Water Charges / Tax / Demonstrations / Irish Water / Meter Installations etc etc

runawaybishop

TiltedBrain wrote: »

Irish Water Twitter

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-water-landlord-tenant-1726010-Oct2014/?utm_source=twitter_self

Thanks - they originaly said the ll wasnt liable

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/landlords-not-liable-for-tenants-water-bills-1.1944634
Looks like they want the landlord to do their work for them. I don't see how the landlord can force the tenant to do anything - they cant up the rent to cover the charges etc.

Ogham

TiltedBrain wrote: »

Irish water have confirmed that if tenants do not pay, then Landlord will be held responsible.

They are not saying that.
They are saying (as they always have ) that if a tenant doesn't send back the form and give details - then ultimately the landlord will be liable.
The occupier is liable - but the owner is assumed to be the occupier unless proven otherwise.
They will be sending letters to landlords to check which properties are vacant or occupied based on the water forms they have had back (or not) from tenants.
If landlord states property is occupied but no form has come back from tenant - then what? Irish Water have the powers to check with ESB / Welfare if they need to.
IW have to charge someone - even if vacant... so you can't expect them to say if no one owns up to being the occupier then it's OK and no one needs to pay !

listermint

Ogham wrote: »

They are not saying that.
They are saying (as they always have ) that if a tenant doesn't send back the form and give details - then ultimately the landlord will be liable.
The occupier is liable - but the owner is assumed to be the occupier unless proven otherwise.
They will be sending letters to landlords to check which properties are vacant or occupied based on the water forms they have had back (or not) from tenants.
If landlord states property is occupied but no form has come back from tenant - then what? Irish Water have the powers to check with ESB / Welfare if they need to.
IW have to charge someone - even if vacant... so you can't expect them to say if no one owns up to being the occupier then it's OK and no one needs to pay !

Just like the ESB they will have to go after the tenant directly via courts or debt collectors. I dont know why they think they are so bloody special. This has NOTHING to do with the property owner whatsoever.

All their guff on twitter today looks like it was written by a moron in the customer service team who doesnt know their arse from their elbow.

Kevin the Kid

Another circus. Seems like they are making it up as they go along. To expect the landlords to enforce the law for them is pretty unfair. Landlords were never liable for ESB charges. Even when the tenant absconds.

The_Conductor

Thats the exact same as holding the landlord liable for non-payment of electricity bills, gas bills, mobile phone bills, UPC/NTL- or indeed bills for any other utility.

I'd love to see this challenged in court........

Patrickof

Kevin the Kid wrote: »

Landlords were never liable for ESB charges. Even when the tenant absconds.

Yes they were, but that has changed from about 6-7 years ago.

There's 2 scenarios here:

A. Tenant registers, then doesn't pay - tenant is then liable for charges and IW will chase after them - exactly the same as with electricity etc and this isn't a problem (well it might be for the tenant!)

B. Tenant DOESN'T Register, and obviously doesn't then pay either - the LLs name remains on the account and IW are unaware of the tenant so obviously they cannot pursue them.

The difficulty with B, is that all the LL can ascertain is if his/her name is still the registered occupier on the property, and should do this, say 10 days after the tenant moves in. If they are no longer the name on the account, then no problem.

However, if the tenant has refused to register then there isn't a mechanism in place yet for the LL to "force" the tenant. It's unclear if the deposit (or part of) can ultimately be withheld to cover this at the end of the tenancy.

Can an LL just ring up and "close" his account as you can with electricity. With elec, this causes the account to revert to "The New Occupier" and will result in disconnection if the new name isn't registered. This option doesn't appear to be available with IW.

Ogham

Patrickof wrote: »

Can an LL just ring up and "close" his account as you can with electricity. With elec, this causes the account to revert to "The New Occupier" and will result in disconnection if the new name isn't registered. This option doesn't appear to be available with IW.

LL is liable when a property is empty (the unoccupied charge of min €125 a year) - so between tenants teh liability will fall to the landlord.

Patrickof

Ogham wrote: »

LL is liable when a property is empty (the unoccupied charge of min €125 a year) - so between tenants teh liability will fall to the landlord.

Which is fine, the LL is liable between tenancies (as he should be) - does the tenant have the right to "close" his account on departure or does the LL have to explicitly accept liability from that date directly with IW?

There's a few elements in the registration process that haven't been thought through yet!

emeldc

Lots of talk on 'liveline' today about this. It's worth listening back to it. The whole landlord/tenant thing is a complete mess.

Ogham

Patrickof wrote: »

Which is fine, the LL is liable between tenancies (as he should be) - does the tenant have the right to "close" his account on departure or does the LL have to explicitly accept liability from that date directly with IW?

There's a few elements in the registration process that haven't been thought through yet!

Once set up -tenant will be deemed liable until they inform IW they are leaving. Then LL is automatically liable . If a new tenant signs up and takes on liability - then they will obviously be liable.

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/water-charges-who-will-pay-them.html

Grandpa Hassan

Patrickof wrote: »

However, if the tenant has refused to register then there isn't a mechanism in place yet for the LL to "force" the tenant. It's unclear if the deposit (or part of) can ultimately be withheld to cover this at the end of the tenancy.

Handing the tenant an eviction notice would be one mechanism to force the tenant, assuming that registration for the charge is a specific condition of a lease, which I'm guessing will become standard from here on in.

drumswan

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Handing the tenant an eviction notice would be one mechanism to force the tenant, assuming that registration for the charge is a specific condition of a lease, which I'm guessing will become standard from here on in.

Thats not much use to landlords who have sitting tenants who dont register now.

