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Water Charges / Tax / Demonstrations / Irish Water / Meter Installations etc etc

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    #212
    Seanachai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,538 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    I think the success or failure of the water charges ( from the imposers viewpoint ) will come down to a critical mass of people either paying or not paying. If people just blow hard about not registering and resenting Irish Water but then chicken out and pay then they'll have won.


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    #213
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Seanachai wrote: »
    I think the success or failure of the water charges ( from the imposers viewpoint ) will come down to a critical mass of people either paying or not paying. If people just blow hard about not registering and resenting Irish Water but then chicken out and pay then they'll have won.

    Won?
    It's a utility bill, not a lotto.


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    #214
    Ogham
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    Seanachai wrote: »
    If I complete the form though am I not giving IW more legal ammo if they want to take me to court for not paying the bill, fines etc.

    You asked about how to avoid your L/L getting billed - and I suggested a way to do that. If you don't register and your L/L doesn't give them your details - then your L/L will be billed . (If he claims it's empty he will be charged €125 a year)


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    #215
    Seanachai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,538 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    Ogham wrote: »
    You asked about how to avoid your L/L getting billed - and I suggested a way to do that. If you don't register and your L/L doesn't give them your details - then your L/L will be billed . (If he claims it's empty he will be charged €125 a year)

    Fair enough sir/madam and I thank you for your answer. I was just thinking out loud in that if I enter a contract with the scoundrels they will have more leverage to take legal action or try and take legal action than if I didn't enter a contract.


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    #216
    Seanachai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,538 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Won?
    It's a utility bill, not a lotto.

    I know right!, I don't even know why people are making such a big deal about it like!. If they can't afford to pay it why can't they just become entrepreneurs. Shouldn't they be looking for work instead of marching and blocking up the city centre?.

    As far as I'm concerned it's a battle, it's just like a bully seeing how far they can get with you. You think that they don't celebrate or congratulate each other for successful programs they introduce in government?. Imagine how deflated and sheepish Enda Kenny would be if 500,000 still haven't paid their bills by say May next year!. He'd be torn to pieces by the opposition, the rosy cheeks would be even rosier!. I doubt he'd brush it off as just a 'Utility bill' it could actually collapse the government ( god be good ).

    If we roll over with these charges then it'll just be something else in five years time. There's an article in the Irish Times this morning about the possibility of the state pension being abolished. I've been on a journey with the health system for about five years now and it's as clear as day that the divide between the haves and have nots in this country is just staggering. The condescending tone in your post gives me the impression that you've never went hungry and money isn't a big worry in your life.

    It might just be a utility bill to you, it's not to people who can't afford to take the hit. It may actually be a defining moment when Irish people learn about the power of mass refusal and civil disobedience, if they follow through that is. Then there's the contemptuous way in which Irish water have behaved that makes it even more galling. I wish I could afford to brush off water charges too.

    The resistance to the water charges isn't just about water it's about making a stand and real justified anger at being governed by people who will do just about anything that a cabal of similar minded fiends in the EU will tell them to.


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    #217
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Seanachai wrote: »
    ......The condescending tone in your post gives me the impression that you've never went hungry and money isn't a big worry in your life......

    Well you're very wrong there, I'm just one of those citizens who does their duty, including paying their taxes, their bills and not defaulting on their mortgage.


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    #218
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Seanachai- you're talking to people who have seen good and bad days.
    I've walked from Dublin city centre to Lucan on more than one occasion- because I didn't have the money for a bus fare. As a student- I camped out, because I couldn't afford a hostel- etc etc. On one occasion- I found a £20 note in a gutter off O'Connell bridge- and almost cried- because it meant I money for groceries for the next forthnight. We've all had good and bad days. Now I have 2 young children- and once again have no money- despite working fulltime- but I couldn't be happier at the same time.....

    Its not fair to make assumptions about people- you don't know another person's circumstances.


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    #219
    Chance The Fapper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 628 ✭✭✭Chance The Fapper


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Seanachai- you're talking to people who have seen good and bad days.
    I've walked from Dublin city centre to Lucan on more than one occasion- because I didn't have the money for a bus fare. As a student- I camped out, because I couldn't afford a hostel- etc etc. On one occasion- I found a £20 note in a gutter off O'Connell bridge- and almost cried- because it meant I money for groceries for the next forthnight. We've all had good and bad days. Now I have 2 young children- and once again have no money- despite working fulltime- but I couldn't be happier at the same time.....

    Its not fair to make assumptions about people- you don't know another person's circumstances.

    But you're still happy to pay the water charges, and criticise those who oppose them?


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    #220
    Seanachai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,538 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    The_Morrigan wrote: »
    Well you're very wrong there, I'm just one of those citizens who does their duty, including paying their taxes, their bills and not defaulting on their mortgage.

