Sickened while stalking

Dian Cecht

Lotharmike wrote: »

If people read the op's post before losing the run of themselves he says a stalk on his lease,that entails a HCAP Course & a nice lump of change to Coillte to boot.For some opportunistic gob****e to Poach from a let he has paid for.Aside from the rights & wrongs of the current system we have that is criminality & needs to be dealt with as such.Report to Gardai as a theft.Enough people do it & question local game dealers as to the source of their carcasses then you might see some action.My own personal belief is we as licensed hunters who wish to stalk Deer should have to Buy Tags from NPWS to fund a proper herd management program & all sale of wild Venison be banned for a minimum of 10 years until a proper study of numbers & habitat is undertaken.Might not be to popular a proposal but would wipe out Commercial Deer poaching overnight.If you return a kill on a tag to NPWS you should get another in season free.Just a thought.

Coilte win on two counts so. People paying good money to them & then shooting the deer & other lads simply shooting as many as they can. Coilte don't mind it's saving their crop (trees). Lot of farmers copping on to the fact shooting rights are worth money too

Lotharmike

Why would anybody shoot as many as you can if you cannot sell them,The main problem I see(stand to be corrected)from Original Poster is poaching?.This thread is delving into a new debate from what I am reading.Also Coillte wins whatever happens,it would be beneficial to all if the funds they collected through hunting could be ring fenced for setting up a proper hunting charter to benefit both land owners & hunters.It cannot be that hard considering most of our neighbors have a booming industry in recreational shooting surely.

thestar

Ye are going to think that this is a very stupid question but I know nothing about hunting. What is that in the images?

viper123

thestar wrote: »

Ye are going to think that this is a very stupid question but I know nothing about hunting. What is that in the images?

It's the insides of a couple of deer, they were gutted onsite before the carcasses were removed...

thestar

Thanks but what good is a carcass to anyone?

rowa

thestar wrote: »

Thanks but what good is a carcass to anyone?

€70-€100 in cold hard cash

rowa

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Really All the farmers I know, which is a lot all over the country, must be the only ones loosing money to deer, rabbits, foxes & grey crow damage so

The irish countryside would be a sad and sorry sight if the existance of a wild species or habitat was down to farmers loosing money or not. Golden eagles take lambs and game don't they ? Maybe they should be poisioned :rolleyes:.

thestar

Thanks, 70-100e from a buther for the meat is it?

marcp

The main reason I posted up this was not to start arguments about vermin or game or who poaches or who dosent poach but it was to try and find out what's fair and what's not.

What sickened me the most was that last Friday night someone shot 2 animals (2 1/2) if you want to count the pregnant hind. This is exactly the same amount of deer that I have shot off this lease since September 1st 2013.

My share in this lease cost me €590. So break that down as 2 animals €295 each.

But some **** can pull up at a gap, shine a light and in 30 seconds shoot the same number of deer as the person who is trying to do things right has shot in 5 months.

Can someone please tell me how is that right.

Capercaille

rowa wrote: »

The irish countryside would be a sad and sorry sight if the existance of a wild species or habitat was down to farmers loosing money or not. Golden eagles take lambs and game don't they ? Maybe they should be poisioned :rolleyes:.

Golden Eagle are a native species. Sika deer, Fallow deer are not. Golden Eagle have no negative effect on native wildlife and to date there have been no reports in Ireland of them taking any live lambs. Sika deer/fallow deer spread TB to cattle, damage crops, destroy forestry especially native tree and sika hybridize with Red deer.

dodderangler

So how long does an animal need to be here to be native then in your opinion

PL05

Capercaille wrote: »

Golden Eagle are a native species. Sika deer, Fallow deer are not. Golden Eagle have no negative effect on native wildlife and to date there have been no reports in Ireland of them taking any live lambs. Sika deer/fallow deer spread TB to cattle, damage crops, destroy forestry especially native tree and sika hybridize with Red deer.

is that why there,s loads of golden eagles left in kerry, DONT THINK SO. or is that why any time eagles or other types of birds of prey where reintroduced in other counties in ireland, someone thought it would be a good idea to shoot or poison them. I do agree by the way that their impact was minimal on taking lambs etc but that that did,nt stop them being wiped out.

meathstevie

dodderangler wrote: »

So how long does an animal need to be here to be native then in your opinion

Can of worms my man; I'd argue that fallow deer can be deemed to be native as they belong in a Western European habitat, same for Roe and Red and Wild Boar in my opinion is not an invasive species either but the like of Sika and Muntjac that were originally shipped from the other side of the globe and have never had a natural presence anywhere in Western Europe are definitely non-native.

