Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

Options
1171820222391

Comments

  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm not quite sure what you mean by unmonitored garda activity though?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    bubblypop wrote: »
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by unmonitored garda activity though?

    Any garda activity that isn't monitored by cameras with full image and sound recording capabilities.


  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Any garda activity that isn't monitored by cameras with full image and sound recording capabilities.

    You think that every single guard in the country should always be under constant surveillance both audio and visual?
    Bit of overkill perhaps??

    What if the guard wants an ice cream from the ice cream man?

    Two independent offices, GSOC and a garda authority should be enough don't you think to ensure that any wrongdoing is caught?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭h2005


    bajer101 wrote: »
    @bubblypop. After Shatter's speech today you were of the opinion that all of McCabe's allegations had been dealt with appropriately and you seemed to be of the opinion that you couldn't see what the fuss was all about. You don't seem to fathom how grave the Jerry McGrath incident was and why people are of the opinion that this case was not satisfactorily dealt with. Let us move on to another one of the cases which was supposedly satisfactorily dealt with by the unimpeachable internal disciplinary procedures of AGS. Read the article below from The Examiner, and tell me that you think that this case was satisfactorily dealt with. For me, this sums up perfectly why the public are so unhappy with how McCabe's complaints have been dealt with.

    "Failures in Bailieborough assault inquiry were ‘the final straw’

    The case involved a serious assault in a pub in the Co Cavan town.

    It was 11pm when the victim was subjected to a savage beating. He was in Crossan’s public house, on Lower Main St. Two local youths were understood to have been responsible. It is not known what prompted the assault on May 2007.

    The attack continued outside the pub. Most of the assault was captured on CCTV. The gardaí and an ambulance were called.

    The victim was taken to Cavan General Hospital where he was detained for a number of days.

    A couple of days later, somebody showed up at Bailieborough station, and informed officers the two youths had returned to the pub the day after the assault and watched a rerun of the previous night’s events.

    On May 27, the victim came to the station and made a complaint. Sgt McCabe alleges that the man has permanent injuries as a result of what happened.

    The case was assigned to an investigating garda, who was supervised by a sergeant. As station sergeant, McCabe inquired a number of times of his colleague whether a warrant had been sought to seize the CCTV footage. He was assured that the warrant was on the way.

    Over a month later, McCabe asked his colleague directly whether a warrant had been sought. He alleges the other sergeant confirmed it hadn’t.

    Then, on July 6, off his own bat, McCabe applied for the search warrant for the investigating garda. Following that intervention, the footage was seized from the pub.

    In the normal run of events, footage of this nature would be examined in Garda headquarters in Dublin’s Phoenix Park.

    McCabe alleges an application to HQ was made through the local superintendent’s office.

    The whistleblower’s complaint includes all the relevant correspondence.

    The months rolled on but no file was prepared on the assault.

    On November 21, McCabe says he reported the lack of progress to his superintendent. He reported again on December 14, but there was apparently still no movement.

    Some weeks later, a garda called to McCabe’s office and told him the footage had never been sent to Dublin, but had lain in his own locker all the time.

    Days later, McCabe was told by a colleague that the assault victim had withdrawn his complaint. Withdrawing a complaint in this manner was highly unusual, and McCabe says he became suspicious.

    He visited the home of the victim, and was invited in by the victim’s partner. She told him that the investigating garda had arrived at their home some days previously and told them that the case was very weak and he wanted a statement of withdrawal.

    The partner said the investigating garda had been sympathetic towards them, but she became very emotional when it became plain nothing was going to be done about the assault.

    McCabe alleges she said she had trusted the garda because she took him at face value, but in light of all that happened, she was distraught. McCabe reported events to the superintendent, but, he claims, nothing further was done.

    For McCabe, the case was what his complaint describes as “the straw that broke the camel’s back”.

    He says he was left with no option but to resign his position as sergeant in charge of the station. Soon after, he was transferred to Mullingar.

    He made a complaint and the whole case was investigated by an assistant commissioner. McCabe says he later discovered that the assault was only entered onto the Pulse system in March 2008, nine months after it occurred.

    The official Garda investigation found that there was very little by way of negligence or malpractice.

    “While there is no doubt that [the investigating garda] has been found wanting in the past in relation to his work, it is felt by this office that Mr [the victim] contributed largely to the failure in this investigation,” the internal review reported.

