When might Eircom to enable vectoring on their eFibre/VDSL service?

AlanS181824

When I rang Vodafone I was told my line could get 85Mb and up and when I actually ordered I was told it could take 70Mb up, maybe this woman wasn't aware of vectoring? When I type my landline into the checker it says up to 100Mb, I am about 400 metres from the cabinet I think I'm connected to if that helps.

PauloMN

Got eFibre installed this morning, signed up to the 70Mb package, but am getting this:


Does this mean vectoring is enabled in my case? Checked the router and I'm on this profile which makes sense given the speeds:
RX:102396/ TX:20478(Kbps)

Am about 100m from the cabinet. Is there potential for bigger increases in future with vectoring?

The Real B-man

My attainable has actually dropped from 101mb to 90mb wondering has vectoring have anything to do with that, on 70mb profile not complaining but hey if my line can handle more and im paying for it so be it

Praetorian

PauloMN wrote: »

Got eFibre installed this morning, signed up to the 70Mb package, but am getting this:


Does this mean vectoring is enabled in my case? Checked the router and I'm on this profile which makes sense given the speeds:
RX:102396/ TX:20478(Kbps)

Am about 100m from the cabinet. Is there potential for bigger increases in future with vectoring?

Yes vectoring is enabled on your cabinet. If you look at your modem stats you can most likely see the "ATTAINABLE" figure to see what is the max speed.

I don't think there will be massive increases possible with the current vectoring technology. Bonding seems unlikely too. So your next big upgrade will be fiber to your door in x years Be happy with your 100m/bit I'm jealous!

ElNino

The Real B-man wrote: »

My attainable has actually dropped from 101mb to 90mb wondering has vectoring have anything to do with that, on 70mb profile not complaining but hey if my line can handle more and im paying for it so be it

Something similar has happened to a lot of us. I think this excellent post earlier in this thread probably best explains why although we don't know for sure yet
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=89940634&postcount=554

PauloMN

Praetorian wrote: »

Yes vectoring is enabled on your cabinet. If you look at your modem stats you can most likely see the "ATTAINABLE" figure to see what is the max speed.

I don't think there will be massive increases possible with the current vectoring technology. Bonding seems unlikely too. So your next big upgrade will be fiber to your door in x years Be happy with your 100m/bit I'm jealous!

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm delighted.... been working from home with a 500kbps upload for the past 5 years - I'm still drooling at having 20mbit up!

Praetorian

ElNino wrote: »

Something similar has happened to a lot of us. I think this excellent post earlier in this thread probably best explains why although we don't know for sure yet
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=89940634&postcount=554

That really is an excellent post and does explain a lot. My attainable only went up 2m/bit even though my snr increased by 4-5db. Still though my attainable is ~90m/bit but Vodafone say they still cannot give over 70m/bit. So there is still some tweaking that's needs to be done, as I'm sure I could be given a reliable 80 or 85m/bits with my stats being so strong. Still delighted with the new lower ping times. Sub 10ms is fantastic.

Nonoperational

pomwombat wrote: »

I'm interloping from the UK - and have been watching the results of vectoring over there with interest, and a little jealousy. However, I registered because I wanted to add something into the recent discussions, where INP values have changed, and ping times have decreased.

Here in the UK, BT are trialling both vectoring (with Huawei) *and* the introduction of G.INP as two separate things.

G.INP is a standard for the replacement of FEC (error correction) and Interleaving, which is normally added to noisy lines. In the UK, our lines start off without the FEC/interleaving setup (ie INP values of 0.0), but if DLM (dynamic line management) detects high error rates, it usually adds FEC and interleaving, by setting an "INP" value of 3 symbols, and a maximum "delay" of 8ms. The addition of FEC reduces sync speeds, while the addition of interleaving adds latency to ping times. Higher values of INP and "delay" can be specified, which will steal more bandwidth, and add more latency.

