Water Charges / Tax / Demonstrations / Irish Water / Meter Installations etc etc

Gatling

Wonder what the PTRB stance is on landlords forcing tenants to sign up to new leases containing IW clauses

Grandpa Hassan

Gatling wrote: »

Wonder what the PTRB stance is on landlords forcing tenants to sign up to new leases containing IW clauses

Supportive I would think. I don't see a tenant arguing that they were unfairly evicted after refusing to register their occupancy for the water charge as required in the lease getting much traction with the PTRB. Given that the tenant can avoid eviction by registering

Any clauses in lease agreements would not require tenants to pay, of course, merely to register their occupancy. Then whether they pay is up to them

ted1

Bob24 wrote: »

To clarify, the landlord is only liable if no tenant is registered as by default they are deemed to be the occupier (which would be the case if their tenant refuses to register). If a tenant is registered with IW but doesn't pay, of course it is their own responsibility and not the landlord's.

Here is the legislation: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2013/en.act.2013.0050.pdf

Section 21 (5) states that "it shall be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, that the owner of a premises is also the occupier of that premises".

Effectively, in order to avoid paying full charges for a property the only 2 options for a landlord are to declare the premises as unoccupied (in which case they will still be liable but have a reduced assessed charge) or to prove that someone else is occupying the property. It is not clear how to prove this, but I can't really see how it could be done without providing details of the tenancy to Irish Water (i.e. giving them legal means to force-register the tenant as a customer - as the legislation also clearly states that the occupier is liable to pay the charges to Irish Water).

Having a tenant registered on the PRTB should be proof enough

Gatling

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Supportive I would think. I don't see a tenant arguing that they were unfairly evicted

i get a feeling landlords who take that route might be in for an expensive time .

I'm sure some tenants will tell landlords to take a hike .
I know of two large developments that sent out letters threatening tenants if they failed to register for IW and it caused massive uproar to the point of the development management having to issue letters of apologises when they were threatened with legal actions from the tenants themselfs

Spanish Eyes

ted1 wrote: »

Having a tenant registered on the PRTB should be proof enough

Indeed. And why is there not a transfer of information directly from PRTB to IW anyway?

The PPSN is provided by tenants to the LL for PRTB registration purposes aswell.

The upside of PRTB information exchange is flushing out non registered landlords! Silly drafters. They should have included a clause whereby the landlord's PRTB reference details would exclude them from the charge.

Apologies if I have got any of the above wrong and it is in place.

dave ireland

looking at this water charge thing over the past week or so, I think the Gaelers are going down over it. political party's over the years have from time to time shot themselves in the foot, but the Gaelers have shot themselves in the head, Enda Kenna might just be the last Fine Gael Taoiseach ever.....

The next thing is , will a load of independent minsters be able to get along together after the next elections and run things....

Or maybe a breakaway party mite be set up next year......

L1011

Gatling wrote: »

Even worse landlords are falling for it with the whole "New IW Clause " been put into leases

I would consider a clause requiring tenants to ensure that all utilities provided to the house remain supplied as normal and paid for to be extremely sensible. Nothing makes it an "IW clause" except poor judgement if they decide to use that utility specifically.

A house returned to you with reduced-flow water is realistically as unrentable as one returned to you with the gas or power turned off.

Grandpa Hassan

Gatling wrote: »

i get a feeling landlords who take that route might be in for an expensive time .

I'm sure some tenants will tell landlords to take a hike .
I know of two large developments that sent out letters threatening tenants if they failed to register for IW and it caused massive uproar to the point of the development management having to issue letters of apologises when they were threatened with legal actions from the tenants themselfs

A management company threatening tenants is very different to a LL wanting his / her tenant to register by including a clause in lease agreements.

ted1

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Indeed. And why is there not a transfer of information directly from PRTB to IW anyway?

The PPSN is provided by tenants to the LL for PRTB registration purposes aswell.

The upside of PRTB information exchange is flushing out non registered landlords! Silly drafters. They should have included a clause whereby the landlord's PRTB reference details would exclude them from the charge.

Apologies if I have got any of the above wrong and it is in place.

Data protection prevents the exchange of information between departments yet alone a private company.
Sometimes the days protection act is a complete hindrance to common sense.

And the funniest thing is that those who complain about have no problem sharing extremely private information on socia network sites

Spanish Eyes

ted1 wrote: »

Data protection prevents the exchange of information between departments yet alone a private company.
Sometimes the days protection act is a complete hindrance to common sense.

And the funniest thing is that those who complain about have no problem sharing extremely private information on socia network sites

It's just ridiculous. Where do you think they got the names and addresses for the packs?

Household charge, PRTB, LPT, DSP? cos they sure got them from somewhere, and the source was never revealed afaik. There is another possibility, the utility companies like.... Bord Gais! But they wouldn't have everyone on their books with competition. So did IW get the info from other suppliers aswell? Or maybe from Geocode, like the Revenue did for the LPT.

