Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

bajer101

Another reason why Callinan should resign is because he has lied about his describing the Whistleblowers as disgusting. He released a statement tonight saying that his use of the word "disgusting" related to the releasing of confidential Pulse records into the public domain, and not to the character of McCabe and Wilson. That's a lie. When he was asked by Mary Lou McDonald about his describing of the behaviour of the Whistleblowers as disgusting - he stood over it.



http://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2014-01-23a.19#g697

"Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I ask the Chairman to bear with me for two more minutes. The Commissioner described their behaviour as disgusting. It is a strong thing to say that they have carried themselves in a manner that is disgusting.

Mr. Martin Callinan:
Correct. In the context of the manner in which they decided to pursue what they are pursuing, that is definitely something that I cannot accept at any level."

Fred Cohen

Nice catch that. I wonder did he just read the part where he said "discusting" and not the full transcript either way the important thing to remember is when you're in a hole stop digging.

Another possible slip by the minister today when he said Sgt McCabe released pulse data to the general public. I hope he has

a) proof of this

or

b) a damn good defarmation lawyer

bajer101

Fred Cohen wrote: »

Nice catch that. I wonder did he just read the part where he said "discusting" and not the full transcript either way the important thing to remember is when you're in a hole stop digging.

Another possible slip by the minister today when he said Sgt McCabe released pulse data to the general public. I hope he has

a) proof of this

or

b) a damn good defarmation lawyer

I didn't catch it, @delexical on twitter was first to highlight it. I saw it via Gavan O'Reilly - @gavreilly.

gizmo555

bajer101 wrote: »

Another reason why Callinan should resign is because he has lied about his describing the Whistleblowers as disgusting. He released a statement tonight saying that his use of the word "disgusting" related to the releasing of confidential Pulse records into the public domain, and not to the character of McCabe and Wilson.

In fairness, it's clear from tonight's statement that the Commissioner didn't actually mean Sgt McCabe and Gda Wilson's behaviour was disgusting. Obviously what he was talking about was Minister Shatter's disclosure of confidential information about Deputy Wallace on TV to score political points . . .

bajer101

Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturer of dairy products.

Fred Cohen

bajer101 wrote: »

Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturer of dairy products.

Shut up big nose.

Clearly here however we have two people out of a force of over 13000 .......

Now that the two whistleblowers have been vindicated will any action be taken against the other 12998+ who did nothing?

expectationlost

expectationlost wrote: »

remind me did mccabe and/or wilson actually put confidential information into public domain?

i believe wilson told clare daly about intelligence on the grada PULSE system in relation to her attendance at a particular meeting.
i think thats information from the system that he shouldnt have handed over to anyone.

gizmo555

bubblypop wrote: »

i believe wilson told clare daly about intelligence on the grada PULSE system in relation to her attendance at a particular meeting.
i think thats information from the system that he shouldnt have handed over to anyone.

Wilson and any other guard has authority under section 81 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005 to disclose information to members of the Oireachtas, including Clare Daly.

Fred Cohen

bubblypop wrote: »

i believe wilson told clare daly about intelligence on the grada PULSE system in relation to her attendance at a particular meeting.
i think thats information from the system that he shouldnt have handed over to anyone.

She's a member of the Oireachtas, the Garda Síochána Act 2005 allows for

(4) Subsection (1) does not prohibit a person from disclosing information referred to in that subsection if the disclosure—


(a) is made to—


(i) the Minister,


(ii) the Attorney General,


(iii) the Director of Public Prosecutions,


(iv) the Chief State Solicitor,


(v) the Criminal Assets Bureau,


(vi) the Comptroller and Auditor General,


(vii) the Ombudsman Commission or an officer of the Commission,


(viii) the Garda Síochána Inspectorate or an officer of the Inspectorate,


(ix) the Revenue Commissioners, or


(x) a member of either of the Houses of the Oireachtas where relevant to the proper discharge of the member’s functions,

gizmo555

gizmo555 wrote: »

Wilson and any other guard has authority under section 81 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005 to disclose information to members of the Oireachtas, including Clare Daly.

seriously to give information about the person themselves to those people because they are members of the oireachtas.
do you find this fair?
why should these members find out from individual members what information about themselves is captured on the Garda information site?

why are they different from everyone else in the country?
if you want to know what information is held about you, you have to apply.why should it be ok for any Guard to give information to anyone just because they are in the dail?
he didnt give her this information for any whistleblowing reason, it was private info about her.

gizmo555

bubblypop wrote: »

seriously to give information about the person themselves to those people because they are members of the oireachtas.
do you find this fair?

