Water Charges / Tax / Demonstrations / Irish Water / Meter Installations etc etc

runawaybishop

They won't need to liaise - the landlord will just pass on the tenants info.

Ogham

Paulw wrote: »

No, there is nothing in place for IW to communicate with the Revenue nor PRTB.

What makes you say that? Both those organisations are mentioned in the Water Services act as bodies that IW can get info from
Page 11 - here
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2013/113/b113.pdf

Seanachai

Ogham wrote: »

What makes you say that? Both those organisations are mentioned in the Water Services act as bodies that IW can get info from
Page 11 - here
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2013/113/b113.pdf

So you're saying that they could just grab your PPS from revenue all along and the forms were just a nicer way of doing it?. Somehow I don't think they'll go down that road.

Ogham

Seanachai wrote: »

So you're saying that they could just grab your PPS from revenue all along and the forms were just a nicer way of doing it?. Somehow I don't think they'll go down that road.

PPS numbers are a separate issue - covered by different legislation.
This section is concerning finding out who owners or liable people are.

zmccomish

What if any sanctions can be imposed if one fails or refuses to pay the water charge?We know they can turn down the water pressure, but not cut off the supply.With the property tax the householder can be prosecuted or pay/pension docked. But what will happen if the owner will not pay for water?

dudara

Moved to the Accommodation & Property forum where there is a large thread on Water Charges

dudara

Victor

They sue you in court. There may be an attachment order to your earnings or you might have the county sheriff seize your property. It may be difficult to get future credit or utility connections.

Grandpa Hassan

Can utility companies register unpaid bills against your credit rating? Which would obviously make it hard, if not impossible, to get a mortgage or loan. Or can only finance companies do that?

Bob24

Are you a owner occupier or a tenant?

If you're renting they likely won't bother too much with you and go to your landlord who is legally responsible for paying the charges if no tenant is paying them.

If you are the owner of the property, same as any other utility company in term of legal ways to collect your money - plus as you said they might reduce pressure.

Victor

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Can utility companies register unpaid bills against your credit rating?

The credit rating agency will see the court judgement against the non-payer.

Grandpa Hassan

Bob24 wrote: »

Are you a owner occupier or a tenant?

If you're renting they likely won't bother too much with you and go to your landlord who is legally responsible for paying the charges if no tenant is paying them.

If you are the owner of the property, same as any other utility company in term of legal ways to collect your money - plus as you said they might reduce pressure.

That's not how it is supposed to work. But I suspect that ultimately in realty you are right. So as a LL I will have a specific clause in the lease requiring tenants to register and provide evidence of registration to me. Failure to do so within a certain time will be a breach of the lease and result in eviction.

So in my case, that is the sanction for a tenant not registering. If they are registered, but do not pay, then that will sit with them, not the LL.

L1011

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Can utility companies register unpaid bills against your credit rating? Which would obviously make it hard, if not impossible, to get a mortgage or loan. Or can only finance companies do that?

Both the judgement route and agencies like Experian who are used by mobile networks, etc for credit decisions are options for utility providers

ted1

zmccomish wrote: »

What if any sanctions can be imposed if one fails or refuses to pay the water charge?We know they can turn down the water pressure, but not cut off the supply.With the property tax the householder can be prosecuted or pay/pension docked. But what will happen if the owner will not pay for water?

It's not a tax, it's a charge. If it was a tax revenue could hunt you down and kill you. As its a charge by a private company there is not much they can do, other than try sell in the debt to a collection agency who will hound you but can't do much

Bob24

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

That's not how it is supposed to work. But I suspect that ultimately in realty you are right. So as a LL I will have a specific clause in the lease requiring tenants to register and provide evidence of registration to me. Failure to do so within a certain time will be a breach of the lease and result in eviction.

So in my case, that is the sanction for a tenant not registering. If they are registered, but do not pay, then that will sit with them, not the LL.

Yeah sure I meant they will come to the landlord if the tenant refuses to register. If the tenant do register but doesn't pay, I guess they will have to go through a regular debt collection process.

But I can also think of cases where it might make sense to let IW remove a tenant customer and default back to the landlord. Let's see for example a property is rented to an exchange student for a year, who registers with IW and pays the bills. After a year the student closes their Irish bank account from which Irish Water was getting a direct debit and goes back to their home country; and for some reason forgets to tell Irish Water they are not a customer anymore (and doesn't give them any updated contact details). If no new tenant registers and the landlord doesn't willingly takeover the account, surely IW can't be expected to (unsuccessfully) keep chasing a person who is abroad and knowing they aren't really their customer anymore?

In any case, you are definitely right to cover yourself adding a clause in your lease.

