Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

Options
1…1819212324…91

Comments

  • Options
    #602
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    COYW wrote: »
    Explanation
    Banjo String wrote:
    A disgrace I tells ya.


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-26874242.html

    Mod:

    I issued an on thread warning warning to keep things on topic last night, and that's the reason why, political mud slinging. Stick to the topic please.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Options
    #603
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    That Alan Shatter is an absolute out and out gangster, its a disgrace he is still in his position as minister for justice why aren't we out storming the Dail and lynching these toerags :mad::mad::mad:


  • Options
    #604
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Gringo180 wrote: »
    That Alan Shatter is an absolute out and out gangster, its a disgrace he is still in his position as minister for justice why aren't we out storming the Dail and lynching these toerags :mad::mad::mad:
    Maybe we can start answering that question by asking you - why aren't you out storming the Dail and lynching these toerags?


  • Options
    #605
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Maybe we can start answering that question by asking you - why aren't you out storming the Dail and lynching these toerags?

    Ive went on these sort of marches before and only around 100 people showed up, I think the Irish would rather sit at home and watch Jeremy Kyle and Judge Judy :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #606
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    I suppose I shoudn't be, but I'm amazed at the sheer effrontery of Alan Shatter in concluding his statement to the Dáil yesterday with a criticism of Sgt McCabe for covertly recording conversations with superior officers and the Confidential Recipient.

    As we've seen, the Commissioner's representative refused several times to give McCabe a copy of the letter he read to him. If McCabe hadn't recorded the conversation, he wouldn't have been able to prove what the letter said and that contrary to Shatter's assertions, he had not in fact been directed to engage with the O'Mahony inquiry.

    No doubt the warning from the Confidential Recipient about what Shatter would do to him would have been dismissed as paranoid fantasy if he hadn't a recording of that too.
    I would argue that when Shatter made his "they did not co-operate" statement last October he was confident there was no way this could be disproved as he was not aware of the transcript, If Callinan was briefing him on Mick Wallace he was probably briefing him on the communications between AGSHQ and McCabe.
    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Pretty much nail on the head. The sad thing is when it comes to the next election Irish people are more bothered about the pothole down the road than they are about the administration of Justice. As long as FG are fixing their potholes then dam all will change.

    Our only hope here is that more and more whistleblowers have the bravery to come forward. I say brave in light of the comments of the Confidential Recipient telling the female Garda who claimed she was sexually harassed that the last person to use his service "ended up washing cars in Navan".

    Shatter obviously put Connolly in there so he could scare whistleblowers, not support them as he was supposed to do.
    No TD when assigned a Ministerial portfolio including the Taoiseach should be allowed to still hold a constituency clinic, this gives TD's who under perform on a national level a back door into Dail Eireann when new elections come around, they can be complete failures yet do a few constituency favours and they're back in.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #607
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Gringo180 wrote: »
    Ive went on these sort of marches before and only around 100 people showed up, I think the Irish would rather sit at home and watch Jeremy Kyle and Judge Judy :rolleyes:
    So only 100 people showed up and rather than take that as a measure of agreement with your own position, you prefer to take it as a measure of the complacency of the Irish people.

    If you really want more than 100 people to be showing up at the protests then you need to start to convince people rather than insult them.


  • Options
    #608
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    Phoebas wrote: »
    So only 100 people showed up and rather than take that as a measure of agreement with your own position, you prefer to take it as a measure of the complacency of the Irish people.

    If you really want more than 100 people to be showing up at the protests then you need to start to convince people rather than insult them.

    I am not insulting them its the truth. The marches I was on the rest of the public were looking at us as if we were aliens, when in fact we were standing up for them against a corrupt government. In this day and age its very hard to get a large group of people out marching especially as RTE our state broadcaster that we pay for won't cover any of the wrongdoings of our politicians.


  • Options
    #609
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Gringo180 wrote: »
    I am not insulting them its the truth. The marches I was on the rest of the public were looking at us as if we were aliens, when in fact we were standing up for them against a corrupt government.
    You were representing them whether they liked it or not!
    People don't tend to like that.


  • Options
    #610
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    Phoebas wrote: »
    You were representing them whether they liked it or not!
    People don't tend to like that.

    People would rather complain about those who try to effect change than those causing the problems.