I don't know whether it's fair, but it's clearly lawful.

gizmo555

gizmo555 wrote: »

I don't know whether it's fair, but it's clearly lawful.

yea but so is superindents or higher cancelling tickets issued under the fcps system, but i think its obvious that people dont think that this should be the case.
so just because it lawful obviously doesnt make it right.


as an aside, i was in college with a current member of the oireachtas, is it ok if i give him information that is on the Garda Pulse system about him??
he is in the oireachtas so obviously its lawful.....
would it be right though?

gizmo555

bubblypop wrote: »

as an aside, i was in college with a current member of the oireachtas, is it ok if i give him information that is on the Garda Pulse system about him??
he is in the oireachtas so obviously its lawful.....
would it be right though?

It would be right if, as the Act specifies, the information is "relevant to the proper discharge of" your college friend's functions. I guess that would be your call.

soda_maker

bajer101 wrote: »

Nice timing. They had this report for weeks and they decide to release now, just before they all head off on their Paddy's day junkets.

Now that the Whistleblowers have been vindicated, will the FG party hacks and other shills who were posting here saying that if it was shown that the whistleblowers were correct, then head should roll - come back and admit that Callinan and Shatter should resign? Will they fcuk!

not sure this site is over run with FG shills but its always been an orge of eulogising when it comes to discussing AGS

constance tench

http://www.donegaldollop.com/2014/03/jobbridge-advert-intern-required-for-penalty-point-quashing/

bajer101

bubblypop wrote: »

i believe wilson told clare daly about intelligence on the grada PULSE system in relation to her attendance at a particular meeting.
i think thats information from the system that he shouldnt have handed over to anyone.

What? You think that this information should only be available to what is effectively a private organisation and should not be made available to our elected representatives? What you are implying is that our police force should be self-regulating and should not be answerable to the public who pay their wages - i.e., a police state.

bubblypop wrote: »

seriously to give information about the person themselves to those people because they are members of the oireachtas.
do you find this fair?
why should these members find out from individual members what information about themselves is captured on the Garda information site?

why are they different from everyone else in the country?
if you want to know what information is held about you, you have to apply.why should it be ok for any Guard to give information to anyone just because they are in the dail?
he didnt give her this information for any whistleblowing reason, it was private info about her.

Seriously, are you really asking this question? Why should the people who the citizens vote to represent them not be privy to all the information? This is how democracy works. AGS is a state body. They are employed by the citizens to work for the citizens. They are answerable to the citizens and the best way to achieve this is to have an avenue of communication open to the elected representatives. This is democracy 101.

bubblypop wrote: »

yea but so is superindents or higher cancelling tickets issued under the fcps system, but i think its obvious that people dont think that this should be the case.
so just because it lawful obviously doesnt make it right.


as an aside, i was in college with a current member of the oireachtas, is it ok if i give him information that is on the Garda Pulse system about him??
he is in the oireachtas so obviously its lawful.....
would it be right though?

There was a huge problem with the system that was in place. Penalty Points were cancelled with no valid reason - often without any paperwork or even a reason mentioned. The Inspectorate investigation proved this. That is actually fraud and by extension, corruption.

As to your second point regarding relaying information to your college mate. You are perfectly entitled to tell him about otherwise confidential information if it pertains to reporting an illegal act in the course of your duty - which is what McCabe and Wilson did.

bajer101

bajer101 wrote: »

What? You think that this information should only be available to what is effectively a private organisation and should not be made available to our elected representatives? What you are implying is that our police force should be self-regulating and should not be answerable to the public who pay their wages - i.e., a police state.

so if someone in the dail was stopped by a guard last week, you think they should be entitled to whatever information is on the Garda system in relation to them? do you think some friend of theirs or a Guard that they know should give them this info just because they are a member of the oireachtas?

do you think that all information held by the Garda on anyone should be released to the general public?
[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]
Seriously, are you really asking this question? Why should the people who the citizens vote to represent them not be privy to all the information? This is how democracy works.

As to your second point regarding relaying information to your college mate. You are perfectly entitled to tell him about otherwise confidential information if it pertains to reporting an illegal act in the course of your duty - which is what McCabe and Wilson did.[/QUOTE]

dont be ridiculous, of course every public representive in the country shouldnt be privy to the information held about such people on a private police system.
are you serious?
thats the craziest thing ever!
do you serious think the Gardai should be giving out information about private individuals in the country? how could you possibly think thats ok???

the info wilson gave clare daly was specific info in relation to her, precisly in relation to her attending a certain meeting.
now can you really justify any Guard telling ANYONE about information held about then on the PULSE sysytem.

K-9

soda_maker wrote: »

not sure this site is over run with FG shills but its always been an orge of eulogising when it comes to discussing AGS

Mod:

Poster has multiple re-regs, lost count after about 100, banned.

bajer101

Fix your post to make it legible and I'll respond accordingly. Otherwise I'll have to treat that post as an attempt to deflect.