Does that mean that there's an argument for exterminating those species in Ireland ? I prefer to keep silent on that one but let's say that too much of anything isn't good either.

PL05

Lotharmike wrote: »

If people read the op's post before losing the run of themselves he says a stalk on his lease,that entails a HCAP Course & a nice lump of change to Coillte to boot.For some opportunistic gob****e to Poach from a let he has paid for.Aside from the rights & wrongs of the current system we have that is criminality & needs to be dealt with as such.Report to Gardai as a theft.Enough people do it & question local game dealers as to the source of their carcasses then you might see some action.My own personal belief is we as licensed hunters who wish to stalk Deer should have to Buy Tags from NPWS to fund a proper herd management program & all sale of wild Venison be banned for a minimum of 10 years until a proper study of numbers & habitat is undertaken.Might not be to popular a proposal but would wipe out Commercial Deer poaching overnight.If you return a kill on a tag to NPWS you should get another in season free.Just a thought.

I agree with everything you say except for the ten year bit, if tags where introduced and the amount of carcasses sold by an individual was capped to say 3 it might help.

PL05

Dian Cecht wrote: »

In the near future, once we know what they've brought down on us, we'll discuss the legacy of as you call them "the pesky pistol shooters".

Unless you can prove those 20 deer were not legally killed you cannot assume it's the result of poaching. Or has the innocent until proven guilty concept been done away with. Or is it more to do with my earlier post in so far as the stalker is doing what he's been asked to do by the landowner/s?

To shoot 20 deer under normal stalking conditions eg doing it within the law and within the times allowed and in one day is impossible. if a lad was that good with a rifle and time he,d be worth a fortune doing something else. seriously its the work of a group of lads at night, more than likely and not operating within the law. for the want of another word. poachers plain and simple.

snipe49

What everyone must remember is we are only minding all this for our children.so let's leave them some deer to. It would be a shame if they were gone who then would pull santa's slay. !

PL05

Rudolf is a reindeer, Jasus dont introduce them or all hell will break loose.

wexfordman2

Ther has to be something can be done about the level of poaching. I can understand the ops frustration, especially having paid good money for a lease, but it's maddening seeing this kind of stuff going on whether in a lease or not.

Is there any sort of grouping representing coilte lease holders that could pressure coilte and npws into being more proactive in tracking poachers. Nothing speaks like money, and coilte stand to loose substantial on both fronts if ther customers start acting up.

On the game dealing aspect, been reading of the recent incidents were poachers have been successfully prosecuted, and it seems to me a regular practice is to leave a carcass out in the open overnight or for several hours before collecting it, to minimise the risk of the poacher being caught.

Surely that is a food safety risk, where the carcass can be targeted by rodent and for etc. If there is a widespread poaching problem and if these carcasses are getting I to the food chain, then it's a health risk. So perhaps some concerns should be raised with food safety authority, or more importantly, perhaps the countries that the meat is exported to should be made aware of the problem?

Does anyone know what the figures are for carcasses sold to game dealers, and how do they match with npws cull return figures?

Two other things perhaps worth considering, the first is local elections, so is it time to lobby your local politician, created a leafleting campaign to hand to them when they come knocking on your door for a vote?

Thirdly, and I know it's difficult to get decent numbers in, but how about a petition of some sort to back up the above?

Capercaille

dodderangler wrote: »

So how long does an animal need to be here to be native then in your opinion

If species arrive by themselves then they are native. Time frame does not matter. Great Skua are only breeding in Ireland in the last 10 years, they are native however.