Seanachai

What if it comes down to a scenario where enough people register but a large number of those people then don't pay even after it comes down to the debt collector letters after 3-4 months?. They're still rolling out damage control in the media and they're even using the cuddly Leo Varadkar to massage the brains of the more gullible by claiming it's okay to give your PPS as you give it to your dentist!. I think if people stay the course this could actually crumble the government, we'll just have to see what choice people make when the bills come.

foggy_lad

Landlords will not have to pay for properties where they can show that the property was occupied by tenants. This sounds like more scaremongering nonsense from the water meter thugs.

Gatling

Even worse landlords are falling for it with the whole "New IW Clause " been put into leases

Grandpa Hassan

foggy_lad wrote: »

Landlords will not have to pay for properties where they can show that the property was occupied by tenants. This sounds like more scaremongering nonsense from the water meter thugs.

But how does a LL do that? If the tenant does not register, the LL will be liable unless he / she provides proof. What will be accepted as proof (presumably not a tenancy agreement, as that might have ended)? I do not want to be spending time going back and forth to IW trying to prove it. Hence I intend to make failure to register a breach of the lease for the tenant.

Bob24

foggy_lad wrote: »

Landlords will not have to pay for properties where they can show that the property was occupied by tenants. This sounds like more scaremongering nonsense from the water meter thugs.

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-water-landlord-tenant-1726010-Oct2014

It's not all 100% clear, but what I get from the article is that the landlord is liable if no tenant is registered for a property, and that going forward Irish Water will have a process for landlords to basically force-regiser their tenants and transfer the liability to them.

Grandpa Hassan

So....this is how I read the situation.

If the tenant does not return the pack, then the LL is liable. At some stage in the future, IW will implement a system whereby the LL can register the tenant or else prove that they are not the resident.

If the tenant registers but does not pay, then the tenant will be chased (ultimately with a judgement against them) with no comeback to the LL.

Seems that IW will be getting a much higher compliance rate (or registration rate at least) by getting LLs to do their job for them....either by the LL incorporating registration requirements into the lease, or ultimately through the LL registering the tenant directly in order to eliminate the LL liability.

Bob24

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Seems that IW will be getting a much higher compliance rate (or registration rate at least) by getting LLs to do their job for them....either by the LL incorporating registration requirements into the lease, or ultimately through the LL registering the tenant directly in order to eliminate the LL liability.

Yes, I think getting landlords to force their tenants to register was exactly the governments' plan when they passed the legislation to make landlords liable by default.

Del2005

Bob24 wrote: »

Yeah sure I meant they will come to the landlord if the tenant refuses to register. If the tenant do register but doesn't pay, I guess they will have to go through a regular debt collection process.

But I can also think of cases where it might make sense to let IW remove a tenant customer and default back to the landlord. Let's see for example a property is rented to an exchange student for a year, who registers with IW and pays the bills. After a year the student closes their Irish bank account from which Irish Water was getting a direct debit and goes back to their home country; and for some reason forgets to tell Irish Water they are not a customer anymore (and doesn't give them any updated contact details). If no new tenant registers and the landlord doesn't willingly takeover the account, surely IW can't be expected to (unsuccessfully) keep chasing a person who is abroad and knowing they aren't really their customer anymore?

In any case, you are definitely right to cover yourself adding a clause in your lease.

Why is IW different to the other utilities? A LL isn't liable if a tenant runs out on the electricity or gas bill, the company has to chase the person who used the utility, so why not for water?

seamus

Bob24 wrote: »

Yes, I think getting landlords to force their tenants to register was exactly the governments' plan when they passed the legislation to make landlords liable by default.

Can you please quote the piece of legislation which states that landlords are liable for water charges which are not paid by their tenants?

Bob24

Del2005 wrote: »

Why is IW different to the other utilities? A LL isn't liable if a tenant runs out on the electricity or gas bill, the company has to chase the person who used the utility, so why not for water?

The big difference is that IW are not allowed to suspend the service if no one is paying. If a tenant runs out and stops paying their phone bill, Eircom will eventually disconnect the line. Irish Water can't do that and could end up in a limbo providing free water service forever if no one else registers as a customer.

And of course I never said the LL should be liable for past debt of a tenant who ran away. Just that after some time of charges not being paid and if there is absolutely zero engagement from the person who is listed as a tenant, IW should be allowed to ask the landlord for confirmation that the person is still the occupier. And if it turns out that no occupier can be identified the landlord should be given a choice to either have the water service disconnected or become liable for future charges.

Bob24

seamus wrote: »

Can you please quote the piece of legislation which states that landlords are liable for water charges which are not paid by their tenants?

To clarify, the landlord is only liable if no tenant is registered as by default they are deemed to be the occupier (which would be the case if their tenant refuses to register). If a tenant is registered with IW but doesn't pay, of course it is their own responsibility and not the landlord's.