A quick response to what I think you are saying is - A member of AGS is perfectly entitled to disclose information to a member of the Oireachtas in relation to crime having been committed while discharging their duty. This has nothing to do with gossiping to a mate. The Whistleblowers disclosed their information to elected representatives having exhausted all other avenues. They have been vindicated. They have been shown to be correct.

Godge

bajer101 wrote: »

The reason why Shatter and Callinan should resign is quite simple. They tried to discredit the whistleblowers and to cover-up the penalty points issue. they were involved in a smear campaign against the whistleblowers who have now been vindicated - of course they should resign. The only way their positions would have been tenable would have been if the report showed that McCabe and Wilson's allegations were false. Because the allegations were true, it means that AGS, under the leadership of Callinan perpetrated a cover-up with their internal investigation. If you doubt that the MoJ didn't try to discredit McCabe, read the letter that was sent by his private sec to McCabe, which tried to give the impression that his allegations were false.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/02/21/the-letter-to-maurice-mccabe/

You have obviously not read the report. There are plenty of reports in preparation that may or may not discredit Shatter and Callinan when their findings are in. This one will not.

Read the bloody thing and don't rely on tabloids for your second-hand rants. Shatter got reports from GSOC and the Gardai (O'Mahoney's report) last May and he was sufficiently concerned to order the Garda Inspectorate to recommend a better way of dealing with penalty points based on seven principles set out by Shatter himself. This is that report, a report commissioned by Shatter to clean up penalty points!! There is nothing in it at all for Shatter to resign about.

In fact, if anyone is really interested in cleaning up the Gardai and making sure they stick to principles they will welcome this report and praise the Minister for commissioning it.

It is only idiots who haven't read the report who will look for Shatter's head. Now that doesn't mean that one of the other reports in the pipeline won't lead to legitimate calls for him to resign but this is not that kind of report.

gizmo555 wrote: »

Wilson and any other guard has authority under section 81 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005 to disclose information to members of the Oireachtas, including Clare Daly.

Only if it is relevant to the discharge of their duties. Telling Claire Daly that she was caught speeding but let off, how is that relevant to the discharge of her duties.

IF the whistleblowers had gone just to the opposition spokespersons on justice and set out their concerns without naming people, that would be lawful.

bajer101 wrote: »

What? You think that this information should only be available to what is effectively a private organisation and should not be made available to our elected representatives? What you are implying is that our police force should be self-regulating and should not be answerable to the public who pay their wages - i.e., a police state.

Are you serious here? Really? You want the Gardai answerable to TDs? Do you realise that means that TDs will be above the law? It is bad enough the way things are without TDs getting the power to tell gardai what to do. Can you imagine Michael Healy-Rae imposing accountability on the gardai in Kerry. It would make what happened in Donegal look like a picnic.

bajer101 wrote: »

Seriously, are you really asking this question? Why should the people who the citizens vote to represent them not be privy to all the information? This is how democracy works. AGS is a state body. They are employed by the citizens to work for the citizens. They are answerable to the citizens and the best way to achieve this is to have an avenue of communication open to the elected representatives. This is democracy 101.

As I said already, I don't want to live in an Ireland where TDs can threaten local gardai. Are we back to the scenario where the TD can roll down the window when stopped and ask the garda which godforsaken part of the country he wants to be transferred to? No thank you to the control of the gardai by criminals in the Dail.

bajer101 wrote: »

There was a huge problem with the system that was in place. Penalty Points were cancelled with no valid reason - often without any paperwork or even a reason mentioned. The Inspectorate investigation proved this. That is actually fraud and by extension, corruption.

They do not call it fraud.

They were called in by Shatter to sort it out so we must praise him for that.

Shatter has ensured for the first time that the system will change. There was no chance of a FF Minister doing this.

bajer101 wrote: »

As to your second point regarding relaying information to your college mate. You are perfectly entitled to tell him about otherwise confidential information if it pertains to reporting an illegal act in the course of your duty - which is what McCabe and Wilson did.

No, he is not. He is only entitled under the relevant provision of the Act to give a member of the Oireachtas information pertain to the Oireachtas members' duties.

So telling a TD you were done for a speeding ticket or you are under surveillance for tax evasion is not allowed. Similarly, telling a TD that their neighbour or colleague was done for speeding is similarly not relevant.

Godge

bajer101 wrote: »

Fix your post to make it legible and I'll respond accordingly. Otherwise I'll have to treat that post as an attempt to deflect.

A quick response to what I think you are saying is - A member of AGS is perfectly entitled to disclose information to a member of the Oireachtas in relation to crime having been committed while discharging their duty. This has nothing to do with gossiping to a mate. The Whistleblowers disclosed their information to elected representatives having exhausted all other avenues. They have been vindicated. They have been shown to be correct.

You are misreading the Act. Let me put it out here for you again.

