Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

AlekSmart

brooke 2 wrote: »

Well, I guess if you were accused of stealing a computer or had superiors lie about you
in an investigation it would have been your own fault..

Nothing to see here..

I'd say there a bit more to see....

Do we know Why the accusation was made,or Why the Superiors lied ?

brooke 2

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'd say there a bit more to see....

Do we know Why the accusation was made,or Why the Superiors lied ?

To cover incompetence by others?

Wildlife Actor

I take it we all understand that there was nothing whatsoever illegal about McCabe taping Connolly?

Just wanted to make the point, in case anyone thought Connolly was remotely correct in his suggestion to the contrary.

Godge

Love nor Money wrote: »

I take it we all understand that there was nothing whatsoever illegal about McCabe taping Connolly?

Just wanted to make the point, in case anyone thought Connolly was remotely correct in his suggestion to the contrary.

I don't think the issue is that taping itself. If McCabe taped the conversation as an aide memoire to himself, that would appear to be fine under the law.

However, it is the release of a confidential conversation to a third party that may cause a problem. That is complicated by the laws relating to the disclosure to a TD etc.

It is quite likely that there are a number of conflicting laws here and to get a clear guidance on the issue, the courts would need to become involved. It may well be a moot point when we read the new reports whenever they are produced.

Hootanany

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yet another reason for Shatter to resign has now come to light in last Sundays Times. It is behind a paywall so I'll summarise here. Back in 2009 a HSE whistleblower got in contact with Shatter while he was on the opposition benches. He wanted to expose a €500,000 fraud in the HSE in relation to the awarding of contracts for service. According to the whistleblower Alan Shatter showed up at his house and tried to convince him that his best course of action was to use his legal firm as representatives and that it would cost him in the order of €15,000-€20,000 in legal fees.
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1382225.ece
The Sunday Times asked Shatter about the case via the Dept of Justice. They never received a reply except for a letter from Shatter that if they dug any further he would issue defamation proceedings. Their quote from the letter is


The letter that Shatter wrote to the whistleblower ( and which the Sunday Times have seen ) ends with this paragraph. In light of recent events it is truly astonishing-

From my past experience, issues such as the ones being dealt with by you are often not taken seriously or adequately investigated by the Gardaí until they are brought to public notice either in Dáil Éireann or through the media in a manner in which the anonymity of the source of information is preserved, where such anonymity is important".

Thats pretty damning , I wonder why the other papers are not following this?

Wildlife Actor

Godge wrote: »

I don't think the issue is that taping itself. If McCabe taped the conversation as an aide memoire to himself, that would appear to be fine under the law.

However, it is the release of a confidential conversation to a third party that may cause a problem. That is complicated by the laws relating to the disclosure to a TD etc.

It is quite likely that there are a number of conflicting laws here and to get a clear guidance on the issue, the courts would need to become involved. It may well be a moot point when we read the new reports whenever they are produced.

Fair comment, but the taping per se is not illegal. And the comparison with Kennedy v Ireland was misleading.

McCabe would probably not be believed by any neutral observer (I certainly wouldn't have believed it) if he hadn't taped the Connolly conversation. And we saw from the subsequent Callinan statements about McCabe not cooperating, that McCabe would have been subjected to all manner of unsubstantiated accusations if AGS thought they could get away with it.

Going Forward

Hootanany wrote: »

Thats pretty damning , I wonder why the other papers are not following this?

Because it's so parochial, they don't want to give kudos to the Sunday Times, and many journalists in this country are also not particularly intelligent or probing.

Fine for giving opinions on Vincent Brownes show but not for investigating anything half way complicated.

And yes, it is shocking!

Hootanany

It must get out in to the general population Ambulance chasing springs to mind allegedly

sparkling sea

Godge wrote: »

That is not a matter of fact, it is a matter of opinion, an opinion held by quite a number of people actually.

However, until we have the reports, it is not a fact that McCabe explored all other options. It is also not a fact that his allegations are true.

He had opportunities, he could have gone to the inquiry, he did not. Whether that was good or poor judgment is what we need to find out.

I haven't stated that anything is a fact?
Its not a fact that he could have gone to the inquiry from what I could gather ?

hatrickpatrick

Godge wrote: »

That is different to McCabe, how?

McCabe used a confidential Garda report for the purposes of trying to weed out wrongdoing and incompetence. Shatter used a confidential Garda report for the purposes of political mud-slinging. I don't see how the two are comparable.

McCabe didn't do it to discredit a political opponent. He did what he did for different reasons and only after engaging with the system and being frustrated by it repeatedly, as evidenced by the transcript which has been leaked.

McCabe didn't co-operate with the inquiry which he knew was happening.