Species like fallow, sika were introduced by people are thus non-native. Red Deer are a tricky one. They were introduced by neolithic farmers, but were present before Ice age I believe. Red deer could be deemed native.

If a non-species has become an integral part of the Irish ecosystem it is better that it remain (ie rabbit). If the species does harm, then if possible it should be exterminated (sika, mink, grey squirrel, muntjac etc).

snipe49

Well said wexford2. Now let's all get be hind this and see what can be done' before it's to late..!

Dian Cecht

marcp wrote: »

The main reason I posted up this was not to start arguments about vermin or game or who poaches or who dosent poach but it was to try and find out what's fair and what's not.

What sickened me the most was that last Friday night someone shot 2 animals (2 1/2) if you want to count the pregnant hind. This is exactly the same amount of deer that I have shot off this lease since September 1st 2013.

My share in this lease cost me €590. So break that down as 2 animals €295 each.

But some **** can pull up at a gap, shine a light and in 30 seconds shoot the same number of deer as the person who is trying to do things right has shot in 5 months.

Can someone please tell me how is that right.

It's not right and I do not condone any illegal activity.

PL05

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Ther has to be something can be done about the level of poaching. I can understand the ops frustration, especially having paid good money for a lease, but it's maddening seeing this kind of stuff going on whether in a lease or not.

Is there any sort of grouping representing coilte lease holders that could pressure coilte and npws into being more proactive in tracking poachers. Nothing speaks like money, and coilte stand to loose substantial on both fronts if ther customers start acting up.

On the game dealing aspect, been reading of the recent incidents were poachers have been successfully prosecuted, and it seems to me a regular practice is to leave a carcass out in the open overnight or for several hours before collecting it, to minimise the risk of the poacher being caught.

Surely that is a food safety risk, where the carcass can be targeted by rodent and for etc. If there is a widespread poaching problem and if these carcasses are getting I to the food chain, then it's a health risk. So perhaps some concerns should be raised with food safety authority, or more importantly, perhaps the countries that the meat is exported to should be made aware of the problem?

Does anyone know what the figures are for carcasses sold to game dealers, and how do they match with npws cull return figures?

Two other things perhaps worth considering, the first is local elections, so is it time to lobby your local politician, created a leafleting campaign to hand to them when they come knocking on your door for a vote?

Thirdly, and I know it's difficult to get decent numbers in, but how about a petition of some sort to back up the above?

Its happening everywhere and its near impossible to police as these people know exactly what they,re doing, having said that there is,nt enough questions asked when these animals are presented to game dealers unless they are split up and presented by numerous people. your right about the way these animals are collected most likely by someone without guns on board. With re to export, this is why the trained person/hunter programe is being introduced or trying to be introduced but only one person in a group needs to be passed on this so i suppose its pointless in that regard, anyhow as you probably know the idea of this programe is a hunter should be trained in handlig game and spotting disease etc and he has to sign it off as being disease free and only then can it be sold for human consuption. With re to lobbying td,s be careful with those clowns, it was,nt to long ago that a bunch of the ignorant fools where lobbying for a complete ban on hunting of any kind thankfully they where out voted.

FISMA

marcp wrote: »

Came across these yerterday morning while stalking on my lease. No damage by birds or foxes so only shot Friday nite. A pregnant hind and a calf.
This is about 60 yards from the road and someone who knew what they were at. 2 clean strikes and 2 very clean grallochs.
Rots me to the core. Plucks we're not on the ground so obviously a game dealer jobbie.

Before I start, I am of course against poaching and in no way defend them. I too have the same concerns as the marcp. Not trying to attack in this post...

I believe I am witnessing the same form of eradication of deer I observed on fish during the 90's. The amount of places we fished for the first few decades of my life now gone. Despite family efforts of literally bringing fish in buckets to ponds and lakes to try and jump start the population, nothing has worked.

Ireland had better remember quickly that it is an Island and that as such, it lacks the benefits of continental migration. Once your deer are gone, bringing the numbers back will be difficult, maybe impossible.

