or even a MoJ from a different party. This tells you how deep this problem runs. The hierarchy of AGS appear to be beyond reproach and they seem to not be subject to the oversight of the elected MoJ, let alone the oversight of the toothless GSOC. Why can Reilly rip into the HSE and call the shots and appear in the media publicly castigating them when necessary, yet Shatter has to be seen to back Callinan and the upper echelons of AGS?

I don't believe that it's as simple as Callinan having the breathalyser file. I reckon if Callinan tried to pull that sh!t on Shatter he'd find himself in very serious trouble. I believe that it is because there is a belief that the police force has to be seen as uncorruptable. The Govt. has been sold the story that it is better to cover up the failings of AGS - to reveal the failings of the Kieran Boylan affair, or the other malpractice issues would result in the public having no confidence in AGS, and that would lead to a civic meltdown. It is ok to let the public know that babies can die due to negligence, but you can never let them know that AGS are fallible

Of course, this is absolute nonsense as everyone already knows that every police force in the world has its share of corruption and malpractice. I do think that Shatter and Callinan should go, but I would much prefer if Shatter launched real inquiries and when the inevitable results came back, that he stood up in the Dail and promised to do what was necessary to address them.

Good and thoughtful post

renegademaster

Sand wrote: »

Yet he seems to have nailed his colours (and indeed his political career) to the mast of people who, at the most generous interpretation of his chaotic handling of this issue, have been either lying to him or have something on him. That doesn't say much for his principled views or his judgement. I remember that Shatter had to deny that the Gardai were briefing him on political enemies to leak to his advantage - and the treatment of Clare Daly (who I have no time for politically) was quite simply disgusting.

I have a growing admiration for this guy McCabe - he's been cynical enough to be a step ahead of the likes of Shatter and Callinan all the way though this. I can only imagine the horror they had when they realised he had taped the conversations.

if only more were like him, we might put up a fight to all corrupt fcukers for once and for all but no the people seem to think abuse of power and all that stops when it comes to the civilians, i am as cynical as McCabe but have to live in a country where we're constantly being shown fcukery going on and elites getting away with whatever they like and the more we let them the more dangerous they become.

My name is URL

Godge wrote: »

But nobody cares about this. The opinion polls have shown that nobody cares.

You were saying?...

THERE IS BAD news today for coalition parties as the latest political opinion poll results shows a collapse in Government support.

The poll, commissioned by The Sunday Independent and carried out by Millward Brown, shows a significant fall-off in support for Fine Gael and Labour

• Fine Gael: 27 per cent (down three)
• Fianna Fáil: 21 per cent (down five)
• Sinn Féin: 22 per cent (up six)
• Labour: 8 per cent (down four)
• Independent and others: 22 per cent (up 6)

The poll, which was conducted between 19 – 28 February, during the period of the recent controversies involving the gardaí, the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission (GSOC) and Minister for Justice Alan Shatter.

http://www.thejournal.ie/millward-brown-poll-for-the-sunday-independent-1339829-Mar2014/

sopretty

Sinn Fein are polling well - higher than FF?

Silentcorner

My name is URL wrote: »

You were saying?...

• Fine Gael: 27 per cent (down three)
• Fianna Fáil: 21 per cent (down five)
• Sinn Féin: 22 per cent (up six)
• Labour: 8 per cent (down four)
• Independent and others: 22 per cent (up 6)

http://www.thejournal.ie/millward-brown-poll-for-the-sunday-independent-1339829-Mar2014/

With undecideds at 35%, that puts the combined "mainstream" party support at 17.5 FG, 13.5 FF, 5.2 Lab = 36%, that is only 36% of people polled indicated support for one of the 3 main parties, (ie the FG figure is 27% of 65% of the total poll) I am aware that the undecideds will choose but who can say where they will go, the mainstream parties certainly don't know what support is coming to them....maybe I am miscalculating those figures, but that is shockingly low, we are in for an interesting few weeks ahead, expect promises of tax cuts and a plethora of parochial goodies mixed with a lot of mudslinging.

This sorry mess has only underlined the disdain the ordinary public have for the establishment, we, in growing numbers, are in agreement, the state is rotten.

Happyman42

My name is URL wrote: »

You were saying?...

• Fine Gael: 27 per cent (down three)
• Fianna Fáil: 21 per cent (down five)
• Sinn Féin: 22 per cent (up six)
• Labour: 8 per cent (down four)
• Independent and others: 22 per cent (up 6)

http://www.thejournal.ie/millward-brown-poll-for-the-sunday-independent-1339829-Mar2014/

Shatter's death warrant?

Banjo String

My name is URL wrote: »

You were saying?...

• Fine Gael: 27 per cent (down three)
• Fianna Fáil: 21 per cent (down five)
• Sinn Féin: 22 per cent (up six)
• Labour: 8 per cent (down four)
• Independent and others: 22 per cent (up 6)

http://www.thejournal.ie/millward-brown-poll-for-the-sunday-independent-1339829-Mar2014/

Was just logging on to post the same thing.