Patrickof

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Handing the tenant an eviction notice would be one mechanism to force the tenant, assuming that registration for the charge is a specific condition of a lease, which I'm guessing will become standard from here on in.

I doubt that not filling in a form is grounds for an eviction.

Also, re the previous reply, whats to stop a tenant closing his IW account one month before they actually leave? (I know they can do this with elec too but that usually gets noticed quicker).

Surely if a tenant is required to give explicit acceptance of the liability, then shouldn't the LL be entitled to the same safeguards? Maybe IW will confirm with the LL?

FutureGuy

Hi all,
I had absolutely no idea (stupidly) that I was responsible for the water charges in my rented accomodation. We live in a large block of apartments.

I have seen no work being carried out to install meters in individual apartments. How on Earth can they track water usage? In addition, we have reported issues with out boiler tank emptying without reason. I'm sure as hell not paying for that!

We have heard nothing from our landlord!

runawaybishop

FutureGuy wrote: »

Hi all,
I had absolutely no idea (stupidly) that I was responsible for the water charges in my rented accomodation. We live in a large block of apartments.

I have seen no work being carried out to install meters in individual apartments. How on Earth can they track water usage? In addition, we have reported issues with out boiler tank emptying without reason. I'm sure as hell not paying for that!

We have heard nothing from our landlord!

They will charge you the average if you are unmetered.

Galadriel

runawaybishop wrote: »

They will charge you the average if you are unmetered.

I live in a house that is divided up into 6 different flats, there is one meter outside, how on earth is that meant to work out?!

runawaybishop

Galadriel wrote: »

I live in a house that is divided up into 6 different flats, there is one meter outside, how on earth is that meant to work out?!

Meter usage/6 = your bill.

Galadriel

runawaybishop wrote: »

Meter usage/6 = your bill.

Then I assume it's up to the landlord to get the bill and divide up, there are 8 people in total across 6 flats so I assume he would have to divide by 8.

runawaybishop

Galadriel wrote: »

Then I assume it's up to the landlord to get the bill and divide up, there are 8 people in total across 6 flats so I assume he would have to divide by 8.

Nah, he'll just give them your names and let you and irish water sort it out - you will probably just get an unmetered bill because its unlikely they even have a meter installed at all.

Galadriel

runawaybishop wrote: »

Nah, he'll just give them your names and let you and irish water sort it out - you will probably just get an unmetered bill because its unlikely they even have a meter installed at all.

It would be so much easier if we all just received an unmetered bill but there is definitely a water meter out side, ah well, guess it will get sorted out eventually!

yannakis

I've got a question, and having a hard time finding more info..

Will IW be possible to cross-check the amount of tenants a registered?

Ogham

YanisK wrote: »

I've got a question, and having a hard time finding more info..

Will IW be possible to cross-check the amount of tenants a registered?

They will not be able to automatically check that but tThey do mention doing "spot checks" - so I wouldn't rule it out. (That's if you let them in)

yannakis

Ogham wrote: »

They will not be able to automatically check that but tThey do mention doing "spot checks" - so I wouldn't rule it out. (That's if you let them in)

(yeah, TV licence mode engaged )

The_Conductor

Providing the tenancy is registered (which it is legally obliged to be)- Irish Water will be able to confirm tenancy information with the PRTB. It'll be akin to the Social Welfare check though- very limited in nature.

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

Providing the tenancy is registered (which it is legally obliged to be)- Irish Water will be able to confirm tenancy information with the PRTB. It'll be akin to the Social Welfare check though- very limited in nature.

Luckily doesn't look like our place is registered (according to the register and he never took any details of me anyway when I moved in bar my first name) so hopefully we can get away with the bill for one person.

Still hoping the LL can be the person registered for the charges and we the bill but still waiting to hear if that's a runner, its what he would prefer too I'd imagine.

Seanachai

Does anybody know for sure that if I refuse to register with Irish Water the landlord will not be billed?. I don't want to pay for water on principle or give my PPS to Irish water but I have a good relationship with the landlord.

Ogham

Seanachai wrote: »

Does anybody know for sure that if I refuse to register with Irish Water the landlord will not be billed?. I don't want to pay for water on principle or give my PPS to Irish water but I have a good relationship with the landlord.

IW will contact the landlord to ask him/her to confirm if the property is vacant or occupied by him/her . If l/l states it is occupied then IW will probably ask for details of occupant. If no details of occupant are supplied they will bill the landlord.
If you want to avoid hassle for your landlord - probably best to fill in the form and then not pay any bill that comes - then teh l/l doesn't have a problem or a bill.

Chance The Fapper

Ogham wrote: »

IW will contact the landlord to ask him/her to confirm if the property is vacant or occupied by him/her . If l/l states it is occupied then IW will probably ask for details of occupant. If no details of occupant are supplied they will bill the landlord.
If you want to avoid hassle for your landlord - probably best to fill in the form and then not pay any bill that comes - then teh l/l doesn't have a problem or a bill.

I'm in the same boat. I'm not giving my PPS to IW though, and my landlord doesn't have it.

CATSEYES8787

runawaybishop wrote: »

Meter usage/6 = your bill.

A wonderful example of fairness; in that case, a single tenant's bill would be shared with large families' whose water consumption will be higher. Makes you want to blow those meters :mad:

Seanachai

Ogham wrote: »

IW will contact the landlord to ask him/her to confirm if the property is vacant or occupied by him/her . If l/l states it is occupied then IW will probably ask for details of occupant. If no details of occupant are supplied they will bill the landlord.
If you want to avoid hassle for your landlord - probably best to fill in the form and then not pay any bill that comes - then teh l/l doesn't have a problem or a bill.

If I complete the form though am I not giving IW more legal ammo if they want to take me to court for not paying the bill, fines etc.