  • Options
    #611
    Floppybits
    Registered Users Posts: 7,558 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    Gringo180 wrote: »
    Ive went on these sort of marches before and only around 100 people showed up, I think the Irish would rather sit at home and watch Jeremy Kyle and Judge Judy :rolleyes:

    One of the reasons why people and turned off marches is because they are often hijacked by groups that are looking to cause trouble or by groups that the ordinary folks on the street dont want to be associated with.

    Like me, I have no time for unions and therefore dont want to be associated with any protests or marches involving them, as they are part of the problem that the state has. I also dont want to be part of these groups that are out to start trouble.

    Another reason for people not marching is that there is no leader to get behind, if you look at any country where there is protests against the government there is always a leader, a person people can get behind, we dont have this at the moment in this country. All our so called leaders be they in or out of government are seeing as been as corrupt as each other.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #612
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    fr3d12 wrote: »
    People would rather complain about those who try to effect change than those causing the problems.
    Because they don't want your change. Didn't you get that message from the low turnouts?


  • Options
    #613
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Because they don't want your change. Didn't you get that message from the low turnouts?

    Your view of why the turnouts are low is very simplistic, often these events are badly organised and few people hear about them on time.
    The only people who don't want the change I'd like to see are the wealthy trough feeders and fat cats etc.


  • Options
    #614
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    fr3d12 wrote: »
    Your view of why the turnouts are low is very simplistic, often these events are badly organised and few people hear about them on time.
    i.e. the organisers are incompetent?
    fr3d12 wrote: »
    The only people who don't want the change I'd like to see are the wealthy trough feeders and fat cats etc.
    You'll be a shoe-in at the next elections.


  • Options
    #615
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    COYW wrote: »
    Explanation

    What the hell has Mick Wallace's VAT got to do with Alan Shatter and the Garda Commissioner being unfit to remain in office?


  • Options
    #616
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,738 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    What the hell has Mick Wallace's VAT got to do with Alan Shatter and the Garda Commissioner being unfit to remain in office?

    It attempts to deflect from the validity of the point being made. People (here and in the Dail) do it all the time regarding SF.

    What I always find ironic about such a tactic is that NONE of the current parties have a particularly spotless past (or present for that matter)


  • Options
    #617
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    What the hell has Mick Wallace's VAT got to do with Alan Shatter and the Garda Commissioner being unfit to remain in office?
    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    It attempts to deflect from the validity of the point being made. People (here and in the Dail) do it all the time regarding SF.

    What I always find ironic about such a tactic is that NONE of the current parties have a particularly spotless past (or present for that matter)

    Already a warning on it, that also includes not responding after said warning.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Options
    #618
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    Phoebas wrote: »
    i.e. the organisers are incompetent?


    You'll be a shoe-in at the next elections.

    Incompetence has nothing to do with it,if you feel you're happy with the status quo then good for you.
    As for your other asinine comment well it's not worthy of a response.


  • Options
    #619
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    fr3d12 wrote: »
    Incompetence has nothing to do with it,if you feel you're happy with the status quo then good for you.
    If the reasons that these protests have bad turnouts is because "these events are badly organised and few people hear about them on time", then isn't it because they aren't being organised properly i.e. incompetent organisers?

    fr3d12 wrote: »
    As for your other asinine comment well it's not worthy of a response.
    Thate's nothing asinine about it. You clearly feel that vast swathes of people are for the changes that you're for:
    fr3d12 wrote: »
    The only people who don't want the change I'd like to see are the wealthy trough feeders and fat cats etc.


    Isn't the obvious solution to put your proposals to them at election time?


  • Options
    #620
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    Phoebas wrote: »
    If the reasons that these protests have bad turnouts is because "these events are badly organised and few people hear about them on time", then isn't it because they aren't being organised properly i.e. incompetent organisers?



    Thate's nothing asinine about it. You clearly feel that vast swathes of people are for the changes that you're for:



    Isn't the obvious solution to put your proposals to them at election time?

    The change I would like to see is more transparency in our political system instead of the spin and subterfuge they are so good at.Does that put me in the minority as your sarcasm suggests?
    Are you against the idea of politicians being held accountable and not being rewarded for incompetence?
    Are you happy with the way things are?

    The logistics involved in organising any kind of march/demonstration is staggering, it's not like organising the christmas party.
    As mentioned by another poster the opposition and or trade unions jump on these things and take over somewhat to fulfil their own agendas so there are many reasons why people become cynical or don't turn up.