    The tone of your reponse sounded like some priveleged people I've encountered in my travels, that's why it riled me. I obviously don't know what your real life experience is. Would you say that we could do without radical people in the world?, that keeping the head down and being compliant is always the best approach. I'm not for tearing up the streets but sometimes drastic radical action is needed. The best tool that people have is to simply refuse to comply in a non violent way. Paying taxes that are fair and legitimate to maintain the running of your country is one thing but being taken for a ride and just accepting it isn't an admirable trait in my opinion, it seems like weakness.

    The world is going to change a lot in the next five years and as far as I can see it's becoming more and more like the hunger games films with a wealthy class and the working poor and not much in between. Just accepting this as the way things are is a dangerous path and a luxury some people can't afford. How bad would things have to get before you would actually lose it , what would your line in the sand be?.


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    #221
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Seanachai wrote: »
    The tone of your reponse sounded like some priveleged people I've encountered in my travels, that's why it riled me. I obviously don't know what your real life experience is. Would you say that we could do without radical people in the world?, that keeping the head down and being compliant is always the best approach. I'm not for tearing up the streets but sometimes drastic radical action is needed. The best tool that people have is to simply refuse to comply in a non violent way. Paying taxes that are fair and legitimate to maintain the running of your country is one thing but being taken for a ride and just accepting it isn't an admirable trait in my opinion, it seems like weakness.

    The world is going to change a lot in the next five years and as far as I can see it's becoming more and more like the hunger games films with a wealthy class and the working poor and not much in between. Just accepting this as the way things are is a dangerous path and a luxury some people can't afford. How bad would things have to get before you would actually lose it , what would your line in the sand be?.

    This isn't politics, you're posting outside the remit of the forum now.


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    #222
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Seanachai wrote: »
    The world is going to change a lot in the next five years and as far as I can see it's becoming more and more like the hunger games films with a wealthy class and the working poor and not much in between. Just accepting this as the way things are is a dangerous path and a luxury some people can't afford. How bad would things have to get before you would actually lose it , what would your line in the sand be?.

    Different people have different opinions.

    What I see when I look at anti water charge protesters are people who only care about their self interest (getting unlimited free water) and are driving us to a society where only the ruthless get their way at the depend of others. To me it is very obvious that moderate water charges are more fair for society as reasonable people don't have to pay for ones who are wasting. Whether the amount should be compensated with lower taxation is a very different debate altogether which I am willing to have (though this forum probably isn't the right one), but the pay for what you use principle is as fair as it gets in my opinion.


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    #223
    Chance The Fapper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 628 ✭✭✭Chance The Fapper


    Bob24 wrote: »
    What I see when I look at anti water charge protesters are people who only care about their self interest (getting unlimited free water) and are driving us to a society where only the ruthless get their way at the depend of others. To me it is very obvious that moderate water charges are more fair for society as reasonable people don't have to pay for ones who are wasting. Whether the amount should be compensated with lower taxation is a very different debate altogether which I am willing to have (though this forum probably isn't the right one), but the pay for what you use principle is as fair as it gets in my opinion.

    I'd pay for what I use, but I won't pay for a €50,000 gym, or €80 million consultancy, or bonuses for DOB and co.


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    #224
    ct5amr2ig1nfhp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,019 ✭✭✭ct5amr2ig1nfhp


    We have NEVER had free unlimited water Bob. Do you not understand that? We are already paying for water via the tax system.


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    #225
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Dorian Raspy Greengrocer wrote: »
    We have NEVER had free unlimited water Bob. Do you not understand that? We are already paying for water via the tax system.

    Which is why I said I am willing to have a debate as whether water charges should come with reduced taxation (which actually it will ... but again wrong forum). I don't want my taxes to be used to pay for the water of a guy who decides to leave all his taps open the whole day because the whether is a bit chill and he is afraid his pipes are going to freeze. Once he is metered he can decide if it is worth his money (rather than ours) ... and I think his decision will be a quick one.


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    #226
    ct5amr2ig1nfhp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,019 ✭✭✭ct5amr2ig1nfhp


    I am very much in favour of capping water usage for conservation reasons. An example - people leaving taps running all winter to stop their pipes freezing? Absolutely disgraceful. Why am I paying for that?

    This is a pure money making scheme for the government and in particular the government's pals. Nothing more. The set up of Irish water has and is a shame. That's the reason I will continue to protest at water charges and in particular Irish Water.


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    #227
    Chance The Fapper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 628 ✭✭✭Chance The Fapper


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Which is why I said I am willing to have a debate as whether water charges should come with reduced taxation (which actually it will ... but again wrong forum). I don't want my taxes to be used to pay for the water of a guy who decides to leave all his taps open the whole day because the whether is a bit chill and he is afraid his pipes are going to freeze. Once he is metered he can decide if it is worth his money (rather than ours) ... and I think his decision will be a quick one.


    It will not lead to reduced taxation.


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    #228
    The_Morrigan
    Moderators Posts: 9,368 ✭✭✭The_Morrigan


    Folks, this is A&P, what you are debating is not within the remit of this forum.

