Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

My name is URL

Godge wrote: »

No, resignations should take place if there is wrongdoing.

If there was wrongdoing? C'mon... Shatter deliberately mislead the Dail regarding McCabe's cooperation with an investigation, and Callinan had the bare faced cheek to call him and other whistleblowers 'disgusting' despite being fully aware that McCabe was telling the truth.

How they haven't resigned yet is mind-boggling. If this was happening in the UK they wouldn't be given the opportunity to bloody resign. Not in Ireland though… where retaining their own positions takes precedence to the good of the state and its agencies. Just like we’ve seen happens within the higher ranks of AGS, the culture of loyalty over honesty wins out.

fr3d12

If Kenny values his credibility he should demand the resignation of Callinan and Shatter immediately.
I hope the outrage and disgust by the general public translates into a bloody nose at the local and Euro elections
The fact that they both tried to cover this up while blackening the name of the Garda whistleblowers is in itself a sackable offence.

It's apparent from the transcript that senior Gardaí receive bonuses, I'd like to know under what guidelines, does anyone know?

I truly hope the political will is there to investigate this in full though I doubt very much there is.
Every case the Gardaí in question were involved with would have to looked at which would obviously be a monumental task.
How senior Gardaí are appointed also has to change.

charlie14

Shatter and Callinan are a disgrace.
They shouldn`t be allowed to resign.
They should be sacked,and a investigation into both to determine if charges should be brought.
If Kenny doesn`t grow a pair of balls and do it he`ll be back to the country a lot sooner than 2016.
Labour don`t have a dog in this fight, so i cannot see them, if they have any conscience, backing Shatter or Callinan.

Smash The House

bcmf wrote: »

I slightly disagree in that this will define Kenny's leadership but this will define the size of Labour's balls.
I know Burton was only holding the fort this morning but they should really have a sit down and have a deep think about what is happening.

Labour are obviously keeping quiet until they see how Enda acts. Depending on the size of this though, it has a chance of improving Labours image if they choose to distance themselves from this scandal and Fine Gael.
This is only going to get bigger and the next few days should be interesting...

Fred Cohen

My name is URL wrote: »

Still doing your best to deflect criticism of Callinan & Shatter / FG :rolleyes:

It's just pathetic at this stage. We know that Shatter has known about these issues for 2 years and failed to act on it. His credibility, and that of the Garda Commissioner is in pieces. FF's have been in pieces for years already.

Not to take away from the seriousness of this but this has been in the public domain for the last 4 years.

http://www.rabble.ie/2014/02/18/silencing-the-garda-whistleblowers/

THE GARDA commissioner has received a criminal complaint alleging that assistant commissioner Derek Byrne physically restrained and falsely imprisoned a garda whistleblower in a hotel in Monaghan last month.
Byrne had been appointed to oversee an internal investigation after a garda made a number of serious allegations against his colleagues in the Cavan/ Monaghan area.
He claimed gardaí failed to investigate certain serious crimes including a sexual assault, physical assault, a case of false imprisonment and hijacking.
The whistleblower also alleged that some officers regularly turned up drunk to work. The garda, who has been moved from his station in the Bailieborough district since he made his complaint, also claimed that gardaí posted information about a victim of domestic violence on Bebo, the social-networking website.

If Micheál Martin was so concerned about this he could have asked Dermot Ahern. Agree that there has to be a clear out at senior management level across AGS and DoJ because if they knew about this and did nothing, they are not fit to hold any office.

Harry Angstrom

If Shatter was a minister in the UK cabinet, he'd have long since been forced to resign. Is it any wonder that Irish people are so cynical of their politicians?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Fred Cohen wrote: »

Not to take away from the seriousness of this but this has been in the public domain for the last 4 years.

http://www.rabble.ie/2014/02/18/silencing-the-garda-whistleblowers/




If Micheál Martin was so concerned about this he could have asked Dermot Ahern. Agree that there has to be a clear out at senior management level across AGS and DoJ because if they knew about this and did nothing, they are not fit to hold any office.

Well put Alan, can we expect Martin Callinan to be the next poster?
Pardon the sarcasm but this thread is about the incumbent Minister and his absolute determination to cover at all times for both Garda malpractice and Garda incompetence.

