When might Eircom to enable vectoring on their eFibre/VDSL service?

bk

airuser wrote: »

All ISP"s are at it again.

This "up to" and the speeds that are never realisable.

Why they cannot give realisable speeds and maintain them.

This is going to make my skin crawl, but I'm actually going to defend Eircom here!!

Back in the ADSL2+ days, they use to advertise it as "upto" 24mb/s, but it was impossible to actually get that speed outside of the lab and in the real world 15 to 16mb/s was the best anyone could achieve, with many getting much less.

But things seem to be very different with VDSL. I'm regularly seeing attainable speeds of 130mb/s in the real world, but the max profile they are selling is 100/20, much less then some lines are actually capable of.

And when you are on a profile, for the most part, you actually seem to get the speed of the profile, if your profile is 70, you get 70, when it is 100, you get 100, etc. Futhermore, when you call them up, they seem to be pretty good at being able to tell you what profile and speed you will be on, before you sign up for it.

While it is still a distance based, "upto" technology, it seems to be a vast improvement over the bad old days of ADSL.

I'm still very wary of Eircom, but so far I've been very impressed by this VDSL rollout and I wonder if they may have finally turned over a new leaf!

ED E

bk wrote: »

Back in the ADSL2+ days, they use to advertise it as "upto" 24mb/s, but it was impossible to actually get that speed outside of the lab and in the real world 15 to 16mb/s was the best anyone could achieve, with many getting much less.

Not quite. Ive seen as high as 22Mb stable sync. Not super common but those who live near an exchange do get a steady 20Mb.


Sales teams can tell you what you'll get if they wanted to, it just seems theyve a habit of selling the package not the prequal. With fibre they may have been trained to give out prequals specifically.

Nonoperational

airuser wrote: »

All ISP"s are at it again.

This "up to" and the speeds that are never realisable.

Why they cannot give realisable speeds and maintain them.

What do you expect they do? The technology is distance dependent. There is nothing they can do, your line determines the speed you will sync at. VDSL is up to 100Mbit. That's just the way it is and the only way of selling it. A lot of people will end up with 100Mbit. If your line isn't capable it will sync at the highest possible speed it can.

When you check your line on eircom.ie it gives you an estimation of your attainable speed for ADSL or VDSL.

bk

ED E wrote: »

Not quite. Ive seen as high as 22Mb stable sync. Not super common but those who live near an exchange do get a steady 20Mb.

Really?!, I had Smart fibre to the basement, with ADSL2+ DSLAM in the basement, and then about max 50 meters across a Cat5e cable, and was only able to get max 18mb/s, so I'm surprised to hear 22mb/s, never really saw anyone put up stats like that before.

Not disagreeing with you, just surprised.

ED E wrote: »

Sales teams can tell you what you'll get if they wanted to, it just seems theyve a habit of selling the package not the prequal. With fibre they may have been trained to give out prequals specifically.

I agree, I'd like to see the sales staff and online checker to give you the prequal speeds, not the package speeds.

HellboundIRL

I contacted Eircom today again and was told that it's still in the testing stage and not all connections are available for upgrade but it would be finished soon.

ED E

bk wrote: »

Really?!, I had Smart fibre to the basement, with ADSL2+ DSLAM in the basement, and then about max 50 meters across a Cat5e cable, and was only able to get max 18mb/s, so I'm surprised to hear 22mb/s, never really saw anyone put up stats like that before.

Not disagreeing with you, just surprised.

Probably external noise sources there. You should definitely have made a 20Mb profile.

I'm not actually sure is there a significant difference between 5e and the 2/4 pair drops that eircom linesmen would fit.

senorcoconut

I rang eircom on sunday and it appears my line was vectored (NTMK, Wicklow)

Here is what they put me on, they asked me to ring back if i had any problems with the latency or stability of the line. It seems to have increased my ping 3ms but other than that it is stable.

Anybody want to examine my stats and tell me what they think?

AlanS181824

Been on hold with Vodafone for 26 minutes trying to order Fibre.