Looking back in this thread, it seems that Eircom sets INP to 2 or 3 symbols by default, suggesting that FEC (and probably interleaving) is turned on by default.

G.INP works instead by allowing the modems to re-transmit to cope with frames lost by interference. With G.INP working, there is no need for FEC+Interleaving.

It seems that you guys are seeing some signs of G.INP being activated (it says this in some modem statuses, right?), by the INP values being set to strange values of 29 or 30 (instead of 2 or 3 symbols), and by latency (ping time) being decreased.

I wonder if that means you are seeing G.INP being turned on (and FEC/interleaving being turned off) as well as (or instead of) the activation of vectoring in some places? Certainly a reduction of ping times would go along with turning FEC/interleaving off.

If so, then this *might* also explain why you are seeing a reduction in the "max attainable" values...

Over here, when FEC+Interleaving is turned on, the modems report (correctly) a decrease in the sync speed but also (strangely) report a higher "max attainable". When FEC+interleaving is turned off, the sync speed rises again... but the max attainable drops. I don't know *why* that happens here, but it might explain things over there.

Eircoms VDSL technical document states that the VDSL implementation will go like this:



I think we are getting there, but we don't have the precise technical details figured out yet.

If you look at the technical specifications for VDSL (ITU-T G998.4) then it looks like Retransmission(G998.4) has recently been implemented. Therefore it makes sense that interleaving is turned off now too and the pings are reduced and the retransmission protocol provides higher Impulse noise protection (INP). I'm sure the drastic increase in FEC errors we experienced a month ago was some part of this change, and the event last week was the second part.

INP and retransmission from the the ITU-T document:
"Impulse Noise Protection techniques are, in general, techniques used by a DSL transceiver to protect against the effects of impulse noise on the transmitted signal. Existing ITU-T DSL Recommendations specify techniques to ameliorate impulse noise effects. Among these methods are the use of Forward Error Correction (FEC) coding and interleaving.
This Recommendation specifies a physical layer retransmission method for enhancing INP, with annexes specifically providing the details required for implementation of these techniques for transceivers supporting Recommendation ITU-T G.992.3, ITU-T G.992.5, and ITU-T G.993.2."

It is clear now that we have retransmission (G998.4) and seamless rate adaptation (G993.2) enabled from the Eircom technical document. I know Vectoring is enabled for most, but is it possible the people who are reporting reduced downstream attainables have had a delay in vectoring implementation but did have Retransmission (and thus higher INPs) enabled?

Can people with hight attainables check there INP values?

This is very technical, I really think it's just a matter of seeing what happens. Very very few people would know about this at such a technical level.


MBSnr

^^^
Thanks to pomwombat's post it makes more sense to me. I'm a bit late to the party...... So it was a two stage process. Effectively Eircom turned on vectoring the other month before I got efibre installed on the 21/3 - so I didn't see the change, which I'd have liked to have seen. It was running at rx:25.559Mbps tx:7.168Mbps from the outset with a download total attenuation of 25dB (line length ~1700m).

I'm amazed at the profile/speed that I am getting with the assumed cable length I have to the cabinet. Conceivably this bodes well for those on line lengths of greater than 2Km. According to the VDSL attenuation checker line I should only get 18Mbps but I am getting a theoretical max attainable of 53Mbps and a solid 25Mb down.

What I'm hoping is that vectoring allows Eircom scope to enable fibre directly from the exchange, which would make sense for their rural rollout, in addition to street cabinets.

So Eircom turned on vectoring and
SNR dB increased
Total line attenuation decreased
Max attainable Speed increased

The change I (and everyone else has noticed) in the last few days has been turning on of G.Inp. This seems to have improved ping responses but dropped max attainable speeds (as pomwombat's post explains). I'd take the improved ping/latency over a slight drop in Max attainable any day.