Slick50

Enda has congratulated Micháel Martin on "doing the right thing", and seemed genuinely un-nerved. He looks like he has been duped by the minister for justice. If Shatter doesn't resign at this stage, I think Enda will have to remove him from office.

Aside: IIRC, around the time Shatter would have been given this information, he was busying himself with legislating for the limiting of hedge hights to two metres.

charlie14

Slick50 wrote: »

Enda has congratulated Micháel Martin on "doing the right thing", and seemed genuinely un-nerved. He looks like he has been duped by the minister for justice. If Shatter doesn't resign at this stage, I think Enda will have to remove him from office.

Aside: IIRC, around the time Shatter would have been given this information, he was busying himself with legislating for the limiting of hedge hights to two metres.

Not the first time he has been duped by Shatter.
Didn`t he back him with the baloney that GSOC were legally bound to inform Shatter, and later had to admit that basically he hadn`t a clue what he was talking about.

Fred Cohen

Slick50 wrote: »

Enda has congratulated Micháel Martin on "doing the right thing", and seemed genuinely un-nerved. He looks like he has been duped by the minister for justice. If Shatter doesn't resign at this stage, I think Enda will have to remove him from office.

Aside: IIRC, around the time Shatter would have been given this information, he was busying himself with legislating for the limiting of hedge hights to two metres.

Don't think he has been duped. I think that they have been confronted by two smart honest men who are prepared to stand up for their principals and do the right thing, at enormous cost to themselves and their families.

I honestly believe they don't know how to deal with a situation where they can't manipulate people because they don't have their own self interest at the forefront of their mind.

Micháel Martin is not doing the right thing, he's jumping on a band wagon and trying to score political points. Mick Wallace did do the right thing by reading the transcript into the Dail record a couple of weeks ago.

Shatter should resign because of what he said.
Callinan should be sacked and investigated to see if any laws were broken in all the cover ups (Boylen, Sylvia Roche Kelly, etc)
Clear out at the top levels of AGS & DoJ because they didn't do anything.
Enda must demand better from his ministers.

fr3d12

charlie14 wrote: »

Not the first time he has been duped by Shatter.
Didn`t he back him with the baloney that GSOC were legally bound to inform Shatter, and later had to admit that basically he hadn`t a clue what he was talking about.

Enda is far from stupid, actually he's as sneaky as Shatter and just because he SEEMED unnerved by the documents/allegations it does not mean he is not complicit, he jumped on the bandwagon with the rest condemining GSOC.The "move along, nothing to see here attitude is a favourite tactic of this Govt.
No FG or Labour TD's on Primetime and none on V. Browne either, they're all too busy with their advisors coming up with BS answers.

Gringo180

Do yous think Enda will sack Shatter?

Harry Angstrom

fr3d12 wrote: »

Enda is far from stupid, actually he's as sneaky as Shatter

Well said. This is the same Enda Kenny who broke down in the Dail last year with his crocodile tears over the Magdalene women, yet a year on, a lot of them have yet to receive their compensation.

fr3d12

Gringo180 wrote: »

Do yous think Enda will sack Shatter?

I doubt it very much, his position of Taoiseach is not in question although it should be and Shatter is one of his most staunch allies in the party.
I hope I'm wrong though.
Connolly is being lined up to be a scapegoat for Shatter.

After Joan Burtons performance this morning Labour should be wiped off the political map in the next election.

Gringo180

fr3d12 wrote: »

I doubt it very much, his position of Taoiseach is not in question although it should be and Shatter is one of his most staunch allies in the party.
I hope I'm wrong though.
Connolly is being lined up to be a scapegoat for Shatter.

After Joan Burtons performance this morning Labour should be wiped off the political map in the next election.