    According to McCabe’s complaint, the victim had no input into the investigation after making his complaint, and could not therefore be blamed for shortcomings. The internal investigation also goes on: “Sergeant McCabe refers to this assault as a serious assault, which he [the senior officer involved] deems it not.”

    One way or the other, when the case finally came to court, Judge Sean McBride refused jurisdiction, because he felt the assault was too serious for the district court. A book of evidence was sent to the DPP but the failures to investigate the matter in a timely manner meant that there was ultimately a lack of evidence on which to prosecute. No disciplinary action was recommended against any officers in the internal investigation."

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/failures-in-bailieborough-assault-inquiry-were-the-final-straw-260153.html

    I sincerely hope the man that was assaulted is suing the state for this. Its shocking stuff.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Just reading about the warning a female whistleblower got
    The details emerged during several hours of debate as opposition deputies rounded on Justice Minister Alan Shatter and called on him and the Garda Commissioner to resign. 

    The latest row comes after almost three weeks of controversies surrounding the minister and gardaí. A barrister-led review this week was also announced into claims by whistleblower Sgt Maurice McCabe about Garda malpractice. 

    Sgt McCabe has said that his concerns were not pursued. 

    Fianna Fáil TD John McGuinness revealed yesterday that he had been contacted by another member of the force who had been steered clear of pursuing an allegation of sexual harassment. 

    The female garda went to ask Garda confidential recipient Oliver Connolly to process the complaint but was told that “the last man who used the service was now washing cars in Navan”, the TD said. 

    Mr Connolly then allegedly told the female garda “not to forget his proximity to the minister and not to think that he had not had a word in his ear”. 

    “The confidential recipient suggested to this person that she should play the political game and then she might get preferential treatment elsewhere,” Mr McGuinness said. 

    Mr McGuinness said the female garda was standing over her words and it was a pity the Garda confidante could not be questioned about this alleged conversation as he had been sacked by Mr Shatter. 

    Mr Connolly was fired last week for having an inappropriate conversation with Sgt McCabe in which he allegedly said that “if Shatter thinks you’re screwing him, you’re finished”. 

    Elsewhere, Wexford TD Mick Wallace launched an emotional attack on the minister. He said people were “right to be cynical about politics and politicians”. 

    “This place is a joke. We play games in here, and sometimes these games lead to the unfair distribution of justice or no justice at all.” 

    The Independent TD called on Mr Shatter and Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan to resign. His calls for the Garda chief to go were echoed by Dublin South TD Shane Ross. Mr Ross also pointed out that the top 200 gardaí were politically appointed. 

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/whistleblowers-garda-warned-off-pursuing-claim-of-sexual-harassment-260251.html

    Fair play to Mick Wallace.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    I wonder how the comments from GSOC were delivered.
    Were they given as a threat or warning. Like 'if you try this we'll make sure you end up washing cars' or 'I just want you to comprehend what they'll do to you, should we proceed'


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Just reading about the warning a female whistleblower got



    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/whistleblowers-garda-warned-off-pursuing-claim-of-sexual-harassment-260251.html

    Fair play to Mick Wallace.

    If this is true the Confidential Recipient was out of order.

    May be a pattern in the threat to McCabe re what Shatter would to you, and the suggestion to this lady that it might help her career to stay schtumm.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,477 ✭✭✭Hootanany


    What about the breath test Guard is still on leave?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,586 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    bubblypop wrote: »
    You think that every single guard in the country should always be under constant surveillance both audio and visual?
    Bit of overkill perhaps??

    What if the guard wants an ice cream from the ice cream man?

    Two independent offices, GSOC and a garda authority should be enough don't you think to ensure that any wrongdoing is caught?

    Actually I think they should wear camera's and recording devices for their own protection against claims of excessive force, for evidence against citizens committing a crime and also for protection for citizens. Also Garda force would not have access to the audio and video recordings, that would be handled by another organisation that will have full audit procedures in place in terms of requests for the audio and visual recording for evidence and full tracibility of who accessed the recordings.

    how would wearing a audio or video equipment affect a guard buying an ice cream, the transaction would be recorded and thats it.

    You would think two independent office are enough, actually I think 2 is overkill, however as has been proved over the last few weeks, that does not seem to be case in this country. What should happen is GSOC powers be beefed up to give them some teeth to investigate the guards with access to everything to allow GSOC to carry out investigations. Also there should be no appointments made by the sitting minister, the minister can make a nomination and a policing board similar to what is in in effect in Northern Ireland would then carry out interviews with the nominations and would make the appointment.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    h2005 wrote: »
    I sincerely hope the man that was assaulted is suing the state for this. Its shocking stuff.

