Sickened while stalking

luvhuntin

Any true hunter knows that banning the selling of Deer will have an immediate effect on the Deer population but when you sell it for commercial gain you are blinded by greed and will not admit to this. Yes go catch the poachers but as I said in my first post if a man is shooting 100/200+ deer in a season is this not worse than the "Poachers" and for Fallow01 will you please state wether or not there is a sitting committee member on the WDAI that claims, boasts to shoot these numbers???? Its a simple YES or NO.
On the basis that every time I ask the WDAI or any of the organisations for that matter an awkward question they find it easier to just ignore and it will go away Ill expect no response like you didnt reply to me about the trained hunter course question I put to you.

Hillhunter

Lotharmike wrote: »

Said it before & I will say it again make it illegal to sell all wild deer for 10 years, poaching would cease over night.There are plenty of charities who would take any spare carcasses from a deer licence holder who shoots more than he needs.I know of lads legitimately(Licence holders) taking 100-200 a season.Absolute disgrace imo I would question anyone returning them numbers as to HOW you can shoot that many legally.The days are coming when the licence will command a hefty fee,if used to serve for conservation of the national herd & stamp out this disgusting behavior I personally would gladly
pay it.All the posts here raise very valid concerns but I bet any organisation who does not involve the farmers/landowners are wasting their time.Farmers want Deer gone.Simple, combat that and you might get somewhere .

I fully agree with lotharmike , but where do we start?, who do we talk too? we can stay adding onto this thread until the cows come home, can someone lead us in the right direction to solve the issue. The main issues still are how do we presserve our deer, how do we combat poaching and how do we stop the greed among the licensed stalkers.

luvhuntin

its going to be easier said than done unfortunately. When I first got into hunting there was always a few people selling Deer but nothing major as far as I could see-there was always a bit of poaching going on too like ithere has been for centuries and everything seemed ok. I could be completely wrong but since 2007 and the economic collapse I have seen a lot of people getting into Deer shooting(not Hunting) because there was money to be made on it. Once theres a sniff about money to be made then it takes off like wildfire and is getting worse. The obvious solution to me is an overnight ban on selling for at least a year followed by a detailed look at returns etc but lets not fool ourselves either-there is an obvious demand for venison so its probably not fair or possible to look for a complete ban-There is also some large estates that need to cull large numbers. The other problem is the way in which we declare our returns. its only a figure on paper so if someone did shoot 200 and put down 20 how will anyone know? even if you got the game dealers to cooperate and submit their returns theres still ways around it. One suggestion I heard that was interesting was that the Game dealer give out a certificate for every Deer that was handed in that the hunter had to hand into the revenue commissioners at the end of the year to redeem.A detailed list could then be published of all names and numbers. On handing in the Deer you have to state the exact location the deer was shot. This would allow for far more accurate Cull numbers and I would imagine deter a few people selling big quantities. For estates that do cull and sell commercially this shouldnt be a problem. Maybe its a mad idea but I think there might be something there

Cass

I don't mean this in a flippant way, but i've always wondered how poachers and people shooting hundreds of deer do it.

I've spent more time than ever out this year all the way up to December. Minimum of 3 times a week, and up to every day some weeks. I've gotten a total of three deer. It has been a bad year granted as my usual total for this time of year is around 6 or 7. Normally i end the season on 9 -12 depending on how much i want.

Now i've seen loads more, but for one reason or another never shot them. How much time are these people putting into it. Poachers i assume are shooting all around, day and night, on land they have no permission for, etc. For the legit shooter that shoots hundreds, well how? Does the land they shoot on support this type of shooting every year? If they are shooting 200+ per year/season well that's more than one a day or 3-4 each day on the weekend. So how do they have the time for it? Are they working as part of a syndicate or a "team event". IOW taking shifts with another on the same land?

As per all rumors you dismiss them but one that stuck in my mind was a person i was told of (and actually know, but not well) that shoots during the day, and has a partner collect later on. This person has the license, rifle, permissions (for the most part). That's not stalking, that's a business if it's true.

grassroot1

The American Bison almost disappeared in a similar situation to what is occurring with deer in Ireland.

Cass

This year has been the worst i've seen. Since November you'd think someone turned a switch and the deer disappeared. I can only attribute it to poaching as the lands i shoot are not "hunter heavy". IOW the land owners are very cautious about who they give permission to and the amount of lads on their land. It took me 7 years to get permission off one lad even though i was shooting all around his lands.

The saddening thought i always have, and i don't want to blow it out of proportion, is if my young lad has to see deer in books because there are none left on the mountains/lands i shoot.