Last time I rang before I got disconnected they said I could get up to 100Mb so Vectoring must have been enabled in Carlow.

airuser

Not sure if vectoring is in use from my Exchange (Douglas,Cork). According to the web test I should get "up to" 50M. I am 300 m from the cabinet in a straight. But, that could go in any direction. 2.2km from exchange.

Good luck to morrow

Airuser

domeld

AlanS181824 wrote: »

Been on hold with Vodafone for 26 minutes trying to order Fibre.

Last time I rang before I got disconnected they said I could get up to 100Mb so Vectoring must have been enabled in Carlow.

It is enabled

lmimmfn

This just gets weirder

Downstream line rate (kbit/s) 51198
Upstream line rate (kbit/s) 19753
Downstream attainable data rate(kbit/s) 69232
Upstream attainable data rate(kbit/s) 17571
So my actual upstream is faster than my attainable

OcocO

I'm in NTMK too so v. interested to see your stats (which you must be pretty happy with). There are plenty on here who know more than I do but, given your attenuation, you seem to be doing very well. Your SNRs are both comfortably over 10 - and you're only slightly off the full 100Mbps download. How far are you from your cabinet?

senorcoconut wrote: »

I rang eircom on sunday and it appears my line was vectored (NTMK, Wicklow)

Here is what they put me on, they asked me to ring back if i had any problems with the latency or stability of the line. It seems to have increased my ping 3ms but other than that it is stable.

Anybody want to examine my stats and tell me what they think?

pomwombat

I'm interloping from the UK - and have been watching the results of vectoring over there with interest, and a little jealousy. However, I registered because I wanted to add something into the recent discussions, where INP values have changed, and ping times have decreased.

Here in the UK, BT are trialling both vectoring (with Huawei) *and* the introduction of G.INP as two separate things.

G.INP is a standard for the replacement of FEC (error correction) and Interleaving, which is normally added to noisy lines. In the UK, our lines start off without the FEC/interleaving setup (ie INP values of 0.0), but if DLM (dynamic line management) detects high error rates, it usually adds FEC and interleaving, by setting an "INP" value of 3 symbols, and a maximum "delay" of 8ms. The addition of FEC reduces sync speeds, while the addition of interleaving adds latency to ping times. Higher values of INP and "delay" can be specified, which will steal more bandwidth, and add more latency.

Looking back in this thread, it seems that Eircom sets INP to 2 or 3 symbols by default, suggesting that FEC (and probably interleaving) is turned on by default.

G.INP works instead by allowing the modems to re-transmit to cope with frames lost by interference. With G.INP working, there is no need for FEC+Interleaving.

It seems that you guys are seeing some signs of G.INP being activated (it says this in some modem statuses, right?), by the INP values being set to strange values of 29 or 30 (instead of 2 or 3 symbols), and by latency (ping time) being decreased.

I wonder if that means you are seeing G.INP being turned on (and FEC/interleaving being turned off) as well as (or instead of) the activation of vectoring in some places? Certainly a reduction of ping times would go along with turning FEC/interleaving off.

If so, then this *might* also explain why you are seeing a reduction in the "max attainable" values...

Over here, when FEC+Interleaving is turned on, the modems report (correctly) a decrease in the sync speed but also (strangely) report a higher "max attainable". When FEC+interleaving is turned off, the sync speed rises again... but the max attainable drops. I don't know *why* that happens here, but it might explain things over there.

OcocO

@pomwombat: Thanks for your informative (and well informed) contribution, and welcome to Boards.ie

AlanS181824

pomwombat wrote: »

I'm interloping from the UK - and have been watching the results of vectoring over there with interest, and a little jealousy. However, I registered because I wanted to add something into the recent discussions, where INP values have changed, and ping times have decreased.

Here in the UK, BT are trialling both vectoring (with Huawei) *and* the introduction of G.INP as two separate things.

G.INP is a standard for the replacement of FEC (error correction) and Interleaving, which is normally added to noisy lines. In the UK, our lines start off without the FEC/interleaving setup (ie INP values of 0.0), but if DLM (dynamic line management) detects high error rates, it usually adds FEC and interleaving, by setting an "INP" value of 3 symbols, and a maximum "delay" of 8ms. The addition of FEC reduces sync speeds, while the addition of interleaving adds latency to ping times. Higher values of INP and "delay" can be specified, which will steal more bandwidth, and add more latency.