They think it's bad now. Wait until they start knocking on doors coming up to the local elections.

With only 8%, Labour would do well to walk away from Govt now. It might be the only thing that saves them.

Great to see Sinn Fein make such massive gains.

Muahahaha

The poll shows losses for all three of the establishment parties with the gains hoovered up by SF and the independents. Which kinda suggests that the public see FF to be just as much to blame as FG/Lab in respect of the Garda corruption saga.

Judgement Day

Kenny, Gilmore, Shatter and Dr.Reilly must be praying for an all-out Russian invasion of the Ukraine to move the media spotlight away from them.

Going Forward

The Fine Gael party unquestionably supports Minister Shatter's recent "performances".

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-gael-shows-support-for-alan-shatter-with-standing-ovation-30053693.html

I now really know which party I will not vote for ever again.

Well done, you were given an opportunity to live the whiter than white political promise and you blew it!

Hootanany

Yes that's done it for me as well.

twowheelsgood

Banjo String wrote: »

They think it's bad now. Wait until they start knocking on doors coming up to the local elections.

Government parties always take a hammering in local elections when difficult (i.e. unpopular) decisions have to be made. Only the most deluded in either government party would have expected anything different when the formed a government 3 years ago.

Banjo String wrote: »

With only 8%, Labour would do well to walk away from Govt now. It might be the only thing that saves them.

The might. If they have a death wish! Their game plan will be, as it is for every government, to introduce a popular (or at least less unpopular) budget before the election and hope for the best. How well this plan works remains to be seen.

Going Forward wrote: »

The poll shows losses for all three of the establishment parties with the gains hoovered up by SF and the independents. Which kinda suggests that the public see FF to be just as much to blame as FG/Lab in respect of the Garda corruption saga.

In relation to FF this is the line the Sunday Indo is taking but it doesn’t seem quite credible to me. A 5% drop in their support has to be down to more than the GSOC controversy IMO.

Muahahaha wrote: »

The Fine Gael party unquestionably supports Minister Shatter's recent "performances".

But surely, as with association football managers, this is par for the course. You either back your man to the hilt, or you sack him. It is one of the oddities of politics that you cannot have a middle ground, otherwise the opposition will seize the opportunity. Privately, I expect many within FG will be less than thrilled that this has continued long enough to overlap with their Ard Fheis.

Slick50

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Government parties always take a hammering in local elections when difficult (i.e. unpopular) decisions have to be made. Only the most deluded in either government party would have expected anything different when the formed a government 3 years ago.

Or maybe people are considering where to cast their vote, and remembering that FG held the sway of power in most local councils, while planning permission was being granted willy nilly. Then when they got into power, cancelled the enquiries into planning during the (ka)boom years.

twowheelsgood wrote: »

The might. If they have a death wish! Their game plan will be, as it is for every government, to introduce a popular (or at least less unpopular) budget before the election and hope for the best. How well this plan works remains to be seen.

Their plan is to stay the course and maximise the pensions for the head men. This will most likely be their last term in government.

twowheelsgood wrote: »

But surely, as with association football managers, this is par for the course. You either back your man to the hilt, or you sack him.

And, as with football managers, they get 100% backing right up to getting the boot.

renegademaster

Judgement Day wrote: »

Kenny, Gilmore, Shatter and Dr.Reilly must be praying for an all-out Russian invasion of the Ukraine to move the media spotlight away from them.

they're not the only EU "leaders" praying for an all out invasion in the Ukraine to take to spotlight away from them or to further agendas

Going Forward wrote: »

The Fine Gael party unquestionably supports Minister Shatter's recent "performances".

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-gael-shows-support-for-alan-shatter-with-standing-ovation-30053693.html

I now really know which party I will not vote for ever again.

Well done, you were given an opportunity to live the whiter than white political promise and you blew it!

Hootanany wrote: »

Yes that's done it for me as well.

so that's it then, we're resigning to voting these corrupt hoors out in april 2016, no matter what they do we're going to leave them in power another 2 years???????????????????????????????????????????????????

fr3d12

Phoebas wrote: »

No more trite than demanding less spin, more accountability and less incompetence. People don't want vague platitudes - they want worked out policies.


The electoral test.

If you want platitudes vague or otherwise I suggest you look at FG/LAB pre-election promises. Suggesting our Govt., TD's and public servants play by the same rules as every law abiding person in this country seems like an alien concept to you. Kenny's little pet project on the abolition of the Seanad blew up in his face, he claims ad nauseum he is all for reform but how are people expected to take this man seriously when he couldn't be bothered to debate publicly something he claimed to be passionate about!

There was a dismal turnout of voters and had he debated the issue it would have been a lot higher than 39% whether the result would have been different is another matter.
The Govt. lack any shred of deceny or emapthy as they proved by throwing 13,000 families at the mercy of the vulture capitalists without any kind of legally enforcable protection and are only a bunch of lying, morally deficient, self serving g*ugers.

sparkling sea

So it looks like they'll keep their jobs, I never doubted it because nothing changes here. You can really do what you like and the people just sit back and let you.
I'd hate it but I know all my children would be better of if they decide to emigrate to some where better than here, we're not capable of expecting much at all.

tayto lover

Going Forward wrote: »

The Fine Gael party unquestionably supports Minister Shatter's recent "performances".