    I wont be standing for election but it doesn't make my opinion any less valid.


  • Options
    #621
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    fr3d12 wrote: »
    The change I would like to see is more transparency in our political system instead of the spin and subterfuge they are so good at.Does that put me in the minority as your sarcasm suggests?
    Are you against the idea of politicians being held accountable and not being rewarded for incompetence?
    Are you happy with the way things are?
    I'm not making a value judgement about what you're looking for. Less spin, more accountability, less incompetence, more sunshine and lollipops. It all sounds great, but a bit empty.
    I just think in order to get people really engaged you need something a bit more concrete.
    fr3d12 wrote: »
    The logistics involved in organising any kind of march/demonstration is staggering, it's not like organising the christmas party.
    As mentioned by another poster the opposition and or trade unions jump on these things and take over somewhat to fulfil their own agendas so there are many reasons why people become cynical or don't turn up.
    In this day and age its pretty easy to organise a protest, especially if everyone except the 'wealthy trough feeders and fat cats' are on side.
    fr3d12 wrote: »
    I wont be standing for election but it doesn't make my opinion any less valid.
    It doesn't, but you'd have to admire the people who are willing to put their political ideas to the test.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #622
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    What the hell has Mick Wallace's VAT got to do with Alan Shatter and the Garda Commissioner being unfit to remain in office?

    Mick also broke the law and as such is unfit for office too.
    They are all at it.
    All hypocrites.


  • Options
    #623
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    Phoebas wrote: »
    I'm not making a value judgement about what you're looking for. Less spin, more accountability, less incompetence, more sunshine and lollipops. It all sounds great, but a bit empty.
    I just think in order to get people really engaged you need something a bit more concrete.


    In this day and age its pretty easy to organise a protest, especially if everyone except the 'wealthy trough feeders and fat cats' are on side.


    It doesn't, but you'd have to admire the people who are willing to put their political ideas to the test.

    Sunshine and lollipops?
    You're being trite now.
    You make it sound like these are crazy liberal ideals, this is supposed to be a democracy whereby the citizens shouldn't have to protest en masse for what should be a given.

    Are you a FG supporter?


  • Options
    #624
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    Phoebas wrote: »
    I'm not making a value judgement about what you're looking for. Less spin, more accountability, less incompetence, more sunshine and lollipops. It all sounds great, but a bit empty.
    I just think in order to get people really engaged you need something a bit more concrete.


    In this day and age its pretty easy to organise a protest, especially if everyone except the 'wealthy trough feeders and fat cats' are on side.


    It doesn't, but you'd have to admire the people who are willing to put their political ideas to the test.

    what test?? the party whip test is it?


  • Options
    #625
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    fr3d12 wrote: »
    Sunshine and lollipops?
    You're being trite now.
    No more trite than demanding less spin, more accountability and less incompetence. People don't want vague platitudes - they want worked out policies.
    renegademaster wrote: »
    what test?? the party whip test is it?
    The electoral test.


  • Options
    #626
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    Anyhoo, back on topic - I think they should both resign. Neither will resign voluntarily of course, but it is worth taking a look at both of their positions now and how they've evolved over the last few weeks. They have both undoubtedly been severely damaged by recent events, and I think it is fair to say that in most other jurisdictions, they would be gone. Alistair Campbell's famous 11 day rule would clearly see both of them gone, but that rule applies to English politics - not Irish.

    For me, the most important aspect of the last couple of days wasn't really Shatter's FG vs FF speech in the Dail yesterday - it was how quickly Maurice McCabe responded with his intention to get the Dail record corrected regarding Shatter's statement that he didn't cooperate with the Penalty Points inquiry. This was obviously Michael McDowell advising McCabe and I suspect that it's McDowell flexing his muscles against Shatter. It has turned into a game of legal chess between Shatter and McDowell and my money is on McDowell. Shatter's arrogance has put him in a position where he can't back down, so any findings against him will appear to be a huge defeat. If the SC comes back with a recommendation that a full inquiry is required -it will be perceived as a defeat. If Shatter has to retract his statement that McCabe didn't cooperate with the inquiry - it will be a huge defeat. This has boiled down to a battle of wits between the two largest egos in the legal arena in this country and at this stage has nothing to do with whistleblowers, AGS, justice or even politics.