Looking back in this thread, it seems that Eircom sets INP to 2 or 3 symbols by default, suggesting that FEC (and probably interleaving) is turned on by default.

G.INP works instead by allowing the modems to re-transmit to cope with frames lost by interference. With G.INP working, there is no need for FEC+Interleaving.

It seems that you guys are seeing some signs of G.INP being activated (it says this in some modem statuses, right?), by the INP values being set to strange values of 29 or 30 (instead of 2 or 3 symbols), and by latency (ping time) being decreased.

I wonder if that means you are seeing G.INP being turned on (and FEC/interleaving being turned off) as well as (or instead of) the activation of vectoring in some places? Certainly a reduction of ping times would go along with turning FEC/interleaving off.

If so, then this *might* also explain why you are seeing a reduction in the "max attainable" values...

Over here, when FEC+Interleaving is turned on, the modems report (correctly) a decrease in the sync speed but also (strangely) report a higher "max attainable". When FEC+interleaving is turned off, the sync speed rises again... but the max attainable drops. I don't know *why* that happens here, but it might explain things over there.

That explains a lot, thanks for the very helpful post

pomwombat

Ta @OcocO

You just managed to make me more jealous too... the post you just quoted from @senorcoconut has attenuation figures almost identical to mine...

I have max attainable speeds of 82/25 (and getting the top UK sync speeds of 80/20), but seeing attainable figures of 110/28 looks rather good! That's around 350-400m from the cabinet.

OcocO

pomwombat wrote: »

Ta @OcocO

You just managed to make me more jealous too... the post you just quoted from @senorcoconut has attenuation figures almost identical to mine...

I have max attainable speeds of 82/25 (and getting the top UK sync speeds of 80/20), but seeing attainable figures of 110/28 looks rather good! That's around 350-400m from the cabinet.

Well you're still doing a lot better than my 30/7 - I'm pleased with my speeds though because I'm 1800 from the cab (based on my attenuation, which I guess is also how you calculated the distance of my neighbour from his cab) - this profile only became available to me 5 days ago so perhaps I'm feeling the benefits of vectoring even at my distance

AlanS181824

OcocO wrote: »

Well you're still doing a lot better than my 30/7 - I'm pleased with my speeds though because I'm 1800 from the cab (based on my attenuation, which I guess is also how you calculated the distance of my neighbour from his cab) - this profile only became available to me 5 days ago so perhaps I'm feeling the benefits of vectoring even at my distance

1,800 metres away and you get 30/7? That can't be right surely! They're great speeds!

OcocO

AlanS181824 wrote: »

1,800 metres away and you get 30/7? That can't be right surely! They're great speeds!

Well, to be completely accurate, I'm on what Vodafone call a "variable" profile, which means that their system re-calibrates my profile based (I think) around SNRs of ~6.5. It does this every so often or if it detects the connection being dropped. Mine is also what their tech guys call an "enhanced" line which apparently means that it isn't shared (although I wonder if that is completely true - despite the low SNRs though, my speeds vary very little over the course of 24hrs so perhaps that suggests that there's some truth to it; I don't know).

The upshot is that, with a fair wind, I will sometimes get just over 30,000 Kbps down and nearly 7,000 Kbps up but, I've noticed, never yet at the same time (although it's only been 5 days yet), so my "30/7" should probably have an asterisk

pomwombat

OcocO wrote: »

which I guess is also how you calculated the distance of my neighbour from his cab

Sorry, I badly worded that. That was my actual distance, rather than a calculation of your neighbour's; his might well be similar, depending on the spec of the copper here and there - BT tend to use 0.5mm on this segment of the network, but have been known to use larger and smaller, and have plenty of aluminium (yeuch).

Unfortunately, it is probably best not to try to compare BT's and Eircom's copper capability. A lot depends on things such as the gauge of the copper, and the two groups probably have different standards that they follow.