Are all politicians the same in Ireland, cant recall the last decent one in power.

bajer101

It really looks like Enda is about to cut Shatter loose. He sowed the seeds for this over a week ago when out of the blue he mentioned concern about the Oliver Connolly transcript:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-concerned-about-claim-against-justice-minister-622466.html

Since then, he was been watching closely and today's have a choreographed feel about them. Enda not taking questions so that he can't be asked if he has confidence in the MoJ. Letting Labour fumble all over themselves in the Dail today. Appearing Statesmanlike and above politics by thanking Micheal Martin for bringing the latest whistleblower allegations to his attention and assuring everyone that he will take control and act on it. Shatter is gone. Of course, it is all a load of b0llox. Enda had the info ages ago. Events have just taken too much of a head of steam so he has to act - especially this close to the local elections. He saw it coming last week with the GSOC stuff and laid the ground work. Anyone who accuses him of being a fool is seriously deluded. He has been several steps ahead of everyone in all of this. I wonder did he purposely misquote the legislation to give the impression that he got bad advice from the MoJ?

fr3d12

bajer101 wrote: »

It really looks like Enda is about to cut Shatter loose. He sowed the seeds for this over a week ago when out of the blue he mentioned concern about the Oliver Connolly transcript:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-concerned-about-claim-against-justice-minister-622466.html

Since then, he was been watching closely and today's have a choreographed feel about them. Enda not taking questions so that he can't be asked if he has confidence in the MoJ. Letting Labour fumble all over themselves in the Dail today. Appearing Statesmanlike and above politics by thanking Micheal Martin for bringing the latest whistleblower allegations to his attention and assuring everyone that he will take control and act on it. Shatter is gone. Of course, it is all a load of b0llox. Enda had the info ages ago. Events have just taken too much of a head of steam so he has to act - especially this close to the local elections. He saw it coming last week with the GSOC stuff and laid the ground work. Anyone who accuses him of being a fool is seriously deluded. He has been several steps ahead of everyone in all of this. I wonder did he purposely misquote the legislation to give the impression that he got bad advice from the MoJ?

I don't doubt your synopsis but If Shatter goes surely Callinan has to as well and no one has focused on his equally damning role in all of this today.

Charlie Flanagan must be licking his lips, he would've been MoJ if Bruton has won the leadership a couple of years ago, he sided against Enda though.

My name is URL

I'd have a new level of respect for Enda Kenny if he showed the gumption to cut Shatter loose at this stage. It'll obviously never happen...

The whole thing is starting to look like an elaborate conspiracy to give a load of retired judges new jobs!

h2005

They should both be sacked and investigated. They don't deserve the opportunity to resign.

Harry Angstrom

Gringo180 wrote: »

Are all politicians the same in Ireland, cant recall the last decent one in power.

Michael Collins wasn't too bad

charlie14

bajer101 wrote: »

It really looks like Enda is about to cut Shatter loose. He sowed the seeds for this over a week ago when out of the blue he mentioned concern about the Oliver Connolly transcript:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-concerned-about-claim-against-justice-minister-622466.html

Since then, he was been watching closely and today's have a choreographed feel about them. Enda not taking questions so that he can't be asked if he has confidence in the MoJ. Letting Labour fumble all over themselves in the Dail today. Appearing Statesmanlike and above politics by thanking Micheal Martin for bringing the latest whistleblower allegations to his attention and assuring everyone that he will take control and act on it. Shatter is gone. Of course, it is all a load of b0llox. Enda had the info ages ago. Events have just taken too much of a head of steam so he has to act - especially this close to the local elections. He saw it coming last week with the GSOC stuff and laid the ground work. Anyone who accuses him of being a fool is seriously deluded. He has been several steps ahead of everyone in all of this. I wonder did he purposely misquote the legislation to give the impression that he got bad advice from the MoJ?

I don`t think him a fool, but I wouldn`t classify him as the sharpest knife in the drawer either. Whether he purposely misquoted the legislation to give thar impression.... who knows, but really all it achieved was to make him look an eejit and a mouthpiece for Shatter, which as far as I`m concerned is basically what he has been for a cabal who got him elected as leader of FG.
If, and it seems very probable he did, have that info years ago, then he`s as culpabal as Shatter and Callinan.
As for Labour, disgraceful performance from Joan Bruton in the Dail today.

Slick50

bajer101 wrote: »

It really looks like Enda is about to cut Shatter loose. He sowed the seeds for this over a week ago when out of the blue he mentioned concern about the Oliver Connolly transcript:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-concerned-about-claim-against-justice-minister-622466.html

I think that was setting the scene for Shatter to dismiss Connolly.

bajer101 wrote: »

Enda not taking questions so that he can't be asked if he has confidence in the MoJ. Letting Labour fumble all over themselves in the Dail today.

I think you are right, Shatter will probably go, but not taking questions could be giving Shatter time to get home and type his letter of resignation.