I've said it a couple of times on this thread, and mentioned it before on previous threads. Poaching is one aspect. Improper deer management is another, and greed from legitimate shooters is the last. It's not just a case of get rid of the poachers and all is grand.

luvhuntin

One of my fears out of all of this is that if the various societies keep bleating on about "Poaching" being the whole reason for the decline in numbers and then look at all the convictions we see. its going to make little difference to the Deer population if as you say Cass Legitimate Deer hunters shooting massive numbers is not addressed also. It could all lead to a possible outright ban in some areas.

Hillhunter

Again all valid points but what the hell can we do ?

luvhuntin

Hillhunter wrote: »

Again all valid points but what the hell can we do ?

Why not start a new thread asking everyone for their opinions and also invite a representative from all the organisations to participate and answer any questions? If they are serious about a sustainable and long term solution and have nothing to hide they will jump at the chance

Hillhunter

luvhuntin wrote: »

Why not start a new thread asking everyone for their opinions and also invite a representative from all the organisations to participate and answer any questions? If they are serious about a sustainable and long term solution and have nothing to hide they will jump at the chance

Good place to start

PL05

There must be a serious amount of deer being taken by lads with lurcher type dogs also. i,v heard the rumours about lads taken 3-4 deer a night with these dogs and have also heard stories that deer are being left where they,re killed. Have any of you lads heard of anything like this happening in your areas?. maybe this is another area to be looked into as it seems a lot of lads have these dogs. Might be a hard one to prove though as other lads also use these dogs for genuine reasons [i guess] not sure what the law is Re this.

welsummer

I have been watching this post with interest, and I think there is a bit of mass hysteria going on with people saying that deer number are so much in decline that soon there will be none left.
Yes, deer number are down, but then a few years ago deer numbers had rise to nearly plague proportions and no matter what your hunting skills you were nearly always guaranteed a successful outing or at least the opportunity of firing a shot. For the people that had taken leases, all they had to do was turn up and ponder about which deer they were going to take.There are still plenty of deer about and the farmers are still complaining about damage, but not as much. Deer are still there, but you are just going to have to work harder to get them. Maybe I am spoiled with the ground that I have, as I was out about a week ago and just at last light I had about 20 doe's and calves all round me. Out a few nights later on another bit of ground and I seen 3 animals with only seconds to go of last shooting light. I am not the only one shoot this ground.Deer are a lot more jumpy and are coming out much later and running back to the forestry before first light in the morning. Poaching is not the answer, and I don't no what the solution is, but deer numbers should never be let get back to those numbers again and the person that takes the one deer in the season is not going to help. I was watching winterwatch last week on the tele and they were discussing what deer levels should be for natural regeneration.The thinking now is that it should be less than one per hundred acres. The big hunting estates want plenty of deer for their clients, but as soon as an animal steps onto commercial forestry, then its a dead deer walking. Scottish forestry has a zero policy where it come to deer in their woods and have full time crews employed to cull on sight. We don't want it to get to this either.

Hillhunter

PL05 wrote: »

There must be a serious amount of deer being taken by lads with lurcher type dogs also. i,v heard the rumours about lads taken 3-4 deer a night with these dogs and have also heard stories that deer are being left where they,re killed. Have any of you lads heard of anything like this happening in your areas?. maybe this is another area to be looked into as it seems a lot of lads have these dogs. Might be a hard one to prove though as other lads also use these dogs for genuine reasons [i guess] not sure what the law is Re this.

Not hard to prove, lads on Facebook second week in August with a pic of a stag and dogs saying great start to the season, season my a,,e they hunt all year round to feed their dogs .

PL05

Hillhunter wrote: »

Not hard to prove, lads on Facebook second week in August with a pic of a stag and dogs saying great start to the season, season my a,,e they hunt all year round to feed their dogs .

Spot on. There,s a golden opportunity for the powers that be to go after them. Wonder was there any follow up on that one, maybe not. Your right though when you say season my a**e, they have some f**king neck thinking they have a season for what they,re up to.

Cass

welsummer wrote: »

I have been watching this post with interest, and I think there is a bit of mass hysteria going on with people saying that deer number are so much in decline that soon there will be none left.
Yes, deer number are down, but then a few years ago deer numbers had rise to nearly plague proportions and no matter what your hunting skills you were nearly always guaranteed a successful outing or at least the opportunity of firing a shot..

It is not hysteria as such. Granted it might be a little OTT, but not unfounded.

A few years ago everyone was working, in (good) paying jobs, and the incentive of big pay days from deer was not as appealing to most. This gave rise to deer numbers. Now you have in excess of 4,000 - 4,500 deer license holders. So break it down as much as we can with guess-timation.

In 2011/2012 some 32,000 deer were given as returns. With an increase in deer licenses, that number has surely risen. However the numbers cannot be trusted. Between the people with high numbers not disclosing their true returns, people "bragging" and giving false numbers, and the lack of game dealer numbers we never know just how many are taken. Add poaching into the mix and that number could be off by as much as 5,000+.