The exemption is for giving information to

"a member of either of the Houses of the Oireachtas where relevant to the proper discharge of the member’s functions,"

That does not mean telling any Oireachtas member about any crime. It is quite specific. In fact, it could well be argued that if the information is in relation to malpractice within the Gardai, it should only be given to Justice spokespersons and not to mavericks.

K-9

bubblypop wrote: »

dont be ridiculous, of course every public representive in the country shouldnt be privy to the information held about such people on a private police system.
are you serious?
thats the craziest thing ever!
do you serious think the Gardai should be giving out information about private individuals in the country? how could you possibly think thats ok???

the info wilson gave clare daly was specific info in relation to her, precisly in relation to her attending a certain meeting.
now can you really justify any Guard telling ANYONE about information held about then on the PULSE sysytem.

Well the report published today vindicates them.

It's a conflict between the right of individuals to have the record kept private and the greater public good to hear about wrong doing with the Pulse system. There comes a time the public good is greater and more important than an individuals rights.

Godge

K-9 wrote: »

Well the report published today vindicates them.

It's a conflict between the right of individuals to have the record kept private and the greater public good to hear about wrong doing with the Pulse system. There comes a time the public good is greater and more important than an individuals rights.

The report was commissioned last May by Shatter.

That means that every leak since then by the whistleblowers was unnecessary

fr3d12

Had this matter not been brought to the attention of Clare Daly, Shatter and Callinan would still be dismissing them as rogue crackpots, they have been harassed, bullied and subjected to what has been referred to as "Whistleblower reprisals" and not just by ordinary rank and file AGS members but by the MoJ, Callinan and other top AGS brass.
Callinan went back pedalling this evening with his statement about his remarks to the PAC, his arrogance is only matched by that of Shatter and while these men remain in their positions they undermine the integrity of the positions they hold.
O'Mahoney has a lot of questions to answer too, his report on the penalty points issue is in stark contrast to that of the Gardai inspectorate and he is either incompotent and wasn't up to investigating the issue correctly or he sought to cover it up.

K-9

Godge wrote: »

You are misreading the Act. Let me put it out here for you again.

The exemption is for giving information to

"a member of either of the Houses of the Oireachtas where relevant to the proper discharge of the member’s functions,"

He has the right to whistleblow and McCabe considered that was part of his function as a member of AGS.

Given Shatters' behaviour in calling out Wallace on Prime Time, he hasn't made an issue of Daly or anybody else rasing issues in the Dail, I don't think even he would have the gall to do that. He might be subjective and pretty biased to me, but I don't even he would have that audacity.

Anyway, the report has vindicates McCabe, so it's kind of moved on to a different level.

gizmo555

Godge wrote: »

Only if it is relevant to the discharge of their duties. Telling Claire Daly that she was caught speeding but let off, how is that relevant to the discharge of her duties.

I don't know. In general, it would depend on the context and circumstances. All I do know is that despite the contempt and loathing in which the "disgusting" whistleblowers are held by the Commissioner, nobody has been prosecuted for the disclosure of information to Deputy Daly. I think that speaks for itself.

K-9

Godge wrote: »

The report was commissioned last May by Shatter.

That means that every leak since then by the whistleblowers was unnecessary

The report is only on penalty points, not on the issues in Cavan and other matters that have come out, so no, that isn't true.

My name is URL

soda_maker wrote: »

not sure this site is over run with FG shills but its always been an orge of eulogising when it comes to discussing AGS

Yeah.. that's not something that's exactly limited to this site at all. The Irish seem to need to defer to certain authorities. Not so long ago since parents happily carted their kids off to be institutionalised and abused by powers popularly supported by and operating within the state. Shur the Gardai and courts themselves were implicit in it all.

You wouldn't believe how many times people from other nations have voiced their astonishment to me about how we as a society appear servile to the state and its agencies or other establishments.

It's small pond syndrome. Can't be goin' causing waves and upsetting people that might pull a stroke for you someday

fr3d12

The irony in all of this now is Enda and co. will probably claim all these new measures when implemented are part of the political and democratic reform they promised pre-election!

bajer101

bajer101 wrote: »

Fix your post to make it legible and I'll respond accordingly. Otherwise I'll have to treat that post as an attempt to deflect.

A quick response to what I think you are saying is - A member of AGS is perfectly entitled to disclose information to a member of the Oireachtas in relation to crime having been committed while discharging their duty. This has nothing to do with gossiping to a mate. The Whistleblowers disclosed their information to elected representatives having exhausted all other avenues. They have been vindicated. They have been shown to be correct.

Yes I'm not saying the information they gave in relation to tickets being cancelled was unlawful.
But the information given by Wilson to Clare Daly was specifically personal info relating to her attending a meeting. This information was captured on the garda intelligence and handed out by a guard to her.
Are you saying that because she is in the oireachtas she is entitled to confidential info on the garda system that relates to her?
Why should she be different to everyone else in the country?