Sickened while stalking

Hillhunter

Now we are getting somewhere,I would have no problem with 50 a head , it would be money well spent to keep our sport , and yes there should be an organisation of some kind set up by responsible sportsmen / hunters to combat poaching, lets do it now while the herds are still there.

snipe49

I would second that.

PL05

Put the feelers out by starting a thread on here for stalkers who are interested in starting up some kind of organization. keep it simple yes or no and no debates. Then organize a meeting somewhere central for everyone and put ideas forward then take it from there. It might be an idea as said to start up a fund to cover expenses etc initialy, maybe arrange lads in groups and shifts in various areas or counties who can be on call at differant times who can respond to calls or txt message about suspected poaching, this should be a group of lads for safety reasons and set it up in conjunction with garda and npws. If a meeting was arranged, then representatives from gardai, npws and maybe game dealers be invited also, and anyone else should only be allowed attend on production of deer hunting license so as to keep the anti,s out. Having said all this, there would a fair bit of organizing needed to set something like this up eg: commitee, treasurer, chairman etc etc, so you would need people who know what they,re doing and can be trusted to put themselves forward for this. Also you would need farmers/landowners or other members of the public on board to report incidents of suspected poaching.

wexfordman2

Sounds like we might be making some traction. Even on the funding front, we should look at multiple sources including members, state organisations grants, rfd s etc (I would keep game dealers put tbh).

Anyway, perhaps as suggested earlier a thread with a poll, even a dedicated anti poaching forum.

We should look at what skills we have available within the hunting community it as well, anyone with a legal background, also I think anyone with a Web design capability to set up NAPA. Ie :-)

We should/could try and tie up with some of the rural neighbourhood watch schemes as well as there is probably a good bit of experience and common goals we could work off of each other with here.

I think a really important piece is getting the message to the local rural communities. An anti poaching sign right underneath a neighbourhood watch sign would be a great start.

Mods, can boards support this, can we have an anti poaching forum?

Hillhunter

I would say by the time funding from the state arrives it could be too late , but I agree 100% with wexfordman2, I this is an important topic and a poaching forum is a great start .

Downwind

Hillhunter wrote: »

I would say by the time funding from the state arrives it could be too late , but I agree 100% with wexfordman2, I this is an important topic and a poaching forum is a great start .

Here Ive started contacting the papers and this is one story in the last few days down here http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/community/baby-deer-shot-in-the-back-by-lone-hunter-in-limerick-1-5829808 . I'm going to ring Liam Nolan tomorrow afternoon and listen to what he thinks . Look its off the charts theres going to be no next season it that serious .

Downwind

And by the way the next time a member of the public see's me hitting out to stalk my permission as a HCAP professionally trained stalker , informed , educated , and tested and certified to stalk , what do you think they are going to be saying under their breath, ........

wexfordman2

Downwind wrote: »

Here Ive started contacting the papers and this is one story in the last few days down here http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/community/baby-deer-shot-in-the-back-by-lone-hunter-in-limerick-1-5829808 . I'm going to ring Liam Nolan tomorrow afternoon and listen to what he thinks . Look its off the charts theres going to be no next season it that serious .

Could you elaborate a bit more on that ?

Downwind

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Could you elaborate a bit more on that ?

Wex I think we need to get the response up and running Monday.

rowa

Maybe be careful when dealing with the media, they could just as quickly twist the whole thing into an anti-hunting/gun campaign.

Hillhunter

From reading the last few posts , we are eliminating , game dealers, WDAI , and now the media, I know that while we are sitting tonight at our computers (being sat night ) there are others out lamping maybe on your lease or your permissioned lands , so we cannot keep finding the groups to keep out of this , we need to find the right people to support this.

snipe49

They may be out shooting deer now. Or they could be on there computers aswell looking at this . And may have been involved in comment's as well !

wexfordman2

PL05 wrote: »

Game dealers: Lets face it, this is they,re bread and butter so i dont think they,d be much use for this. WDAI, deer alliance etc: would in my opinion only see an opportunity to make money like HCAP and the proposed trained hunter programe. Media: Can you really trust them as said not to twist things and make us all look bad. I would say that 99.9% of anti,s are ignorant of what deer culling is about and a bad press report only adds fuel to the fire.

I understand the point, but what else do we do ? Grand there may be elements that perhaps we dont want involved, or want limited involvement, but the antis and the media just have to be managed. There is a risk to evewrything, but doing nothing is an even bigger risk.