    Because of what is going on in AGS, my first thought is that the alleged perpetrator is related to a member.

    I should have no grounds to suspect that, but these cases make one suspicious of the motives of officers failing to investigate particular cases.

    And I have knowledge of local cases where this has happened.

    GSOC can't investigate an allegation from a member of the public unless they are personally involved in the case/alleged incident.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    I suppose I shoudn't be, but I'm amazed at the sheer effrontery of Alan Shatter in concluding his statement to the Dáil yesterday with a criticism of Sgt McCabe for covertly recording conversations with superior officers and the Confidential Recipient.

    As we've seen, the Commissioner's representative refused several times to give McCabe a copy of the letter he read to him. If McCabe hadn't recorded the conversation, he wouldn't have been able to prove what the letter said and that contrary to Shatter's assertions, he had not in fact been directed to engage with the O'Mahony inquiry.

    No doubt the warning from the Confidential Recipient about what Shatter would do to him would have been dismissed as paranoid fantasy if he hadn't a recording of that too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,770 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    It's unfortunately very simple...

    Shatter backed Kenny in the leadership heave before the election (as did Reilly and Hogan) and knows where the bodies are buried (perhaps literally considering some of what's coming out)

    Kenny himself is an extremely weak leader and has EU aspirations. Because of that he's not going to sack Shatter and risk bringing down the government/FG. More likely is Shatter moves sideways in the upcoming reshuffle - when Hogan's reward will be a predicted move to Europe as well.

    The only way this will change is if:

    - The general public demonstrate en masse (unlikely, and even if they did coverage would be minimal given the links with RTE and DOB to the government)

    - LAB walk out (which ironically might actually save them in the next election, but equally unlikely as they won't risk their spot at the trough. It was the same with the Greens last time round).

    What's unfortunately far more likely is this will rumble on for another week or two, then something else will be announced or arise to distract the focus of the "peasants", at which point the whole thing will be quietly buried.

    That's how Irish politics works


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    I suppose I shoudn't be, but I'm amazed at the sheer effrontery of Alan Shatter in concluding his statement to the Dáil yesterday with a criticism of Sgt McCabe for covertly recording conversations with superior officers and the Confidential Recipient.

    As we've seen, the Commissioner's representative refused several times to give McCabe a copy of the letter he read to him. If McCabe hadn't recorded the conversation, he wouldn't have been able to prove what the letter said and that contrary to Shatter's assertions, he had not in fact been directed to engage with the O'Mahony inquiry.

    No doubt the warning from the Confidential Recipient about what Shatter would do to him would have been dismissed as paranoid fantasy if he hadn't a recording of that too.

    Does anybody know what the legal status of these recordings are? If somebody doesn't know they are being recorded, it is my understanding that they can't be used in a court? Will the appointed barrister be allowed to access them?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Does anybody know what the legal status of these recordings are? If somebody doesn't know they are being recorded, it is my understanding that they can't be used in a court? Will the appointed barrister be allowed to access them?

    This isn't a court case, so I can't see why they wouldn't be accessed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,620 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Just reading about the warning a female whistleblower got



    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/whistleblowers-garda-warned-off-pursuing-claim-of-sexual-harassment-260251.html

    Fair play to Mick Wallace.

    Ever since his €2m tax evasion I've had no time for Mick Wallace. But in fairness to him his speech in the Dail yesterday hit the nail on the head. There's were tears in his eyes as he told Shatter that the Dail is a sham and that they just play games in there. As if to illustrate Micks point Shatter sat smirking and giggling throughout it which really goes to prove the arrogance of the man. A woman is dead here and all our Minister of Justice can do is snigger and sneer. It's truly disgusting and yesterday Wallace spoke for the vast majority of decent people on this island.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    It's unfortunately very simple...

    Shatter backed Kenny in the leadership heave before the election (as did Reilly and Hogan) and knows where the bodies are buried (perhaps literally considering some of what's coming out)

    Kenny himself is an extremely weak leader and has EU aspirations. Because of that he's not going to sack Shatter and risk bringing down the government/FG. More likely is Shatter moves sideways in the upcoming reshuffle - when Hogan's reward will be a predicted move to Europe as well.