According to Shatter and Callinan.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/shatters-claims-on-garda-whistleblowers-lack-of-cooperation-in-inquiry-came-from-garda-commissioner-30034549.html

A statement from either of these men has about as much credibility as a statement from Dustin the Turkey at this stage. :rolleyes:

He hides behind the fact that he wasn't instructed, but why didn't he co-operate anyway? That question is unanswered.

Maybe he had good reason, I am not judging him, let us wait and see for the report. If he didn't have good reason not to co-operate, the criticism of McCabe is fair. It may also be fair given the information Shatter had at the time. All will come out.

Firstly, we don't even know that he didn't co-operate. We know that Callinan told Shatter he didn't and Shatter repeated it. See above.
Secondly, Callinan called whistleblowers disgusting. Not specifically McCabe, but anyone who has spoken up about this penalty points saga. There is no justification for that whatsoever.

The only thing we know for certain from the GSOC story is that there is a leak from within GSOC. Next time, that leak may be about your complaint or someone else's complaint. GSOC needs to sort out its own house and quick. I certainly wouldn't go to it now with any complaint.

As for the rest on GSOC, let us wait and see what the reports bring.

Oh come on. We know that GSOC's chairman believes they were probably bugged, we know that Verrimus rated one anomaly as having a close to zero possibility of being benign, etc etc etc. I won't get into this again as it's all been said and it's irrelevant to this debate.
What's relevant is that before any facts were known apart from the original Mooney story in the Sunday Times, which revealed the potential bugging of an oversight body, Shatter's first reaction, his first instinct and his top priority was not to investigate whether this had been the case as a matter of urgency, but to publicly blast the alleged victim for not telling him. This is disgusting, regardless of whether GSOC's offices were bugged or not. A potential crime against a body responsible for holding powerful people to account is revealed by a paper, and the minister for "justice" publicly condemns the alleged victim's actions. There is no excuse for this.

Slick50

Is a garda, who speaks to the garda confidential recipient, subject to the same legislation as the garda confidential recipient? Does that mean anything he speaks to the garda confidential recipient about, cannot be disclosed to anybody else there after? Seems to defeat the purpose of GCR's existence, if that is the case.

take everything

Between the three of them (with Connolly now on board), they've slung enough mud at McCabe at this stage to muddy the waters (to mix metaphors).

And shur isn't Bono himself serenading Merkel at the EPP. Shattergate zzzz...
Media obliges.

Looks like Shatter has survived. There was never any doubt really was there.
Stupid fcuking country.

bajer101

This is interesting:

http://www.thejournal.ie/shatter-inspectorate-report-provides-a-roadmap-for-transparent-penalty-points-system-1356997-Mar2014/?utm_source=facebook_short

Floppybits

This is even more interesting,

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0312/601673-garda-inspectorate-report/

Surely now Shatter and Callinan's positions are untainable?

norrie rugger

Floppybits wrote: »

This is even more interesting,

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0312/601673-garda-inspectorate-report/

Surely now Shatter and Callinan's positions are untainable?

Absolutely "disgusting". Why cold they not just keep it quiet like Shatter and Callinan wanted?

Sierra Oscar

Well would you look at this ...

Irish Examiner - Damning Report Vindicates Whistle Blowers

The 80-page report, to be published today, is expected to vindicate the Garda whistleblowers.

It will bring into sharp focus the handling of the penalty points controversy by Mr Shatter since the publication of an internal Garda report on the issue last May, including his criticism of the actions of those who raised concerns.

Mr Shatter last night conceded the report would highlight “major administrative dysfunction” in the system and a “failure of management oversight”

How does Minister Shatter feel now about slandering the good name of the whistleblowers in the Dáil? They are still awaiting an apolgy.

Floppybits

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Well would you look at this ...

Irish Examiner - Damning Report Vindicates Whistle Blowers



How does Minister Shatter feel now about slandering the good name of the whistleblowers in the Dáil? They are still awaiting an apolgy.

Dont forget the commissioner as well, he called them disgusting.

bajer101

Nice timing. They had this report for weeks and they decide to release now, just before they all head off on their Paddy's day junkets.

Now that the Whistleblowers have been vindicated, will the FG party hacks and other shills who were posting here saying that if it was shown that the whistleblowers were correct, then head should roll - come back and admit that Callinan and Shatter should resign? Will they fcuk!

fr3d12

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Well would you look at this ...

Irish Examiner - Damning Report Vindicates Whistle Blowers



How does Minister Shatter feel now about slandering the good name of the whistleblowers in the Dáil? They are still awaiting an apolgy.

Neither Shatter or Callinan will ever apologise not to mention even think of resigning.Between this and the Flannery issues they are starting to make FF look like choirboys.