OcocO

MBSnr wrote: »

^^^
Thanks to pomwombat's post it makes more sense to me. I'm a bit late to the party...... So it was a two stage process. Effectively Eircom turned on vectoring the other month before I got efibre installed on the 21/3 - so I didn't see the change, which I'd have liked to have seen. It was running at rx:25.559Mbps tx:7.168Mbps from the outset with a download total attenuation of 25dB (line length ~1700m).

I'm amazed at the profile/speed that I am getting with the assumed cable length I have to the cabinet. Conceivably this bodes well for those on line lengths of greater than 2Km. According to the VDSL attenuation checker line I should only get 18Mbps but I am getting a theoretical max attainable of 53Mbps and a solid 25Mb down.

What I'm hoping is that vectoring allows Eircom scope to enable fibre directly from the exchange, which would make sense for their rural rollout, in addition to street cabinets.

So Eircom turned on vectoring and
SNR dB increased
Total line attenuation decreased
Max attainable Speed increased

The change I (and everyone else has noticed) in the last few days has been turning on of G.Inp. This seems to have improved ping responses but dropped max attainable speeds (as pomwombat's post explains). I'd take the improved ping/latency over a slight drop in Max attainable any day.

Where abouts are you? And is your distance calculated from attenuation? If so, please could you post your up and down attenuations, along with your latency, because I think I am a very similar distance to you and I am interested in the comparison now with the recent G.Inp etc. changes. Thanks

GIMickey

My slight drop was 24mb. I can't even get a solid 50mb anymore. My current attainable is 45mb my line is currently synced at 47mb lol.

captain_boycott

MBSnr wrote: »

^^^
I'd take the improved ping/latency over a slight drop in Max attainable any day.

However, my Max attainable upload before was 1.858 Mbps, now I'm only getting 0.9!!! So latency would not be my priority.

I thought the main objective would be to improve service to people further away from the cab!

MBSnr

OcocO wrote: »

Where abouts are you? And is your distance calculated from attenuation? If so, please could you post your up and down attenuations, along with your latency, because I think I am a very similar distance to you and I am interested in the comparison now with the recent G.Inp etc. changes. Thanks

In Galway. All I know is I am definitely over 1Km from a cab. There could be additional attenuation making my line seem longer than it is.

============================================================================
    VDSL Training Status:   Showtime
                    Mode:   VDSL2 Annex B
            VDSL Profile:   Profile 17a
            Traffic Type:   PTM Mode
             Link Uptime:   1 day: 21 hours: 28 minutes
============================================================================
       VDSL Port Details       Upstream         Downstream
               Line Rate:      7.167 Mbps       25.598 Mbps
    Actual Net Data Rate:      7.168 Mbps       25.599 Mbps
          Trellis Coding:         ON                ON
              SNR Margin:       15.6 dB           25.4 dB
            Actual Delay:          0 ms              0 ms
          Transmit Power:        8.4 dBm          14.4 dBm
           Receive Power:       -6.8 dBm         -10.0 dBm
              Actual INP:       30.0 symbols      30.0 symbols
       Total Attenuation:       15.3 dB           24.5 dB
Attainable Net Data Rate:     12.165 Mbps       53.084 Mbps
============================================================================
      VDSL Band Status    U0      U1      U2      U3      D1      D2      D3
  Line Attenuation(dB):  7.3    38.8    57.0     N/A    18.6    48.5    72.8   
Signal Attenuation(dB):  7.3    37.9    66.0     N/A    23.8    48.2     N/A   
        SNR Margin(dB): 15.9    15.6    16.8     N/A    25.4    25.5     N/A   
   Transmit Power(dBm):  0.4     6.1     2.6     N/A    13.7     6.2     N/A   
============================================================================

lmimmfn

GIMickey wrote: »

My slight drop was 24mb. I can't even get a solid 50mb anymore. My current attainable is 45mb my line is currently synced at 47mb lol.

exactly mine drop was quite significant also, from 82-83 to 67-68, but i the max attainable now is rubbish, my actual upload has been higher than my attainable for several days even after rebooting the modem

MBSnr

captain_boycott wrote: »

However, my Max attainable upload before was 1.858 Mbps, now I'm only getting 0.9!!! So latency would not be my priority.