    The only way this will change is if:

    - The general public demonstrate en masse (unlikely, and even if they did coverage would be minimal given the links with RTE and DOB to the government)

    - LAB walk out (which ironically might actually save them in the next election, but equally unlikely as they won't risk their spot at the trough. It was the same with the Greens last time round).

    What's unfortunately far more likely is this will rumble on for another week or two, then something else will be announced or arise to distract the focus of the "peasants", at which point the whole thing will be quietly buried.

    That's how Irish politics works

    labour walking out will not save them in the next elections, sure didn't the greens walk away from Cowens govenment and look what happened to them

    regarding the media blackout of protests they can't ignore the masses, they can only ignore the minority


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭COYW


    Just reading about the warning a female whistleblower got

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/whistleblowers-garda-warned-off-pursuing-claim-of-sexual-harassment-260251.html

    Fair play to Mick Wallace.

    His performance in the Dail yesterday was nothing short of disgraceful, shouting and roaring like some lunatic. He has some neck passing judgement on other members of the house.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Does anybody know what the legal status of these recordings are? If somebody doesn't know they are being recorded, it is my understanding that they can't be used in a court? Will the appointed barrister be allowed to access them?

    This isn't as court issue but I'd imagine that access to them will not be granted without a good fight.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    COYW wrote: »
    His performance in the Dail yesterday was nothing short of disgraceful, shouting and roaring like some lunatic. He has some neck passing judgement on other members of the house.



    This isn't as court issue but I'd imagine that access to them will not be granted without a good fight.

    explain??


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,620 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    It's unfortunately very simple...

    Shatter backed Kenny in the leadership heave before the election (as did Reilly and Hogan) and knows where the bodies are buried (perhaps literally considering some of what's coming out)

    Kenny himself is an extremely weak leader and has EU aspirations. Because of that he's not going to sack Shatter and risk bringing down the government/FG. More likely is Shatter moves sideways in the upcoming reshuffle - when Hogan's reward will be a predicted move to Europe as well.

    The only way this will change is if:

    - The general public demonstrate en masse (unlikely, and even if they did coverage would be minimal given the links with RTE and DOB to the government)

    - LAB walk out (which ironically might actually save them in the next election, but equally unlikely as they won't risk their spot at the trough. It was the same with the Greens last time round).

    What's unfortunately far more likely is this will rumble on for another week or two, then something else will be announced or arise to distract the focus of the "peasants", at which point the whole thing will be quietly buried.

    That's how Irish politics works

    Pretty much nail on the head. The sad thing is when it comes to the next election Irish people are more bothered about the pothole down the road than they are about the administration of Justice. As long as FG are fixing their potholes then dam all will change.

    Our only hope here is that more and more whistleblowers have the bravery to come forward. I say brave in light of the comments of the Confidential Recipient telling the female Garda who claimed she was sexually harassed that the last person to use his service "ended up washing cars in Navan".

    Shatter obviously put Connolly in there so he could scare whistleblowers, not support them as he was supposed to do.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Pretty much nail on the head. The sad thing is when it comes to the next election Irish people are more bothered about the pothole down the road than they are about the administration of Justice. As long as FG are fixing their potholes then dam all will change.

    Our only hope here is that more and more whistleblowers have the bravery to come forward. I say brave in light of the comments of the Confidential Recipient telling the female Garda who claimed she was sexually harassed that the last person to use his service "ended up washing cars in Navan".

    Shatter obviously put Connolly in there so he could scare whistleblowers, not support them as he was supposed to do.

    why would they, they stick their neck out for the good of the country and everybody in it and even though the country is being shown the pressures being brought down on them from the all powerful elitists we are willing to do nothing to support them or try encourage government to do the right thing!!


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    It's unfortunately very simple...

    Shatter backed Kenny in the leadership heave before the election (as did Reilly and Hogan) and knows where the bodies are buried (perhaps literally considering some of what's coming out)

    Kenny himself is an extremely weak leader and has EU aspirations. Because of that he's not going to sack Shatter and risk bringing down the government/FG. More likely is Shatter moves sideways in the upcoming reshuffle - when Hogan's reward will be a predicted move to Europe as well.

    The only way this will change is if:

    - The general public demonstrate en masse (unlikely, and even if they did coverage would be minimal given the links with RTE and DOB to the government)

    - LAB walk out (which ironically might actually save them in the next election, but equally unlikely as they won't risk their spot at the trough. It was the same with the Greens last time round).