How do you think the media are looking at the recent descivery of the injured deer in north cork, how do you think the antis are looking at poaching. They will both seize the story and use it to their best advantage as long as we leave them do it unchallanged.

If hunters themselves are raising the issues and challenging poaching, then who can make a reasonable case against it ? Is it better for legitimate hunters just to sit back and be lumbered/tarred with the same brush ?

Come on, what else can we do ?

Have a look at this

http://www.shootingtimes.co.uk/news/539931/Antipoaching_posters_launched.html

PL05

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I understand the point, but what else do we do ? Grand there may be elements that perhaps we dont want involved, or want limited involvement, but the antis and the media just have to be managed. There is a risk to evewrything, but doing nothing is an even bigger risk.

How do you think the media are looking at the recent descivery of the injured deer in north cork, how do you think the antis are looking at poaching. They will both seize the story and use it to their best advantage as long as we leave them do it unchallanged.

If hunters themselves are raising the issues and challenging poaching, then who can make a reasonable case against it ? Is it better for legitimate hunters just to sit back and be lumbered/tarred with the same brush ?

Come on, what else can we do ?

I agree with most of what your saying. With Re to injured deer, this is what i meant by ignorance, people will only have an image in there head of a hunter with a high powered rifle when they look at that report, they would,nt distinguise between a responsable hunter and an idiot with a gun. With Re to my last post, i added a bit more to it while you were quoting it, sorry.

marcp

WDAI know about the original incident. Messaged them on Facebook same morning I put up this post.

Message back asking for my contact details never heard any more since.

PL05

marcp wrote: »

WDAI know about the original incident. Messaged them on Facebook same morning I put up this post.

Message back asking for my contact details never heard any more since.

In fairness, im sure there are a lot of members in WDAI that are as frustrated as us about these issues but they can only report incidents as you or i can maybe with a bit more clout but they,re not the law. And if the the man power or resorces are,nt there then it would be put on the long finger.

Grizzly 45

Hillhunter wrote: »

From reading the last few posts , we are eliminating , game dealers, WDAI , and now the media, I know that while we are sitting tonight at our computers (being sat night ) there are others out lamping maybe on your lease or your permissioned lands , so we cannot keep finding the groups to keep out of this , we need to find the right people to support this.

Game dealers are precived as 90% of the problem as they are the money source for the poachers...why bring them into somthing it is rumoured some of them are even employing poaching teams to keep thier ware houses stocked?

WADI...Open to debate,but agree on money spinner,extend the HCAP out of Coilte as the cue all and walk in and take over it all.Would rather keep them in the Coilte foreste where they belong.

Media a VERY double edged sword,relly need professional PR and knowledgeable people talking to them jut have to read the moronic comments and see the slanted pics of the" poor deer " on Journal.ie to see a hatchet ob and media whipped up frenzy against hunters.Dont bother trying to make a fine definition between a poacher and hunter yo an anti or a journalist..



h

en organize a meeting somewhere central for everyone and put ideas forward then take it from there. It might be an idea as said to start up a fund to cover expenses etc initialy, maybe arrange lads in groups and shifts in various areas or counties who can be on call at differant times who can respond to calls or txt message about suspected poaching, this should be a group of lads for safety reasons and set it up in conjunction with garda and npws. If a meeting was arranged, then representatives from gardai, npws and maybe game dealers be invited also, and anyone else should only be allowed attend on production of deer hunting license so as to keep the anti,s out. Having said all this, there would a fair bit of organizing needed to set something like this up eg: commitee, treasurer, chairman etc etc, so you would need people who know what they,re doing and can be trusted to put themselves forward for this. Also you would need farmers/landowners or other members of the public on board to report incidents of suspected poaching.

WHOA there Asparagus!! Getting a tad ahead of ourselves...Lets see first off if we first off can raise intrest in this and actually get a "few good men[and women]." Who will comitt and ap put in the time to this on a local level in their areas first,before we start talking comitteees,positions and "splits" and this and that before we are even born.Lets see if we can get a meet organised first on a national level with HUNTERS first and foremost there.
Bringing reps from other deer organisations will just leave it open to ideas being filched or stolen and suddenly appearing on their new and improved agendas to justify their fees.
KISS the whole thing on a local level first,then if it starts to develop start regional,then build a national organisation.Too many organisations fail as they start building from the roof down to the foundations not vice versa.