I thought the main objective would be to improve service to people further away from the cab!

Surprised it's that low. How far are you from the cab?

captain_boycott

MBSnr wrote: »

Surprised it's that low. How far are you from the cab?

1.3Km as measured by GPS in the car, but of course the wire might take a more tortuous route to get to me!

Here's my original stats when I signed up a few months ago. Since then I rang Eircom and eventually managed to get them to up speed. Now closer to 15M down, but not much improvement on the up. Attenuation is crazy on one side - do you think it might be worth logging a fault?



============================================================================
VDSL Training Status: Showtime
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL Profile: Profile 17a
Traffic Type: PTM Mode
Link Uptime: 1 day: 5 hours: 37 minutes
============================================================================
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Line Rate: 1.083 Mbps 7.237 Mbps
Actual Net Data Rate: 1.023 Mbps 7.167 Mbps
Trellis Coding: ON ON
SNR Margin: 9.9 dB 20.1 dB
Actual Delay: 4 ms 8 ms
Transmit Power: 3.6 dBm 9.6 dBm
Receive Power: -11.9 dBm -27.6 dBm
Actual INP: 2.0 symbols 3.0 symbols
Total Attenuation: 15.5 dB 37.3 dB
Attainable Net Data Rate: 1.858 Mbps 20.144 Mbps
============================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 12.4 68.1 N/A N/A 27.6 84.3 102.3
Signal Attenuation(dB): 12.4 66.1 N/A N/A 37.3 N/A N/A
SNR Margin(dB): 9.9 9.9 N/A N/A 20.1 N/A N/A
Transmit Power(dBm): 0.4 0.7 N/A N/A 9.6 N/A N/A

MBSnr

captain_boycott wrote: »

1.3Km as measured by GPS in the car, but of course the wire might take a more tortuous route to get to me!

Here's my original stats when I signed up a few months ago. Since then I rang Eircom and eventually managed to get them to up speed. Now closer to 15M down, but not much improvement on the up. Attenuation is crazy on one side - do you think it might be worth logging a fault?

Jut based on reading the posts, a 37dB loss over 1.3Km seems very high to me. My home DSL is 30dB and I'm 2.5Km from the exchange. The calc is fairly accurate on my distance and puts your line distance as 2.7Km. Over double what you think. Sounds like there could be an issue.

The profiles Eircom have are (working from the lowest).
7/1
12/1
15/3
18/5
25/7 - which I'm on with line attenuation of 25dB.

So you're on the lowest profile (originally).

ED E

MBSnr wrote: »

Jut based on reading the posts, a 37dB loss over 1.3Km seems very high to me. My home DSL is 30dB and I'm 2.5Km from the exchange. The calc is fairly accurate on my distance and puts your line distance as 2.7Km. Over double what you think. Sounds like there could be an issue.

The profiles Eircom have are (working from the lowest).
7/1
12/1
15/3
18/5
25/7 - which I'm on with line attenuation of 25dB.

So you're on the lowest profile (originally).

You cannot compare DSL and VDSL attuation.

MBSnr

ED E wrote: »

You cannot compare DSL and VDSL attuation.

So there's no correlation then? I'd have thought there would be some (enough for our uneducated guesses perhaps) considering the same copper pair is used in the majority of instances. What do you suggest instead to base it on?

ED E

Two things to understand:

• ADSL("DSL") is Master Socket to DSLAM in Exchange Building, VDSL is Master Socket to DLSAM in Cabinet
• VDSL uses different "tones" or frequencies, and AFAIK more of them, attenuation is based on frequency so they're all different values

This means theres no real relation. You can be on 58dB ADSL, get 2Mb or so and then change to VDSL and be right beside the cab and have 5dB VDSL down attenuation with 100Mb speeds.