    What's unfortunately far more likely is this will rumble on for another week or two, then something else will be announced or arise to distract the focus of the "peasants", at which point the whole thing will be quietly buried.

    That's how Irish politics works

    Olivia O'Leary had a very good piece on Shatter on Drive time yesterday where she maintained that not only had he backed Kenny but had played king maker for Michael Noonan against John Bruton. There are plenty in FG that owe Shatter.
    She also made the point that Labour where very happy to have him as MOJ as he has a very liberal reform agenda and is a very prolific legislator.
    But he is not personally liked among ordinary members of both parties and knows and is happy with this.

    Enough to keep him safe until this controversy starts doing damage in the polls I would say.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭COYW


    explain??

    Explanation


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Olivia O'Leary had a very good piece on Shatter on Drive time yesterday where she maintained that not only had he backed Kenny but had played king maker for Michael Noonan against John Bruton. There are plenty in FG that owe Shatter.
    She also made the point that Labour where very happy to have him as MOJ as he has a very liberal reform agenda and is a very prolific legislator.
    But he is not personally liked among ordinary members of both parties and knows and is happy with this.
    Olivia O'Leary was dead right - Shatter is safe. Always has been.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Enough to keep him safe until this controversy starts doing damage in the polls I would say.
    Weren't there some polls out at the weekend showing no fallout for the government from this? Most people don't care too much about this stuff - they care about the economy and as long as the government are seen to be doing a good enough job on that front, they're not going to worry too much about what is - to a large extent - a political bun fight.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    COYW wrote: »
    His performance in the Dail yesterday was nothing short of disgraceful, shouting and roaring like some lunatic. He has some neck passing judgement on other members of the house.

    Beats smirking and evading the issues at hand all the same.

    Some passion wouldn't go astray in the house, instead of the robotic behaviour of those peddling the new way of doing politics.

    When was that idea shelved?

    Wallace did wrong, he admitted it, its just money he didn't kill anyone and he built good buildings when he was at it.

    Also lost any hope of government contracts over his consciousness demonstrations.

    He is a fairly apolitical politician.

    Too honest if you ask me, and I'm not a huge fan but can see the wood from the trees.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,770 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Weren't there some polls out at the weekend showing no fallout for the government from this? Most people don't care too much about this stuff - they care about the economy and as long as the government are seen to be doing a good enough job on that front, they're not going to worry too much about what is - to a large extent - a political bun fight.

    I don't know.. I wouldn't mistake a lack of impact on a poll result (which if I recall right was taken before this really kicked off?) as people not caring about it.

    For a lot of people this is merely more evidence of things we all know - we live in a country controlled by a ruling elite, where the entire show is run on a corrupt "who you know/get" basis, and the rules (such as they are) only apply to little people who don't pay their TV license or Motor tax - certainly not to the politicians, bankers and others who ruined the country or profit from the pointless tribunals setup afterwards.

    Unfortunately the ONE thing that successive Irish governments ARE good at is dividing the "peasants" - keep them squabbling among themselves (public vs private sectors, union v non-union, employed vs unemployed etc) so that no unifying force can pull them together and potentially put the gravy train at risk. To further enforce this, they introduce taxation and levies and what not to further keep the people distracted to the point that most have enough trouble just looking out for their own family, never mind the country.

    Then you have the media who are in the pocket of the government (RTE directly as ultimately that's who pays their wages), and DOB's media group (who does quite well out of his contacts as well).

    Make no mistake here folks, the last FF government may have started this "rule by dictatorship" idea where the majority of TD's are there just to make up the numbers, and the REAL decisions are made by the handful around the cabinet table (in turn advised by top-level civil servants who have their own stake in maintaining the status quo), or even just 2/3 (all in the guise of austerity policies to save the country), but FG/LAB have taken it to a whole new level and STILL (3 years on!) take every opportunity to blame/deflect as much of the fallout as they can on their predecessors.

    But.. given all the above (and not forgetting the EU runs the show in the end), what CAN the ordinary man do at this stage? As this entire farce has shown us, the Gardai are completely in the pocket of the Minister and little more than a modern Black and Tans/SS used to keep the "little people" in line.