As an aside, when the deer are gone, what will be the "reason" for your firearm? Will everyone rush to the nearest club? I wonder what their fees will be?

The deer hunting system in Ireland needs oversight and control. Licensed hunters taking 100, or more deer in a season? Seriously? [Insert] Legal vs ethical arguments here.[/Insert]

These same lads point the finger at poachers. Sorry, if you're shooting that much, even now when the does are pregnant, you are not much better.

The fundamental problems in Ireland is: the honor system, over use of high powered rifles, and enforcement.

Aside from the 3rd world, is there any country that you could use long range rifles and a moderator to shoot as many deer as you please for as long as you can in Ireland? That is just too much pressure. This kind of unchecked pressure could do irreparable damage to herd numbers.

Most places in the world that allow longer hunting seasons, or unlimited bag limits will handicap the shooter by making them use a bow, muzzleloader, or shotgun.

As for the original post (not attacking the op here), the outrage is not fundamentally a pregnant hind and calf were shot, correct? Because just a few hours later, that same act was legal.

Again, I ask the NPWS what is the purpose of deer hunting in Ireland: to control or eradicate the population? Currently, whatever the intention, the results I see are the eradication of deer herds.

How many people have seen deer almost wiped out from where they shoot? I have seen three areas now wiped out. Mostly by "professional" hunters who literally and legally fill a horse-cart with dead carcasses. Compare that to the plethora of rules and regulations the average dairy farmer has and the number of hoops they have to jump through handling cattle.

Sorry lads, lampers are doing their bit to ensure the destruction of deer populations. However, this number pales in comparison to what is legally being done.

To the NPWS, I would suggest:
1) Bring in a tag system.
2) Bring in a professional cull license.
3) Limit bag/tag numbers drastically for long rifles.
4) Charge money for licenses
5) Enforce, enforce, and enforce.

1) The tag system does not have to literally be a tag, as it was in the old days in other countries, for example, but a number. When you purchase your license you tell them what you want to shoot. If you want a buck tag, your license gets a number. Once shot, you call this number in to the website, there is a digital handshake, and you are given a confirmation number. Anyone (butchers included) in the country caught with deer that do not have the confirmation number - fine!

If you are caught with a deer and no number - goodbye hunting license! Goodbye rifle license!

2) If you are going to shoot for a profit, fair enough, but now you have to pay taxes and such. Your requirements should be higher than those that are shooting for the pot. Just like dairy farmers.

3) I do not believe that deer can survive the numbers of shooters in Ireland with modern rifle, ammo, and optics, under the current system. There has to be a bag limit of some sort or at least a drastic decrease in the almost half year hunting season. There needs to be a handicap on either the firearm used or the number taken.

4) You want a license - €! You want a buck tag - €! Even the most anti-huting places in the world will never get rid of hunting because of the millions and billions in revenue.

Now, I am being optimistic here, telling the gov't how to spend money! However, if the hunting funds were put aside to: purchase land, increase enforcement, study the herd, and such, I would be all for it.

If paying €50 or more a year meant that I would see a Ranger on a regular basis, no problem.

It always bothers me that "public" land in Ireland is "leased" to those that can afford it. Seems to me that public land should be, public.

There's a tipping point when it comes to deer numbers. If Ireland isn't there, it is close.

Be careful lads. It is far easier to fish/hunt an area out than to stock it.

Just try...

PL05

Capercaille wrote: »

If species arrive by themselves then they are native. Time frame does not matter. Great Skua are only breeding in Ireland in the last 10 years, they are native however.

Species like fallow, sika were introduced by people are thus non-native. Red Deer are a tricky one. They were introduced by neolithic farmers, but were present before Ice age I believe. Red deer could be deemed native.