  • Options
    #627
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    bajer101 wrote: »
    Anyhoo, back on topic - I think they should both resign. Neither will resign voluntarily of course, but it is worth taking a look at both of their positions now and how they've evolved over the last few weeks. They have both undoubtedly been severely damaged by recent events, and I think it is fair to say that in most other jurisdictions, they would be gone. Alistair Campbell's famous 11 day rule would clearly see both of them gone, but that rule applies to English politics - not Irish.

    For me, the most important aspect of the last couple of days wasn't really Shatter's FG vs FF speech in the Dail yesterday - it was how quickly Maurice McCabe responded with his intention to get the Dail record corrected regarding Shatter's statement that he didn't cooperate with the Penalty Points inquiry. This was obviously Michael McDowell advising McCabe and I suspect that it's McDowell flexing his muscles against Shatter. It has turned into a game of legal chess between Shatter and McDowell and my money is on McDowell. Shatter's arrogance has put him in a position where he can't back down, so any findings against him will appear to be a huge defeat. If the SC comes back with a recommendation that a full inquiry is required -it will be perceived as a defeat. If Shatter has to retract his statement that McCabe didn't cooperate with the inquiry - it will be a huge defeat. This has boiled down to a battle of wits between the two largest egos in the legal arena in this country and at this stage has nothing to do with whistleblowers, AGS, justice or even politics.

    It is no longer about the truth then and you are shouting for one lawyer over another?


  • Options
    #628
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    Godge wrote: »
    It is no longer about the truth then and you are shouting for one lawyer over another?

    Since when has this been about truth? From the get go this has been about spin and obfuscation. I am not cheerleading one lawyer over another - that is just your spinning of my comment. I am simply saying that in the battle between the two lawyers that is going on behind the scenes, I predict that McDowell is in the stronger position. A welcome side effect of that would be that we could see a major overhaul of the whistleblowing process and of AGS disciplinary procedures.


  • Options
    #629
    brooke 2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    bajer101 wrote: »
    Since when has this been about truth? From the get go this has been about spin and obfuscation. I am not cheerleading one lawyer over another - that is just your spinning of my comment. I am simply saying that in the battle between the two lawyers that is going on behind the scenes, I predict that McDowell is in the stronger position. A welcome side effect of that would be that we could see a major overhaul of the whistleblowing process and of AGS disciplinary procedures.

    Didn't Michael McDowell have his own beef with the gardai when he was Minister for Justice when news of an attack on his son
    near his house got into the media? My memory of it is that he and his wife were furious.


  • Options
    #630
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    bajer101 wrote: »
    Since when has this been about truth? From the get go this has been about spin and obfuscation. I am not cheerleading one lawyer over another - that is just your spinning of my comment. I am simply saying that in the battle between the two lawyers that is going on behind the scenes, I predict that McDowell is in the stronger position. A welcome side effect of that would be that we could see a major overhaul of the whistleblowing process and of AGS disciplinary procedures.


    It has always been about the truth for me.

    On both this issue and the alleged bugging, I have called for the reports to be published so that we can assess what exactly went on. If heads should roll when the truth comes out, then heads should roll.

    However, there have been a large number of people who have only seen the two issues as having one objective - get Shatter, whatever the cost. Now he is not a very likeable person but he is hardworking and has got huge praise over the years in opposition for his principled views. But those views have also attracted criticism and made him enemies, something which has come home to roost and has been reflected in some of the over-the-top hysterical criticism of him.

    It made me laugh this week when I saw that McCabe had written to Dermot Ahern's office about his concerns, got a response from his office, but Dermot Ahern said he never knew anything about it. Whatever way, Garda issues are being treated under the current government, it is a hell of a lot more open than under any previous government.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #631
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,524 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Godge wrote: »
    Now he is not a very likeable person but he is hardworking and has got huge praise over the years in opposition for his principled views.

    Yet he seems to have nailed his colours (and indeed his political career) to the mast of people who, at the most generous interpretation of his chaotic handling of this issue, have been either lying to him or have something on him. That doesn't say much for his principled views or his judgement. I remember that Shatter had to deny that the Gardai were briefing him on political enemies to leak to his advantage - and the treatment of Clare Daly (who I have no time for politically) was quite simply disgusting.

    I have a growing admiration for this guy McCabe - he's been cynical enough to be a step ahead of the likes of Shatter and Callinan all the way though this. I can only imagine the horror they had when they realised he had taped the conversations.


Advertisement