However.....My mother's correspondence address is here at my home only for two things, her bank statements and taxation matters. She doesn't live here. She is residing in a nursing home sadly and has a property let out to help defray the costs. She has paid HC, LPT, and is registered with PRTB. But she has NO utility bills in her name at all now.

Her water charge letter however, arrived here. Presumably in respect of the rental property.

Hah! Do you see where I am coming from? Data Protection my foot!

I am quite sure IW already have the goods on all of us already. The source I'm not so sure of, but presumably one of the above.

Victor

On topic please.

Moderator

YellowFeather

I don't really get this. I've been away for the last while, and I expected to come home (to the place I'm renting) and find a pack waiting for me. But.. nothing.

If there were charges, I would have paid them to save any hassle, but I'm not planning on ringing them to ask them to take my monies.

I'm assuming the owner of my house hasn't got any notifications either, as I would have heard about it from the agency.

I'm very confused Ted.

ted1

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

It's just ridiculous. Where do you think they got the names and addresses for the packs?

Household charge, PRTB, LPT, DSP? cos they sure got them from somewhere, and the source was never revealed afaik. There is another possibility, the utility companies like.... Bord Gais! But they wouldn't have everyone on their books with competition. So did IW get the info from other suppliers aswell? Or maybe from Geocode, like the Revenue did for the LPT.

However.....My mother's correspondence address is here at my home only for two things, her bank statements and taxation matters. She doesn't live here. She is residing in a nursing home sadly and has a property let out to help defray the costs. She has paid HC, LPT, and is registered with PRTB. But she has NO utility bills in her name at all now.

Her water charge letter however, arrived here. Presumably in respect of the rental property.

Hah! Do you see where I am coming from? Data Protection my foot!

I am quite sure IW already have the goods on all of us already. The source I'm not so sure of, but presumably one of the above.

The live/ voters register is an open database and if you ever entered a competition or filled up a form, the marketing company can sell in their database and your details.

Spanish Eyes

ted1 wrote: »

The live/ voters register is an open database and if you ever entered a competition or filled up a form, the marketing company can sell in their database and your details.

Sorry mods, please indulge me for this comment.....:) -

I know all that! But not everyone is on the voter's register.

ted1

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Sorry mods, please indulge me for this comment.....:) -

I know all that! But not everyone is on the voter's register.

The vast majority of people are and as stated its just one source

The_Conductor

The latest ball being kicked around- is to make the Revenue Commissioners responsible for collecting the water tax. If we go down this road- we would be better off- just abolishing Irish Water- or at very least, making it subservient to the various local authorities- and using any income generated to upgrade the network (and not pay for bonuses for staff etc).

Wonder what the next proposals are after the proposed 82 demonstrations around the country today? Politicians are finally copping that this is an issue that people will batter them over the head with- anyone who wants to be re-elected, has to distance themselves as far as possible from Irish Water.........

The_Conductor

Multiple water charges / water tax threads merged into one here. Sorry if its slightly disjointed. Please keep all water charge/tax related discussion her.

Thankyou.

Bob24

The_Conductor wrote: »

Revenue Commissioners responsible for collecting the water tax.

It might fit some people's narrative better to use this word, but it is not a tax ... water charges is what it is. Most countries in the world have the same concept and no-one is calling it a tax.
Sure it is a new burden on households as much as a new tax would be, but lets use the right words.

The_Conductor

It suits the politicians to frame it as such- Phil Hogan is on the record in the last 24 hours, equating no paying water charges with adding 2% to the marginal tax rate.........

There is so much crap being bandied about- politicians are deliberately trying to muddy the water as much as possible.......

dave ireland

Went on the anti water march today, I am in my 50s and this is the first time I have ever done anything like this. Lads,, this cant work and it will not work. At the end of the day we do not trust our government or Irish water.

Anything that's been said at the minute is only to get you signed up.....

We know there is no point in cutting down, they said so themselves
We know the price will go up and up and up
We know the allows will stop
We know the V.A.T will go on it
We know our tax's wont chance
We know the service wont chance
We know the hi way drainage charge will be added
We know there will be a standing charge of some sort
We know they will say its worst than we thought we need more money to fix it

""The votes of the many, outdo the votes of the fue, or the one""

I'm most definitely not paying one cent till after the next election when there is a better transparent upfront deal, properly managed and laid out in the interest of people and water supply, not in the interest of a handful of con men/women

Paulw

YellowFeather wrote: »

I'm very confused Ted.

You are not the only one confused, and IW don't seem to have proper answers to resolve any confusion.

The_Conductor

Another water charges/tax thread has been merged into this 'Mega Water Mess' thread....... Please keep all water rates/charges/tax/demonstration etc comments on this thread.

Cheers.

dave ireland

A Nine year old boy comes home from school and enthusiastically tells his father about his day in school. He begins to talk about two very important visitors that called to his class today to teach them about water and where it comes from.