If a non-species has become an integral part of the Irish ecosystem it is better that it remain (ie rabbit). If the species does harm, then if possible it should be exterminated (sika, mink, grey squirrel, muntjac etc).

not having a go, but how come sika and kerry reds supposedly dont inter breed but they do everywhere else? with regard to fallow we all know they are most widespread but they also come under most hunting pressure with bucks rarely living to their 6th year which is why theres not many around with good heads. also when fallow are suject to prolonged hunting they tend to move out of an area for long periods of time. Sika are a differant kettle of fish, very tenacious and hard to stalk, unlike red and fallow that tend to be easy targets sika make for good stalking. having said that they should,nt be wiped out, but managed properly as with reds and fallow.

wexfordman2

PL05 wrote: »

Its happening everywhere and its near impossible to police as these people know exactly what they,re doing, having said that there is,nt enough questions asked when these animals are presented to game dealers unless they are split up and presented by numerous people. your right about the way these animals are collected most likely by someone without guns on board. With re to export, this is why the trained person/hunter programe is being introduced or trying to be introduced but only one person in a group needs to be passed on this so i suppose its pointless in that regard, anyhow as you probably know the idea of this programe is a hunter should be trained in handlig game and spotting disease etc and he has to sign it off as being disease free and only then can it be sold for human consuption. With re to lobbying td,s be careful with those clowns, it was,nt to long ago that a bunch of the ignorant fools where lobbying for a complete ban on hunting of any kind thankfully they where out voted.

The point I was trying to make re food safety, is that perhaps if we can show or highlight the risk to the relevent authorites that there is a significant risk, then this might actually force some action.

For example, if large amount of deer are exported to uk, then highlighting to the uk authorities the food safety risk due to the significant amount of poaching occurring (which trained hunter does not prevent) might in fact make them force the irish authorities to take action on poaching >

Food safety is a significant concern, particularly recently, surely the lax or insuffecient way it is tackled in Ireland should cause concerns among importing countries ?

Do we have any estimates for number of deer poached, or is there any correlation between npws returns and deer carcasses sold to game dealers or exported to uk.

Tell the uk fsai authority there is a singificant risk with imported game meat due to illegal poaching, and surely they would have to act in light of recent food scares, horse meat etc.

Capercaille

PL05 wrote: »

not having a go, but how come sika and kerry reds supposedly dont inter breed but they do everywhere else? with regard to fallow we all know they are most widespread but they also come under most hunting pressure with bucks rarely living to their 6th year which is why theres not many around with good heads. also when fallow are suject to prolonged hunting they tend to move out of an area for long periods of time. Sika are a differant kettle of fish, very tenacious and hard to stalk, unlike red and fallow that tend to be easy targets sika make for good stalking. having said that they should,nt be wiped out, but managed properly as with reds and fallow.

In Wicklow Red Deer were heavily hunted. When the numbers became low, hybridization with Sika occurred. Red deer will preferably mate with other Red Deer, but if very few of their own species are around they will mate with Sika. Sika and Red are very closely related.

If Red Deer are heavily hunted in Kerry they would likely hybidize. Luckily Kerry Deer are off the quarry list now, but poaching still occurs.

PL05

Fisma. spot on there. since the season opened i,v killed one deer, now im not patting myself on the back here but i,v let a few off. i certainly have no interest in shooting every deer i see, if i did id have quite a few more. i still have some venison in the freezer. before the season ends i,ll probably get one maybe two more, but if i dont i wont be bothered.getting out is more important to me than the kill. Anyway i agree with your post and i certainly would have no problems with what your suggesting. If i was told tomorrow that i could,nt stalk for a couple of seasons it would,nt bother me. But until the easy money is cut out this trend sadly is,nt going to change and as usual the only people who will suffer is the ordinary decent stalkers.

DEMOLISHER

:mad:ITS HAPPEN AS WE SPEAK ON ONE MY SPOTS, my buddy lives over there and rang cops , 3 lads up lamping and firing shots at deer , they were out with in 5 min fair play to them , still up searching for the scummy bast.....d. running around the wood

PL05

DEMOLISHER wrote: »

:mad:ITS HAPPEN AS WE SPEAK ON ONE MY SPOTS, my buddy lives over there and rang cops , 3 lads up lamping and firing shots at deer , they were out with in 5 min fair play to them , still up searching for the scummy bast.....d. running around the wood

Nice one, hope they find the sh**heads.

snipe49

do u know if they nabed them. ?