However, 1800m would sound a long distance for 30Mbps over here. I'd have guessed at somewhere 1000-1200m if you had that speed before vectoring, and 1200-1500m if vectoring were running (which is my early guess at how vectoring extends range)

OcocO

pomwombat wrote: »

Sorry, I badly worded that. That was my actual distance, rather than a calculation of your neighbour's; his might well be similar, depending on the spec of the copper here and there - BT tend to use 0.5mm on this segment of the network, but have been known to use larger and smaller, and have plenty of aluminium (yeuch).

Unfortunately, it is probably best not to try to compare BT's and Eircom's copper capability. A lot depends on things such as the gauge of the copper, and the two groups probably have different standards that they follow.

However, 1800m would sound a long distance for 30Mbps over here. I'd have guessed at somewhere 1000-1200m if you had that speed before vectoring, and 1200-1500m if vectoring were running (which is my early guess at how vectoring extends range)

I'm pleasantly surprised too - I've looked at charts that suggest just what you've outlined. A very helpful (and seemingly knowledgeable) Eircom engineer who was here a couple of months ago calculated my distance, which gave me some confidence in the figure, but he may have been off the mark a bit. Mine is an old house so possibly the gauge and purity of the copper they used when the line was installed is in my favour, I not sure... I ain't complaining though

MBSnr

OcocO wrote: »

I'm pleasantly surprised too - I've looked at charts that suggest just what you've outlined. A very helpful (and seemingly knowledgeable) Eircom engineer who was here a couple of months ago calculated my distance, which gave me some confidence in the figure, but he may have been off the mark a bit. Mine is an old house so possibly the gauge and purity of the copper they used when the line was installed is in my favour, I not sure... I ain't complaining though

I'm pleasantly surprised about the distance vs speed as well! It seems that VDSL2 has a better reach than most expected - much more comparable to ADSL2 as you get further in distance (and better if based on the attenuation checkers for ADSL2) . From my experience it appears that Eircom initially only fibre enabled anyone up to 1Km and our company couldn't get it. That changed as they extended the reach out to 2Km and based on my line attenuation I'm at 1700m with 25/7 but a net attainable of 50/12. Although there are street cabinets closer than that distance to me, according to the Eircom engineer the cable in the ducting from the business park doesn't run directly, hence the greater distance.

OcocO

MBSnr wrote: »

I'm pleasantly surprised about the distance vs speed as well! It seems that VDSL2 has a better reach than most expected - much more comparable to ADSL2 as you get further in distance (and better if based on the attenuation checkers for ADSL2) . From my experience it appears that Eircom initially only fibre enabled anyone up to 1Km and our company couldn't get it. That changed as they extended the reach out to 2Km and based on my line attenuation I'm at 1700m with 25/7 but a net attainable of 50/12. Although there are street cabinets closer than that distance to me, according to the Eircom engineer the cable in the ducting from the business park doesn't run directly, hence the greater distance.

Yes, those are remarkably high net attainables for the distance! Have you tried Eircom to see if they'll put you on a slightly higher profile?

MBSnr

pomwombat wrote: »

Sorry, I badly worded that. That was my actual distance, rather than a calculation of your neighbour's; his might well be similar, depending on the spec of the copper here and there - BT tend to use 0.5mm on this segment of the network, but have been known to use larger and smaller, and have plenty of aluminium (yeuch).

Unfortunately, it is probably best not to try to compare BT's and Eircom's copper capability. A lot depends on things such as the gauge of the copper, and the two groups probably have different standards that they follow.
.
.

Some of Eircom's cabling out there must be very old and antiquated - esp. in rural areas. I wonder if that's a good thing though? It'll be larger gauge copper no doubt but who knows what the quality is like with the number of splits and joints...

Having said that, I compared the distance/attenuation on my home DSL over rural cabling with an online checker and the dB loss I get seems lower than the average the checker uses. Of course I could make many incorrect assumptions here, but even with the number of joins, the dB loss over that cable length, in a rural area, seems very reasonable.