The first man was very smart and had letters after his name and even won a prize called the Nobel peace prize. He told us that water is slowly taking from the big sea, up into the clouds and when the clouds are over Ireland they just keep dropping water all over Ireland, and that this water turns into rivers and lakes and then flows back into the sea and then back up into the clouds again.
The smart man said that this has been going on for millions and millions of years and because the Irish people were very smart, they paid there government huge amounts of money called taxes so that the nice men could bring a little drop of this water into their homes.
The smart man told us that water goes through our homes and even through our own body’s before going back into the sea to be recycled back up into the clouds.

And then we had a visit from a man called Mr Enda Kenny,, little tommy who sits beside me in class said his mammy told him that Mr Kenny use to work in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang as the child chaser who took little children from their mammy’s and daddy’s with his big net, and now he uses his net to take all mammy’s and daddy’s money away and give it to the people who live in utopia.

Mr Kenny told us that the Leprechaun who live at the end of the rainbow, make the water and keep it in a big golden pot under the ground and give it to the Irish people just because they like doing things like that. But now Mr Kenny said, the Leprechaun had turned into bad Leprechaun because they lost all their money playing a game called,,, property gambling,-? And now they wanted more money for the water.

Our teacher Miss Areuforreal ask Mr Kenny , do the mammy’s and daddy’s not pay for water already.
Mr Kenny said no (that was only in their imagination)

Mr Kenny told us not to worry because he had a magic friend who was so powerful that with a little wink of his eye was able to wipe out all his owed taxes, and he was going to put a little pipe thing called a red herring into all our homes so that we all paid a fair price to keep the leprechaun bringing the water to us.
Miss Areuforreal cried “Mr Kenny” “Mr Kenny” if the mammy’s and daddy’s give the money to your magic friend to pay the leprechaun, they won’t have any money for bread, Mr Kenny said
“” LET THEM EAT CAKE””

garhjw

Anyone been listening to that lose ogle the last couple of days?he really makes my skin crawl. I was hoping he had moved to Cuba in order to worship his idol.

dave ireland

At first I thought FG were just out of touch with %99 of the people, but I now think there in their own little cocoon like a child who thinks if they close their eyes its not there.

garhjw

Yep, they do appear to be losing touch like all the other parties have. They made some poor decision over the last 12-18 months.

The_Conductor

garhjw wrote: »

Yep, they do appear to be losing touch like all the other parties have. They made some poor decision over the last 12-18 months.

They could always put the spotlight on Motormouth Varadker- he seems to be quite adept at making weird and wonderful commentaries on matters concerning Departments other than his own........

As for Brendan Ogle- does anyone actually listen to that fool- after his debacle from his ESB days?

The government need to sit down with ordinary people- and hear things as they are........ Just because we voted them in- doesn't give them a mandate to do as they please- contrary to Enda's opinion. We voted them in, because they weren't Fianna Fáil- and for no other reason. The government have actually managed to make Fianna Fáil an acceptable alternate- which is quite a shocking achievement- given how destructive they have been..........

Me- I think I'll keep my head down- and get the hell out of here at age 60- for a lower cost living standard in a rural village in Portugal somewhere.........

I've had it.

dave ireland

Sun sea sand, go into a shop where people speak English Ohh yeh ,, where is me lotto numbers.

pwurple

Jeez it's a mess alright. But I think what happened was that they tried to cave to the pressure too much.

They had to bring in water charges of some kind, that was the terms agreed by the last govt. Meters seem fair, pay for what you use. Use less, pay less. Fine.

And then it goes completely out the window.

-They cave to people wanting allowances for children. PPS numbers required for that to prevent fraud. The people go nuts.

-They cave to people wanting allowances for health reasons. Now you have to give some random water employee your health details? F off.

-They cave to social welfare. Now there is another agency dealing with paying this. Social welfare households benefits pack application needed.

-They cave to people wanting a tax rebate for it. Now you have to fill in a revenue form for this. Hurray, let's now involve yet another group in dealing with water. So now we have Irish water, GP's, Social Welfare and Revenue all getting wrapped up in it.

-They set up this monolith of a company to deal with it, where bonuses and perks are handed out seemingly willy nilly, while they don't have the setup to deal with something like answering a phone.

It's turned into a monster. You can't register unless you have a PIN, which loads of us never received.
What about shared custody children?
What about mixed use properties that are already paying rates?


If they just left it being SIMPLE, meter in, charge low. Done.


Complete project management failure.

Bob24

pwurple wrote: »

If they just left it being SIMPLE, meter in, charge low. Done.

In one sentence I think you nailed it, yes.

I think it made sense to create a centralised and national entity though ... letting each local authority deploy their own metering/billing system and do things their own way would definitely have costed more money and created more issues - and I believe it is a good thing to have one organisation to hold responsible for issues with the water network - it will put more pressure on them to fix things like boil water notices as they will all be compiled in centralised regulatory reporting and gain more national media exposure. Was Irish Water the best way to do this is another question ...