You can also have the opposite where DSL and VDSL performance matches up or DSL is faster.

So the only thing you need concern yourself with is distance to the cab.

MBSnr

ED E wrote: »

Two things to understand:

• ADSL("DSL") is Master Socket to DSLAM in Exchange Building, VDSL is Master Socket to DLSAM in Cabinet
• VDSL uses different "tones" or frequencies, and AFAIK more of them, attenuation is based on frequency so they're all different values

This means theres no real relation. You can be on 58dB ADSL, get 2Mb or so and then change to VDSL and be right beside the cab and have 5dB VDSL down attenuation with 100Mb speeds.

You can also have the opposite where DSL and VDSL performance matches up or DSL is faster.

So the only thing you need concern yourself with is distance to the cab.

I understand there's many factors and basically it's all distance related (if we are talking cabinets). I was on a 4Km DSL line back to the exchange and I am now on a 1-2Km line to a cab. I do know it's over 1Km and I'm guessing it's approx 1700m but I've no other guide except that checker site to give some indication. It's accurate for DSL - that's for sure. If anything it's conservative for VDSL2 profiles, based on my experience.

How does www.speedguide.net/dsl_speed_calc.php work out for your attenuation/distance verses actual known line distance from cab? Be interesting to see if it's correct to some degree for others.

HellboundIRL

Eircom are now offering 100mb on their site, it might be worth ringing now for a profile change.

PeadarB

HellboundIRL wrote: »

Eircom are now offering 100mb on their site, it might be worth ringing now for a profile change.

Just spotted that there now. Telling me that I can get up to 100Mb.

OcocO

MBSnr wrote: »

In Galway. All I know is I am definitely over 1Km from a cab. There could be additional attenuation making my line seem longer than it is.

============================================================================
    VDSL Training Status:   Showtime
                    Mode:   VDSL2 Annex B
            VDSL Profile:   Profile 17a
            Traffic Type:   PTM Mode
             Link Uptime:   1 day: 21 hours: 28 minutes
============================================================================
       VDSL Port Details       Upstream         Downstream
               Line Rate:      7.167 Mbps       25.598 Mbps
    Actual Net Data Rate:      7.168 Mbps       25.599 Mbps
          Trellis Coding:         ON                ON
              SNR Margin:       15.6 dB           25.4 dB
            Actual Delay:          0 ms              0 ms
          Transmit Power:        8.4 dBm          14.4 dBm
           Receive Power:       -6.8 dBm         -10.0 dBm
              Actual INP:       30.0 symbols      30.0 symbols
       Total Attenuation:       15.3 dB           24.5 dB
Attainable Net Data Rate:     12.165 Mbps       53.084 Mbps
============================================================================
      VDSL Band Status    U0      U1      U2      U3      D1      D2      D3
  Line Attenuation(dB):  7.3    38.8    57.0     N/A    18.6    48.5    72.8   
Signal Attenuation(dB):  7.3    37.9    66.0     N/A    23.8    48.2     N/A   
        SNR Margin(dB): 15.9    15.6    16.8     N/A    25.4    25.5     N/A   
   Transmit Power(dBm):  0.4     6.1     2.6     N/A    13.7     6.2     N/A   
============================================================================

You have incredible stats for such a high attenuation - I suppose you must have a very clean line (in the sense of very little noise) - goes to show what can be achieved, even at such distances. Could you also tell me your ping time/latency from a speed-test - we have much the same attenuation and, most probably, much the same distance so I'm using your stats as the benchmark of what's achievable

JWRyan

HellboundIRL wrote: »

Eircom are now offering 100mb on their site, it might be worth ringing now for a profile change.

Just rechecked my line. Used to say up to 75mb as recently as the last few days now only up to 50mb.