    Please get back on topic.


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    #229
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    My Aunt and Uncle are selling their rural home. One prospective purchaser asked how much their water bill was per year. My Aunt pulled the bill from behind the clock, and there it was, Jan 2014 until end of August 2014, total bill €14 !
    They are on a local Group Water Scheme. I had thought it would be nearer €150!


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    #230
    lm01
    Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭lm01


    Family member has her flat rented out at the moment through an agent and is living with someone else.

    The IW application pack for the rented flat came to her current address along with the application number and PIN.

    She doesn't want to give the letter directly to the tenants as it will have her current address on it. She doesn't feel comfortable with them having that as all contact is done through the agency so they do not need to have it.

    If she gives the agent the app number and PIN to give to the tenants, will they be shown her current address while completing the form online? She logged in to start the process for the rented flat but it only shows the rented address at the beginning and to get past page 3 you need to put in names and PPS numbers which obviously she can't do.

    Does anyone know if your contact address (NOT the property address of the account when they're different) is shown anywhere during the online process? Would appreciate any information anyone might have.


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    #231
    timmymac11
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭timmymac11


    lm01 wrote: »
    Family member has her flat rented out at the moment through an agent and is living with someone else.

    The IW application pack for the rented flat came to her current address along with the application number and PIN.

    She doesn't want to give the letter directly to the tenants as it will have her current address on it. She doesn't feel comfortable with them having that as all contact is done through the agency so they do not need to have it.

    If she gives the agent the app number and PIN to give to the tenants, will they be shown her current address while completing the form online? She logged in to start the process for the rented flat but it only shows the rented address at the beginning and to get past page 3 you need to put in names and PPS numbers which obviously she can't do.

    Does anyone know if your contact address (NOT the property address of the account when they're different) is shown anywhere during the online process? Would appreciate any information anyone might have.

    no the tenants wont be able too see her address that address is only on file for corrospondence


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    #232
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    timmymac11 wrote: »
    no the tenants wont be able too see her address that address is only on file for corrospondence

    The tenants should have gotten a pack as well as the landlord, Allegedly


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    #233
    Sarn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,061 ✭✭✭Sarn


    A colleague is in the same situation, when she rang IW they had no idea that the house was subdivided into apartments. There is a meter installed. She was advised to get the landlord to sort it out. I know if I was in that situation I would not be paying a divided bill and would only pay the fixed charge.

    The first issue is that only one PPS can be used per household, with the likelihood that the landlord has already used his/hers for their own home. This means that all of the individuals allowances will go unused meaning a higher price for water, instead of one allowance being allocated per residence. Secondly, if it was to be a metered charge you could end up paying for other's usage.

    The only fair option is for everyone to be charged the unmetered rate.


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    #234
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    CATSEYES8787 wrote: »
    A wonderful example of fairness; in that case, a single tenant's bill would be shared with large families' whose water consumption will be higher. Makes you want to blow those meters :mad:

    Said large family- will have a separate allowance for each child- that a single tenant won't have- so while the allowance for the dwelling (the 30,000 litres) may be split 6 ways- a family with 3 kids has another 60,000 litres of allowances over and above this. They may feel hard-done by that they don't get the 30,000 litre dwelling allowance in its entirety.........

    Its a case of swings and roundabouts- but it is unfair- as it is supposed to be a utility charged according to usage- however, you have no method/manner of determining this usage........ (and no imperative to save water- as profligate usage by a neighbour may counter any usage you save........)

    A mess- but not on the scale you're suggesting.......


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    #235
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    I think it would be the landlords responsibility to inform IW that the building is split into separate units. Each unit would then be registered and have their own accounts/allowances/fixed charge


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    #236
    Sarn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,061 ✭✭✭Sarn


    No pack here, but the landlord received one and forwarded it on to me. There are no personal details on the website.


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    #237
    PeteK*
    Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭PeteK*


    Dorian Raspy Greengrocer wrote: »
    We have NEVER had free unlimited water Bob. Do you not understand that? We are already paying for water via the tax system.
    How much were we paying?


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    #238
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,298 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    lm01 wrote: »
    She doesn't want to give the letter directly to the tenants as it will have her current address on it. She doesn't feel comfortable with them having that as all contact is done through the agency so they do not need to have it.
    Just so you are aware, the tenants are entitled to the landlord's contact details and if they wish, can obtain them from the PRTB.


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    #239
    Saint Sonner
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Saint Sonner


    Would a landlord be allowed to give names of tenants to Water authorities?

    Are there not data protection laws in place to stop this?


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    #240
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,502 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Saint Sonner wrote: »
    Would a landlord be allowed to give names of tenants to Water authorities?

    Are there not data protection laws in place to stop this?

    Nope, they can hand them over.


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    #241
    Saint Sonner
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Saint Sonner


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Nope, they can hand them over.

    Surely its against my human rights! :P


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