SpaceTime

pomwombat wrote: »

Sorry, I badly worded that. That was my actual distance, rather than a calculation of your neighbour's; his might well be similar, depending on the spec of the copper here and there - BT tend to use 0.5mm on this segment of the network, but have been known to use larger and smaller, and have plenty of aluminium (yeuch).

Unfortunately, it is probably best not to try to compare BT's and Eircom's copper capability. A lot depends on things such as the gauge of the copper, and the two groups probably have different standards that they follow.

However, 1800m would sound a long distance for 30Mbps over here. I'd have guessed at somewhere 1000-1200m if you had that speed before vectoring, and 1200-1500m if vectoring were running (which is my early guess at how vectoring extends range)

According to their wholesale documents, eircom use 0.4, 0.5 and 0.6mm gauge solid copper twisted pair.

The attenuation on the 0.6 is significantly lower.

With ADSL here the issues have mostly been about line length, not quality.

I think people are being surprised at just how good the local loops are when they're not running back over 3km+ of underground cables to the exchange.

There are big issues in the US with aluminium and other materials in the local loop.

You also had a LOT of DIY and building contractor extension wiring here on inappropriate materials, especially where it was done before CAT5 etc was commonly available.

Unlike BT, eircom & its predecessor never really worried about your internal wiring. The exchanges don't mind which polarity the line is in and it's a simple 2-wire system without the complications of ringer shunt wires etc used in the UK (and some other EU countries like France).

The result of the DIY was a lot of homes with speaker wire, bell wire and I've even seen 230v connectors used to join phone wiring. (Mostly 1980-90s when DSL wasn't around and when proper phone/data wiring materials weren't easy to come by - no Amazon, no online shopping just your local hardware stores)

Eircom is putting that right by installing a central VDSL splitter socket that isolates all internal wiring from the DSL signals.

I know in a lot of cases people are opting to ditch all or most of their old extensions as most people just use DECT cordless setups these days.

But, all in all its a far cleaner setup than anything else. Similar level of thought and care to an ISDN line installation.

MBSnr

OcocO wrote: »

Yes, those are remarkably high net attainables for the distance! Have you tried Eircom to see if they'll put you on a slightly higher profile?

The massive irony is the line is a backup for our primary circuit at the office and therefore under used.... If it was my home connection, I'd have been on the phone already!

Nonoperational

I think I may have some idea what is going on... but could be completely incorrect.

It looks like before vectoring was enabled I was on a stable 50Mbit profile. Since vectoring has been enable I have been change to a rate adaptive profile with Seamless Rate Adaptation enabled (possible as part of the vectoring update). It looks like the seamless rate adaption is configured to have a target SNR of 10db, which in my opinion is too high. It would also explain why the ping reduced if my line changed from a "stable profile" to a rate adaptive "high speed" profile.

I have asked Vodafone to see if they can change it so that my SNR target i 6.5db as opposed to 10db. Failing that I may ask them to put me on a "stable" 60Mbit profile, however I will probably loose my low pings with that.

fat-tony

@NonOperational - you have sold out:D
I remember way back - wait, it was only a month or two ago, when you said you were blissfully happy with your new fibre installation! Now, you're in the greedy "grab as much as you can" download, camp :P

senorcoconut

OcocO wrote: »

I'm in NTMK too so v. interested to see your stats (which you must be pretty happy with). There are plenty on here who know more than I do but, given your attenuation, you seem to be doing very well. Your SNRs are both comfortably over 10 - and you're only slightly off the full 100Mbps download. How far are you from your cabinet?

I'm about 300m-400m away from the cab, we have a newer cable from the pole to the house we got when our ADSL was flakey, and from the termination point on the house into one of the rooms is new cabling we did ourselves, just telecom grade cable. we don't use the inside wiring because it's not worth a ****e. All that might be helping a little but yeah very happy with those speed.

Nonoperational

fat-tony wrote: »

@NonOperational - you have sold out:D
I remember way back - wait, it was only a month or two ago, when you said you were blissfully happy with your new fibre installation! Now, you're in the greedy "grab as much as you can" download, camp :P

Ha ha. I am indeed happy but who doesn't want some more speed!