With reports of deer populations (all breeds) ranging between 100,000 - 170,000 how long can they sustain numbers of 40,000 per year before they are gone. Also we are assuming that it's all done properly. IOW good management attributed to the culling. Well a lad out for pure profit makes no differentiation between male, female, proper time to shoot, young, old, etc, etc. So even though they are not being shot the herd size, hence population is being dwindled away through improper management.


In terms of combating this. Well frankly, and honestly its not an easy task, and requires legislative change that we, regardless of how well meaning, cannot do. What we can do is letter writing, forming smaller groups to do volunteer patroling (on and off season), lobbying, etc. However NO ONE GROUP should have any sort of final say. This is because at the head of any group is a small collection of 3-5 people and it's their views, and not their members that get put across. So letter writing should be open, and voted on before anything is sent from a group perspective.


I'm going to piss off a few people with my next comment, but if a lad wants to sell a couple of deer then i've no issue with that. HOWEVER a few deer. It;s when the money becomes the goal and not the stalking that problems arise.

I hate posting ideas in case some are taken on board but if someone wants to shoot deer commercially make them pay for it. Other idea are:

• Tags to be introduced at a fee of a few quid per tag (regardless of personal use or selling). Say €2 - €2.50 per tag.
• Anyone with returns of over their tag allowance, according to tags recovered, etc, pays a fine. Say €20 - €25 per deer.
• Section 42's to incur higher license fee of say €20-€25
• Unused tags to be returned to NPWS without refund
• More detailed returns form. Tag number, deer shot, where deer went (personal or dealer)
• Game dealers fined for any deer that cannot be traced back to a tag. €50 per deer.
• Game dealers records linked to NPWS returns to verify actual returns rather than stated ones. IOW tags they have against tags returned
• Regular inspections of game dealers and their records. With between 5-6 (am i right there) dealers it cannot be hard to check once monthly during season)
• Taxation on income above a certain amount to hit only the big sellers of deer rather than the guy that sells two or three.
• Fee for the license. Low enough to keep people interested but enough to raise some funds. Say €10 per license.
• All monies from tag & license fees go to NPWS directly to finance schemes for population checks/census, and increased patrols.
• Volunteer groups formed in local ares with responsibility shared among 5-10 doing at least one patrol a night. Arranged by NPWS so no vigilantes or chance of abuse by the wrong people forming "patrols".
• Direct numbers to the most local Garda station for quick contact with relevant bodies needed to affect checks/arrests on suspected poachers/law breakers.

These are only spit balling ideas so some may not be well thought out or have obvious flaws. The fees and fines should only affect people in the business of selling deer. So if someone is only out for a few deer a year it won't bother them.

For example take me. I shoot between 9-12 a year so i'll round it off at 10. So my license fee is €10, my tags cost €25. So for €35 i'm shooting away. Any game i keep is mine, and any i sell is recorded, and if under the set limit not taxed. If over it then taxed.

Grizzly 45

Dian Cecht wrote: »

H
If you are going to shoot a few for the pot every season why do you need a moderator? I know there may be places where there's livestock nearby but if you're only going to fire one shot (assuming you hit what you aim at) why would you worry about the noise of a single shot.

EU Health and Safety law and protecting your hearing as well as nusiance noise reduction is more than enough reason to have one IMO. Where I shoot is mostly in a three sided mountain valley,the echo of the shot makes it sound like there is an 8lb artillery round being fired there.Even one single shot can start to affect your hearing and tinnitis isnt much fun .

Its ironic you will be fined here for not having a silencer on your car,and you will be fined for having one on your gun.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

......... and you will be fined for having one on your gun.

With the possibility of a prison term. Rare, but is an option a judge can hand out.

Chiparus

Cass wrote: »

It is not hysteria as such. Granted it might be a little OTT, but not unfounded.

A few years ago everyone was working, in (good) paying jobs, and the incentive of big pay days from deer was not as appealing to most. This gave rise to deer numbers. Now you have in excess of 4,000 - 4,500 deer license holders. So break it down as much as we can with guess-timation.

In 2011/2012 some 32,000 deer were given as returns. With an increase in deer licenses, that number has surely risen. However the numbers cannot be trusted. Between the people with high numbers not disclosing their true returns, people "bragging" and giving false numbers, and the lack of game dealer numbers we never know just how many are taken. Add poaching into the mix and that number could be off by as much as 5,000+.
.

I seriously doubt shooters would brag on their returns to NPWS, , I rarely shoot more than 5.

Cass

I know of two "numpties" that did it. I've no idea behind their reasoning for it. Granted it's a small one (putting down 9 when they get 5, or 4 when don't get none), but they do it. It eventually changed to the other direction. Putting in smaller amounts when they started shooting higher numbers. They must think if they put down too low an amount or none at all that they'll not get the license. That's a pure guess though because as said i cannot fathom their reasoning.