Watching Joan getting flustered, with Martin threatening her with "more papers" was a howl.

bajer101 wrote: »

He has been several steps ahead of everyone in all of this. I wonder did he purposely misquote the legislation to give the impression that he got bad advice from the MoJ?

I'm not so sure about this. I think he may have had too much faith in his buddy Shatter, accepting his reports/responses, and repeating them verbatim.

Shatter's real allegiance has been with Callinan in this saga, whilst covering his own back. They were both all too aware of the enormity of this story breaking

fr3d12

My name is URL wrote: »

I'd have a new level of respect for Enda Kenny if he showed the gumption to cut Shatter loose at this stage. It'll obviously never happen...

The whole thing is starting to look like an elaborate conspiracy to give a load of retired judges new jobs!

The appointment of said judges will be made by the Govt and they more than likely will be loyal Fine Gaelers.
For as long as I can remember we have had nothing but tribunals and inquiries yet no one ever seems to be punished for any wrongdoings they committed.
It's just going to be the same old story as the lawyers and barristers laugh all the way to the bank.

In order to do things right there needs to be a complete overhaul of the justice system and how the Gardaí are set up and operate, not to mention our broken political system, none of that will happen, there will be some shapes thrown but the loser in the long run will be the Irish public.

Our politicians for far too long have been all too cosy with the Gardaí.
An equitable policing service is not possible when the head is basically a doppelganger of the MoJ.

BorneTobyWilde

My name is URL

fr3d12 wrote: »

The appointment of said judges will be made by the Govt and they more than likely will be loyal Fine Gaelers.

The Hon. Mr. Justice John Cooke who was appointed to review the GSOC thing isn't exactly free of controversy himself.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?13151-quot-%8037-875-Shares-Acquired-on-Behalf-of-Judge-John-Cooke-13-Days-Into-CRH-Competition-Case-quot&highlight=Cooper+Shares#.UwaadSiz8dW

fr3d12

charlie14 wrote: »

I don`t think him a fool, but I wouldn`t classify him as the sharpest knife in the drawer either. Whether he purposely misquoted the legislation to give thar impression.... who knows, but really all it achieved was to make him look an eejit and a mouthpiece for Shatter, which as far as I`m concerned is basically what he has been for a cabal who got him elected as leader of FG.
If, and it seems very probable he did, have that info years ago, then he`s as culpabal as Shatter and Callinan.
As for Labour, disgraceful performance from Joan Bruton in the Dail today.

Very few of our TD's are of high intellect but one thing they all have in common is their Machiavellian instincts when in a crisis.
If Enda didn't know he is guilty of incompetence, it is his job to have full control over his ministers and to command fear and respect in equal measures from them.
They were just not interested because they thought Callinan would make it all go away and they seriously misunderstood the resolve of Mr. McCabe, only for his tenacity none of this would have come to light.
Not a single TD in Govt. or otherwise has learned a jot from the Morris Tribunal, self preservation take precedence over everything else for these shysters.

fr3d12

My name is URL wrote: »

The Hon. Mr. Justice John Cooke who was appointed to review the GSOC thing isn't exactly free of controversy himself.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?13151-quot-%8037-875-Shares-Acquired-on-Behalf-of-Judge-John-Cooke-13-Days-Into-CRH-Competition-Case-quot&highlight=Cooper+Shares#.UwaadSiz8dW

Sadly not surprising.

donegal__road

Would it be fair to say that Shatter sacked that man for not lying?

fr3d12

donegal__road wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that Shatter sacked that man for not lying?

He was sacked because Shatter somehow thought it would benefit him and deflect blame, there was no need to sack him because his role in GSOC was being wound down.
Hopefully we will hear his story soon.

charlie14

My name is URL wrote: »

The Hon. Mr. Justice John Cooke who was appointed to review the GSOC thing isn't exactly free of controversy himself.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?13151-quot-%8037-875-Shares-Acquired-on-Behalf-of-Judge-John-Cooke-13-Days-Into-CRH-Competition-Case-quot&highlight=Cooper+Shares#.UwaadSiz8dW

Great. We`ve had the spooks, now we`re getting the shady judge, when is the scarlet lady due on stage!!! Jeez, you couldn`t make this stuff up.