Going Forward

Floppybits wrote: »

Dont forget the commissioner as well, he called them disgusting.

It's hard to think of them (Shatter and Callinan) as individual entities at this point.

They're both mouthpieces for each other.

_Kaiser_

Sure there's the AIB debt write-off story to deflect matters until Friday.. by next week this will be all be forgotten.

Don't think the timing of such things isn't related.

norrie rugger

Our lads in government could give Tony Blair's government a lesson in spin

Godge

bajer101 wrote: »

Nice timing. They had this report for weeks and they decide to release now, just before they all head off on their Paddy's day junkets.

Now that the Whistleblowers have been vindicated, will the FG party hacks and other shills who were posting here saying that if it was shown that the whistleblowers were correct, then head should roll - come back and admit that Callinan and Shatter should resign? Will they fcuk!

Still haven't seen the report, only leaked extracts on the RTE website.

Is it the Minister, the Department or GSOC (once again) leaking the report?

gizmo555

Godge wrote: »

Is it the Minister, the Department or GSOC (once again) leaking the report?

It was being claimed by opposition politicians on radio this afternoon that it was being selectively leaked by the Minister's minions to suit his position.

Godge

gizmo555 wrote: »

It was being claimed by opposition politicians on radio this afternoon that it was being selectively leaked by the Minister's minions to suit his position.

Does anyone have a link to the actual report or are we still speculating based on extracts and leaks?

I thought it was to be published at 4?


Found it.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR14000069

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB14000072

Godge

bajer101 wrote: »

Nice timing. They had this report for weeks and they decide to release now, just before they all head off on their Paddy's day junkets.

Now that the Whistleblowers have been vindicated, will the FG party hacks and other shills who were posting here saying that if it was shown that the whistleblowers were correct, then head should roll - come back and admit that Callinan and Shatter should resign? Will they fcuk!

I have read the Introduction, the Executive Summary of the report and the Summary of Recommendations.

From what I can gather, this report is the culmination of a process started by Shatter last year sometime. I don't understand how there is a reason he should resign. There appears to be nothing in the report to discredit him and inf fact because he set out the seven principles last May that were endorsed by this report, he could argue it vindicates him.

Gardai senior management are implicitly criticised for not overseeing and managing the penalty points issue more closely. However, I do not see it as a resigning issue for Callinan - he should certainly consider reassigning members of senior management to different jobs but that is really it.

Waiting now for the next report.

cunnifferous

Shatter just on six-one saying 'I'm interested in problem solving not political point scoring' and saying there are still issues around McCabe taking confidential information from the pulse system and putting it in the public domain.

This from the guy who used confidential information from the Commissioner to score political points against Mick Wallace. He really doesn't do irony does he?

expectationlost

cunnifferous wrote: »

Shatter just on six-one saying 'I'm interested in problem solving not political point scoring' and saying there are still issues around McCabe taking confidential information from the pulse system and putting it in the public domain.

remind me did mccabe and/or wilson actually put confidential information into public domain?

bajer101

Godge wrote: »

I have read the Introduction, the Executive Summary of the report and the Summary of Recommendations.

From what I can gather, this report is the culmination of a process started by Shatter last year sometime. I don't understand how there is a reason he should resign. There appears to be nothing in the report to discredit him and inf fact because he set out the seven principles last May that were endorsed by this report, he could argue it vindicates him.

Gardai senior management are implicitly criticised for not overseeing and managing the penalty points issue more closely. However, I do not see it as a resigning issue for Callinan - he should certainly consider reassigning members of senior management to different jobs but that is really it.

Waiting now for the next report.

The reason why Shatter and Callinan should resign is quite simple. They tried to discredit the whistleblowers and to cover-up the penalty points issue. they were involved in a smear campaign against the whistleblowers who have now been vindicated - of course they should resign. The only way their positions would have been tenable would have been if the report showed that McCabe and Wilson's allegations were false. Because the allegations were true, it means that AGS, under the leadership of Callinan perpetrated a cover-up with their internal investigation. If you doubt that the MoJ didn't try to discredit McCabe, read the letter that was sent by his private sec to McCabe, which tried to give the impression that his allegations were false.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/02/21/the-letter-to-maurice-mccabe/

Gone West

Shatter has a lot of power, much more than his already high political office would indicate.
He has powerful allies, in places you wouldn't guess, and he was promised this job a long time ago.
He has done "favours" for people and has been protected and elevated for that.
He is considered dangerous and powerful and even Enda won't cross him, because Shatter and his friends well have the capability to take down others.

Shatter will resign only if and when his actions start to contaminate the area around him and measurably damage his other allies.
We can see some attempts to change the conversation, a pretty standard tactic, but I think eventually he is probably going to have to resign in disgrace.