MBSnr

OcocO wrote: »

You have incredible stats for such a high attenuation - I suppose you must have a very clean line (in the sense of very little noise) - goes to show what can be achieved, even at such distances. Could you also tell me your ping time/latency from a speed-test - we have much the same attenuation and, most probably, much the same distance so I'm using your stats as the benchmark of what's achievable

Well an earlier poster had line attenuation of 37dB and was sync'ing at the 7Mb/1Mb profile. They then said it was running at 15/1 since they spoke to Eircom. That's also fairly amazing considering the high value of dB and gives hope to anyone hanging directly off an exchange within 1-2.5Km (if Eircom ever enable direct lines from Exchanges). Here's hoping as I'm at 2.5Km....

As I recall ping was 9ms to (Limerick?) from Galway.... It's on a PC at work so I cannot check now.

captain_boycott

Back home now, so here's my current stats post upgrade...

============================================================================
VDSL Training Status: Showtime
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL Profile: Profile 17a
Traffic Type: PTM Mode
Link Uptime: 7 days: 11 hours: 18 minutes
============================================================================
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Line Rate: 0.942 Mbps 15.358 Mbps
Actual Net Data Rate: 0.943 Mbps 15.359 Mbps
Trellis Coding: ON ON
SNR Margin: 9.8 dB 11.8 dB
Actual Delay: 0 ms 0 ms
Transmit Power: 3.6 dBm 9.8 dBm
Receive Power: -11.9 dBm -27.4 dBm
Actual INP: 28.0 symbols 30.0 symbols
Total Attenuation: 15.6 dB 37.3 dB
Attainable Net Data Rate: 1.051 Mbps 19.048 Mbps
============================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 12.5 68.7 34.3 N/A 27.6 84.6 102.3
Signal Attenuation(dB): 12.5 68.1 N/A N/A 37.3 N/A N/A
SNR Margin(dB): 9.6 10.0 N/A N/A 11.8 N/A N/A
Transmit Power(dBm): 0.5 0.7 N/A N/A 9.8 N/A N/A
============================================================================

Topbike77

Could anyone help?

This is what I'm getting via ethernet cable? Used to get 66 down 18 up...

============================================================================
VDSL Training Status: Showtime
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL Profile: Profile 17a
Traffic Type: PTM Mode
Link Uptime: 0 day: 3 hours: 51 minutes
============================================================================
VDSL Port Details Upstream Downstream
Line Rate: 20.477 Mbps 92.155 Mbps
Actual Net Data Rate: 20.478 Mbps 92.156 Mbps
Trellis Coding: ON ON
SNR Margin: 12.8 dB 17.1 dB
Actual Delay: 0 ms 0 ms
Transmit Power: -12.7 dBm 13.8 dBm
Receive Power: -24.0 dBm 0.2 dBm
Actual INP: 29.0 symbols 30.0 symbols
Total Attenuation: 11.3 dB 13.5 dB
Attainable Net Data Rate: 27.041 Mbps 117.968 Mbps
============================================================================
VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 D1 D2 D3
Line Attenuation(dB): 2.5 15.0 21.4 N/A 8.9 19.9 30.6
Signal Attenuation(dB): 2.5 14.2 20.2 N/A 11.1 19.8 30.6
SNR Margin(dB): 12.8 12.8 12.8 N/A 16.4 16.4 16.5
Transmit Power(dBm):-23.4 -15.1 -17.3 N/A 11.1 7.7 7.1
============================================================================

MBSnr

MBSnr wrote: »

As I recall ping was 9ms to (Limerick?) from Galway.... It's on a PC at work so I cannot check now.

Yes 9ms to Dublin (down from 26ms pre G.INP turn on)

SpaceTime

I'm still wondering when eircom plans to use the VoIP services built into the modem they're supplying. There are 2 analogue PSTN ports on every ISPs modem and only Digiweb seem to be using them so far.

I wonder if the ping times are nice and low will eircom suddenly start pushing VoIP instead of using the original TDM exchanges.