PL05

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Game dealers are precived as 90% of the problem as they are the money source for the poachers...why bring them into somthing it is rumoured some of them are even employing poaching teams to keep thier ware houses stocked?

WADI...Open to debate,but agree on money spinner,extend the HCAP out of Coilte as the cue all and walk in and take over it all.Would rather keep them in the Coilte foreste where they belong.

Media a VERY double edged sword,relly need professional PR and knowledgeable people talking to them jut have to read the moronic comments and see the slanted pics of the" poor deer " on Journal.ie to see a hatchet ob and media whipped up frenzy against hunters.Dont bother trying to make a fine definition between a poacher and hunter yo an anti or a journalist..



h

WHOA there Asparagus!! Getting a tad ahead of ourselves...Lets see first off if we first off can raise intrest in this and actually get a "few good men[and women]." Who will comitt and ap put in the time to this on a local level in their areas first,before we start talking comitteees,positions and "splits" and this and that before we are even born.Lets see if we can get a meet organised first on a national level with HUNTERS first and foremost there.
Bringing reps from other deer organisations will just leave it open to ideas being filched or stolen and suddenly appearing on their new and improved agendas to justify their fees.
KISS the whole thing on a local level first,then if it starts to develop start regional,then build a national organisation.Too many organisations fail as they start building from the roof down to the foundations not vice versa.

If all of my post was shown when you quoted on it you would have seen that i did in fact say : put the feelers out to see what interest there is in the suggestions being made;

Fries-With-That

If you're thinking of starting/setting up an organisation to raise awareness amongst the public about poaching there is one thing that is of major importance.

Poaching is not just about Deer, if a group of people that carry guns set up an organisation to protect what they have the guns for ........... you have lost the public already.


An anti poaching alliance should cover all game out there Fish, Birds and Deer, if its anti poaching its not anti hunting if its anti poaching of deer it can easily be seen as a conservation club for the hunters.

An anti poaching alliance should concentrate on raising awareness amongst the non gun/rod carrying public as to what is happening to the wildlife in this country.

An alliance should seek to include all organisations that are involved in any area that concerns wildlife.

The alliance should be about education, not groups of guys/gals stalking the hills in the middle of the night protecting their hunting ground, that is just asking for trouble.

A simple poster campaign, an information drop to all landowners (do you know who's shooting on your land, how to spot poaching activity),an invite to all gun clubs angling associations wildlife groups etc to put signs in their areas.

We've all seen the gun club signs well why not anti poaching signs beside them.

They day you start to exclude people is the day you lose the support of the public.

Hillhunter

Seems to be a lot of interest already , hopefully we wil see this anti poaching forum soon to get the ball rolling .

adrag

Can anyone ans my question.Just got a pup and people are telling me to house train him I should put his nose into his mess, how can this work

Fallow01

As a WDAI member they seem to be the only one doing anything about poaching and getting results, all for free and no one is paid for it!

Campaigns - shine a light on poaching, report a wildlife crime

Media - they are regularly on TV, radio and newspapers

They organise poaching patrols

They were one of the organisers of a wildlife crime conference last year

They are involved in many of the convictions we have seen recently and regularly name and shame

They operate through social media, facebook, twitter, website etc

Most important they seem to have some clout with government, NPWS and Gardai as well, should they not be contacted?

This is their poster on poaching and supported by all the agencies.....

http://www.wilddeerireland.com/documentation/Wild_Deer_Assoc_Sign[1].pdf

wexfordman2

While I am aware of the shine a light campaign, thats the first time I've seen that poster, and I am a stalker.

Now, ask around d your local area, local farmers and residents if they have ever heard of it either and guess what you'll hear.

So, with that in mind, do you think poachers are concerned about it? (outside a few small areas targeted like wicklow etc)

I think the problem is now that concentrating on a small area just drives the problem elsewhere, hence it needs to be more widespread.

I've been told by friends that a game dealer is it travelling from wicklow down to my locality once a week to purchase game. Not all edging anything illegal about this, but coincidental that it coincides with targeted anti poaching measures in wicklow that perhaps are affecting the trade locally. Anecdotal only I admit

PL05

Fallow01 wrote: »

As a WDAI member they seem to be the only one doing anything about poaching and getting results, all for free and no one is paid for it!