    I've said it numerous times on this site, but this country is a failed state - corrupt and incompetent to the core, and coupled with the fact we've given away so much authority over our own affairs that I just can't see it recovering.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    COYW wrote: »

    oh right cos what Wallace did in the past really takes from the points he raised yesterday :eek::eek:

    so, listenbing to you we should ignore those calling for change and back to the hilt those currently strangling irish politics, policing etc??

    are you really trying to say let those who've not sinned cast the first stone??


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    I don't know.. I wouldn't mistake a lack of impact on a poll result (which if I recall right was taken before this really kicked off?) as people not caring about it.

    For a lot of people this is merely more evidence of things we all know - we live in a country controlled by a ruling elite, where the entire show is run on a corrupt "who you know/get" basis, and the rules (such as they are) only apply to little people who don't pay their TV license or Motor tax - certainly not to the politicians, bankers and others who ruined the country or profit from the pointless tribunals setup afterwards.

    Unfortunately the ONE thing that successive Irish governments ARE good at is dividing the "peasants" - keep them squabbling among themselves (public vs private sectors, union v non-union, employed vs unemployed etc) so that no unifying force can pull them together and potentially put the gravy train at risk. To further enforce this, they introduce taxation and levies and what not to further keep the people distracted to the point that most have enough trouble just looking out for their own family, never mind the country.

    Then you have the media who are in the pocket of the government (RTE directly as ultimately that's who pays their wages), and DOB's media group (who does quite well out of his contacts as well).

    Make no mistake here folks, the last FF government may have started this "rule by dictatorship" idea where the majority of TD's are there just to make up the numbers, and the REAL decisions are made by the handful around the cabinet table (in turn advised by top-level civil servants who have their own stake in maintaining the status quo), or even just 2/3 (all in the guise of austerity policies to save the country), but FG/LAB have taken it to a whole new level and STILL (3 years on!) take every opportunity to blame/deflect as much of the fallout as they can on their predecessors.

    But.. given all the above (and not forgetting the EU runs the show in the end), what CAN the ordinary man do at this stage? As this entire farce has shown us, the Gardai are completely in the pocket of the Minister and little more than a modern Black and Tans/SS used to keep the "little people" in line.

    I've said it numerous times on this site, but this country is a failed state - corrupt and incompetent to the core, and coupled with the fact we've given away so much authority over our own affairs that I just can't see it recovering.

    even more civil obedience will never fix it that's for sure


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Phoebas wrote: »


    Weren't there some polls out at the weekend showing no fallout for the government from this? Most people don't care too much about this stuff - they care about the economy and as long as the government are seen to be doing a good enough job on that front, they're not going to worry too much about what is - to a large extent - a political bun fight.

    Irish people have always had a curious relationship with the Gardai, respect and tolerance of the guy on the beat, but suspicious of the higher ranks. I wouldn't underestimate what they are thinking about all this and I know FG/Lab aren't stupid enough to either. Shatter is safe for now, but it is very much only 'for now'. This has lots and lots of legs left yet and nobody is safe from the fallout. With Ahern brought into it yesterday, I could even see it coming back to bite FF.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,770 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    even more civil obedience will never fix it that's for sure

    I agree but that's the problem.

    Protest here and you'll either be ignored or jailed, and who wants to take their chances with our boys and girls in blue given the way they treat their own colleagues, never mind the general public.

    Refuse to pay these extortionate charges they levy.. no problem, sure they can just abuse the Revenue to deduct it at source as they've done already with the Property Tax and are already threatening with their Universal Health Insurance scam.

    The ordinary person in this country has had his status eroded to the point of where he is a resource in an economy rather than a citizen of state. Object too much and "we have - very effective - ways of putting you back in your place"

    What is needed is people of power, wit, and authority to lead the charge/change - but most of them do quite well out of the current setup or are tax exiles so it doesn't affect them anyway!


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    COYW wrote: »
    His performance in the Dail yesterday was nothing short of disgraceful, shouting and roaring like some lunatic. He has some neck passing judgement on other members of the house.l.

    A TD standing in the Dail and speaking passionately, representing the people who voted him there. :eek:

    What ever next eh?
    COYW wrote: »

    Isn't he repaying that though?

    Besides.
    HEALTH Minister Dr James Reilly faces the embarrassment of being officially named this morning on a debt defaulters' list for failing to pay €1.9m

    A disgrace I tells ya.


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/reilly-left-redfaced-as-hes-named-on-debtdefault-list-26874242.html


Advertisement