Here is the legislation: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2013/en.act.2013.0050.pdf

Section 21 (5) states that "it shall be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, that the owner of a premises is also the occupier of that premises".

Effectively, in order to avoid paying full charges for a property the only 2 options for a landlord are to declare the premises as unoccupied (in which case they will still be liable but have a reduced assessed charge) or to prove that someone else is occupying the property. It is not clear how to prove this, but I can't really see how it could be done without providing details of the tenancy to Irish Water (i.e. giving them legal means to force-register the tenant as a customer - as the legislation also clearly states that the occupier is liable to pay the charges to Irish Water).

Grandpa Hassan

Bob24 wrote: »

To clarify, the landlord is only liable if no tenant is registered as by default they are deemed to be the occupier (which would be the case if their tenant refuses to register). If a tenant is registered with IW but doesn't pay, of course it is their own responsibility and not the landlord's.

Here is the legislation: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2013/en.act.2013.0050.pdf

Section 21 (5) states that "it shall be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, that the owner of a premises is also the occupier of that premises".

Effectively, in order to avoid paying full charges for a property the only 2 options for a landlord are to declare the premises as unoccupied (in which case they will still be liable but have a reduced assessed charge) or to prove that someone else is occupying the property. It is not clear how to prove this, but I can't really see how it could be done without providing details of the tenancy to Irish Water (i.e. giving them legal means to force-register the tenant as a customer - as the legislation also clearly states that the occupier is liable to pay the charges to Irish Water).

Until such time as that process is formalised, I think it is pretty clear that I will be liable if my tenant does not register.

Bob24

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Until such time as that process is formalised, I think it is pretty clear that I will be liable if my tenant does not register.

I'm just guessing, but I would say yes and no. If you were to engage with Irish Water telling them the premises are occupied by someone else and offering to provide evidence, even if they don't have a formal process in place to deal with it I think it would be difficult for them to ignore your contacts and just start charging you. Whether they are able/ready to legally challenge your tenant to pay charges with whatever evidence you provided becomes their problem - but they can't really claim you are the occupier anymore (if things were to escalate, I doubt any judge would side with them).

seamus

Bob24 wrote: »

It is not clear how to prove this, but I can't really see how it could be done without providing details of the tenancy to Irish Water

Actually pretty straightforward. You can show rent receipts, tax returns, notices from the PRTB, etc. This is civil law, not criminal law, so even showing that you live in another property could be ample "proof" that you are renting this one.

What's written in that legislation is actually already simple contract stuff; the occupier is presumed to be the user of the water unless they declare otherwise. Once they declare otherwise, they're pretty much in the clear.

The tenant's actual details are a separate matter altogether. If IW believe that a landlord is lying about the occupancy of their property, they will need to bring them to court, at which point the landlord can provide the full details to the court to prove occupancy. And then IW lose the case and incur the costs.

In order to get access to the tenants' details, IW will need a court order.

What will probably happen is an agreement between the PRTB and IW such that tenants can give permission to the PRTB to pass on their details to Irish Water. And landlords will start including that as a condition in leases because they don't want to have to deal with the headache.

I'm surprised the legislation didn't include an obligation on the part of landlords to provide tenants' details to Irish Water. Would have saved all this bother without having to breach data protecting legislation or get the courts involved.

Bob24

seamus wrote: »

Actually pretty straightforward. You can show rent receipts, tax returns, notices from the PRTB, etc. This is civil law, not criminal law, so even showing that you live in another property could be ample "proof" that you are renting this one.

I am not sure it is that straight forward.

Each property in the country is either unoccupied (the landlord is always liable) or has an occupier (the occupier - owner occupier or tenant - is liable). The landlord can indeed easily prove the property is not their main residence, but this would only put them in the unoccupied category, i.e. get them a cheap assessed charge as long as no meter is installed.

However if they want to be completely off the hook they need to prove that there is an occupier which is not themselves. I think it is very difficult to do without giving that person's name.

The point on which we probably agree is that no one (tenant - landlord - or Irish Water) will want to go to court over this. So in practice their will probably be an number of formal and informal agreements between the different stakeholders which will lead to IW getting the details of the tenant.

seamus

Bob24 wrote: »

However if they want to be completely off the hook they need to prove that there is an occupier which is not themselves. I think it is very difficult to do without giving that person's name.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree here, but registering as the occupier in one property while declaring that your other property is occupied by a renter, seems to me to be pretty straightforward "proof". Like I say, this is a civil matter, so "proof" doesn't have to be beyond any doubt, it just has to be probable.

But yes, no way these will end up in court. Nobody wants that expense and hassle.