Campaigns - shine a light on poaching, report a wildlife crime

Media - they are regularly on TV, radio and newspapers

They organise poaching patrols

They were one of the organisers of a wildlife crime conference last year

They are involved in many of the convictions we have seen recently and regularly name and shame

They operate through social media, facebook, twitter, website etc

Most important they seem to have some clout with government, NPWS and Gardai as well, should they not be contacted?

This is their poster on poaching and supported by all the agencies.....

http://www.wilddeerireland.com/documentation/Wild_Deer_Assoc_Sign[1].pdf

Thats all very well lad, But not every deer stalker is a member of WDAI and probably dont want to be. I think whats being proposed here is that if a poaching offence is been carried out in real time, people can be contacted and a patrol can then go and check it out. No point in patroling an area or areas if nothing is going on. Not trying to be smart with you here but i feel that the WDAI and similar organizations are trying to get the monopoly on this sport and the ordinary stalker is or will be left out in the future. Having said that, that is a good poster with nice clear message. Goog to see that it mentions poaching with dogs which is on the increase also.

Fallow01

Got this from the WDAI.... 2012 NPWS cull returns on the link below, they hope to have 2013 figures in a few weeks

http://www.wilddeerireland.com/news.html#122

Also game dealer returns for 2011 & 2012, they say it covers two game dealers plus two others no longer in business

2011 – 4604
2012 – 4737

Fallow01

wexfordman2 wrote: »

While I am aware of the shine a light campaign, thats the first time I've seen that poster, and I am a stalker.

Now, ask around d your local area, local farmers and residents if they have ever heard of it either and guess what you'll hear.

So, with that in mind, do you think poachers are concerned about it? (outside a few small areas targeted like wicklow etc)

I think the problem is now that concentrating on a small area just drives the problem elsewhere, hence it needs to be more widespread.

I've been told by friends that a game dealer is it travelling from wicklow down to my locality once a week to purchase game. Not all edging anything illegal about this, but coincidental that it coincides with targeted anti poaching measures in wicklow that perhaps are affecting the trade locally. Anecdotal only I admit

I've seen the poster in a Garda station and gun shop, also all WDAI members get the poster to get the message out.

If you go to the WDAI FB page you'll see there are prosecutions all over Kerry, Tipperary, Laois........

You're dead right there is one GD travelling around Tipp, Cork, Kerry and even turning up in Limerick/Clare #greed

wexfordman2

How many game dealers in the country altogether, are there figures for all dealers in total?

Wdai reckon 9% of licenced Stalkers sell deer, so that's about 450 people. Going by those figures that's 10 deer each on average.

Fallow01

PL05 wrote: »

Thats all very well lad, But not every deer stalker is a member of WDAI and probably dont want to be. I think whats being proposed here is that if a poaching offence is been carried out in real time, people can be contacted and a patrol can then go and check it out. No point in patroling an area or areas if nothing is going on. Not trying to be smart with you here but i feel that the WDAI and similar organizations are trying to get the monopoly on this sport and the ordinary stalker is or will be left out in the future. Having said that, that is a good poster with nice clear message. Goog to see that it mentions poaching with dogs which is on the increase also.

Even though they already seem to represent most deer stalkers I'm not suggesting everyone should nor as you say does everyone want to be part of an organisation even a forum but a forum could learn from them as they seem to be the only ones ticking all the boxes and getting results.

Having attended their events there is nothing monopoly about it, just like minded folk giving their time for free for the benefit of our sport.

I understand their patrols are national and operated by stalkers like us, they also have gun club and local group members. From patrolling our own area you can never be at every gate or forest and could be a busy fool if you respond to every rumour.

In all my years I've never seen so many prosecutions and guys being stopped so they must be doing something right

snipe49

It is a great sing' But i see one major problem with it. A'm i right in thinking it's only in english . Remember we have a lot of our european friend's slooting deer as well. !

Fallow01

wexfordman2 wrote: »

How many game dealers in the country altogether, are there figures for all dealers in total?

Wdai reckon 9% of licenced Stalkers sell deer, so that's about 450 people. Going by those figures that's 10 deer each on average.

Those figure only represent two GD's, Irish Wild Game and Pat White not the other three.

Some people only sell the odd spare deer or old stag that wouldn't make for good eating to the GD then there's the greedy ones :mad: so simple maths won't make sense in this case