I've explained it to them, and told them it's not just about returns, but about the NPWS trying to keep accurate records of deer shot on lands, breed, etc. It's not even going in one ear to go out the other. Luckily neither are shooting anymore. That's all i'll say about it.

IRLConor

Cass wrote: »

I hate posting ideas in case some are taken on board but if someone wants to shoot deer commercially make them pay for it. Other idea are:

• Tags to be introduced at a fee of a few quid per tag (regardless of personal use or selling). Say €2 - €2.50 per tag.
• Anyone with returns of over their tag allowance, according to tags recovered, etc, pays a fine. Say €20 - €25 per deer.
• Section 42's to incur higher license fee of say €20-€25
• Unused tags to be returned to NPWS without refund
• More detailed returns form. Tag number, deer shot, where deer went (personal or dealer)
• Game dealers fined for any deer that cannot be traced back to a tag. €50 per deer.
• Game dealers records linked to NPWS returns to verify actual returns rather than stated ones. IOW tags they have against tags returned
• Regular inspections of game dealers and their records. With between 5-6 (am i right there) dealers it cannot be hard to check once monthly during season)
• Taxation on income above a certain amount to hit only the big sellers of deer rather than the guy that sells two or three.
• Fee for the license. Low enough to keep people interested but enough to raise some funds. Say €10 per license.
• All monies from tag & license fees go to NPWS directly to finance schemes for population checks/census, and increased patrols.
• Volunteer groups formed in local ares with responsibility shared among 5-10 doing at least one patrol a night. Arranged by NPWS so no vigilantes or chance of abuse by the wrong people forming "patrols".
• Direct numbers to the most local Garda station for quick contact with relevant bodies needed to affect checks/arrests on suspected poachers/law breakers.

Would it not be simpler to just require tags for selling deer to a game dealer? If you're just shooting for your own pot then no extra paperwork needed. If you want to sell then you need to buy tags with your license number attached from NPWS.

That way NPWS could track who was shooting what and could target people for audits if they were selling unusually large amounts of deer (or just refer their details to revenue to make sure they're squeaky clean). NPWS could adjust the tag price up and down to encourage more or less shooting of deer.

It's not perfect but it would be cheaper to implement than a full tag-for-everyone scheme and easier from the enforcement point of view.

Cass

Probably would be simpler, but i was thinking not only from a selling point of view, but to retrieve proper stats in returns, full traceability of all deer shot, etc. Then to raise funds for other schemes via tag sales, license fees, etc.

As said none of those ideas were completely thought out. Most are ideas that have been suggested before, and others just "run off from those ideas.

IRLConor

Cass wrote: »

Probably would be simpler, but i was thinking not only from a selling point of view, but to retrieve proper stats in returns, full traceability of all deer shot, etc. Then to raise funds for other schemes via tag sales, license fees, etc.

As said none of those ideas were completely thought out. Most are ideas that have been suggested before, and others just "run off from those ideas.

Yeah, I'd love to see proper, accurate stats gathered but I suspect that the largest discrepancy in the current returns is from commercial shooters. If the bad apples in that cohort were made to behave themselves then the overall numbers would probably be a lot closer to the truth.

And yeah, raising money for the NPWS would be great but all license fees in this country (and most countries AFAIK) go into the one big pot of "government income" and there'd be no guarantee that the NPWS would see any of it in return.

Cass

Absolutely. As a matter of fact i'd go so far as to say that all monies would definitely go to the Gov. coffers. I mean the golden handshakes, and large bonuses have to come from somewhere. :D

Grizzly 45

Chiparus wrote: »

I seriously doubt shooters would brag on their returns to NPWS, , I rarely shoot more than 5.

The single Co Clare muntjac a few years ago,a good case of messing!!

Just to get onto doing something practical while discussing theory.
You all know [or should] your stalking grounds and the traffic and whatnot going thru it,and what we need at the moment is info.So it would b a great help if we could somehow start getting info on what,when ,where on vechicles seen in suspicious circimstances on or around your let.
Be handy if say Joe in Cork sees a jeep reg acting suss in his area,and can somehow inform everyone else and I spot it in my area,and inform all,that this is a reg of intrest. Then Joe sees it in co galway That info can be then passed onto AGS and they can then look into wheter this person is a liscensed firearms holder and whats with driving around the country at all hours???Might be prfectly ligit or maybe not.
But the thing is we dont know who they are orneed to know any personal details,just a vechicle Reg of intrest been seen around the place.
In short,we need a data collection collation and distribution point.maybe somthing like a blog or web page??
It would be a start?Season is almost over,and we need to start getting somthing on the ground for next year and even before it like soonest.