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-gael-shows-support-for-alan-shatter-with-standing-ovation-30053693.html

I now really know which party I will not vote for ever again.

Well done, you were given an opportunity to live the whiter than white political promise and you blew it!

There is no party worth a vote.
They all have their black sheep.

Going Forward

tayto lover wrote: »

There is no party worth a vote.
They all have their black sheep.

It's been an education.
But don't allow others to make choices on your behalf by you not voting!

I know they're all the same now anyway. But to be preached at in such righteous tones about how things were going to be cleaned up reminds me of, well, preachers.

Back to the drawing board.

sopretty

I have never voted for the party. I have voted for the individual on their own merits. I have decided on a party allegiance now though.

Sand

Going Forward wrote: »

It's been an education.
But don't allow others to make choices on your behalf by you not voting!

I know they're all the same now anyway. But to be preached at in such righteous tones about how things were going to be cleaned up reminds me of, well, preachers.

Back to the drawing board.

You can vote and not vote for a party. I'd be of the view that a vote for a party is a vote wasted - the TD takes orders from Party HQ only and wont represent you, which defeats the purpose of voting for them.

fr3d12

Enda is 4/7 with Paddy Power to be the first FG Taoiseach to serve two consecutive terms.
Personally I'd say that's down to the weakness of the opposition rather than the strength of the Taoiseach.

Going Forward

fr3d12 wrote: »

Enda is 4/7 with Paddy Power to be the first FG Taoiseach to serve two consecutive terms.
Personally I'd say that's down to the weakness of the opposition rather than the strength of the Taoiseach.

An accidental Taoiseach of two terms, interesting.

The major irony is that neither FG or FF will be able to legitimately pursue the new politics and transparency ticket for different reasons.

SF will hitch their horses to it next time I suppose.

fr3d12

Going Forward wrote: »

An accidental Taoiseach of two terms, interesting.

The major irony is that neither FG or FF will be able to legitimately pursue the new politics and transparency ticket for different reasons.

SF will hitch their horses to it next time I suppose.

None of them are interested in any real reform.
Why would they be!


http://clearandgraphic.wordpress.com/2013/03/10/pensions-for-life-after-two-years-reached-by-tds-also-in-government/

http://clearandgraphic.wordpress.com/2012/10/23/how-td-expenses-can-cost-the-state/

My name is URL

fr3d12 wrote: »

None of them are interested in any real reform.
Why would they be!


http://clearandgraphic.wordpress.com/2013/03/10/pensions-for-life-after-two-years-reached-by-tds-also-in-government/

http://clearandgraphic.wordpress.com/2012/10/23/how-td-expenses-can-cost-the-state/

I'm finding myself to be in agreement with most of what you have said on this subject but using that blog as a source or tool of any sort is a bad bad idea.

Isn't that the one that Jeff Rudd (of DDI infamy) writes?

fr3d12

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm finding myself to be in agreement with most of what you have said on this subject but using that blog as a source or tool of any sort is a bad bad idea.

Isn't that the one that Jeff Rudd (of DDI infamy) writes?

I came across it today while looking at other things so I've no idea of the author, I do remember reading about Cannon and the clocks at the time though in one of the papers but I can't remember exact figures.
As for the pensions I know that to be true but again I couldn't quote figures from my head.

There's no doubt the perks they enjoy are a bit on the lavish side.

There's a -4k difference from this report in the Irish Examiner RE: Cannon.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2012/0411/ireland/junior-minister-claims-2600-a-month-in-mileage-190130.html

rodento

Interesting development

A garda has brought a High Court challenge to a decision by the Garda Siochána Complaints Ombudsman to re-open its investigation of a complaint made against him in connection with a Garda investigation concerning jailed murderer Jerry McGrath.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda-challenges-re-opening-of-investigation-by-gsoc-1.1711196

Godge

rodento wrote: »

Interesting development

A garda has brought a High Court challenge to a decision by the Garda Siochána Complaints Ombudsman to re-open its investigation of a complaint made against him in connection with a Garda investigation concerning jailed murderer Jerry McGrath.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda-challenges-re-opening-of-investigation-by-gsoc-1.1711196

Very interesting development.

IF what the garda says is true and is bourne out in court, it does not look well for GSOC.

"The reason for discontinuance was that GSOC has failed to give consideration as to whether the time limit for extending the complaint should be extended, he said"

Essentially, his defence is that GSOC admitted to procedural mistakes and dropped the case.

As I have said from the start, we can judge when the truth comes out - we are a long way from that yet.

My name is URL

Godge wrote: »

As I have said from the start, we can judge when the truth comes out - we are a long way from that yet.

For someone that's been saying that from the start, you sure are doing your best to resist any criticism of the side you happen to come down on.

So how's about that latest opinion poll?