Water Charges / Tax / Demonstrations / Irish Water / Meter Installations etc etc

Seanachai

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

But how does a LL do that? If the tenant does not register, the LL will be liable unless he / she provides proof. What will be accepted as proof (presumably not a tenancy agreement, as that might have ended)? I do not want to be spending time going back and forth to IW trying to prove it. Hence I intend to make failure to register a breach of the lease for the tenant.

Why don't you just not pay and show some solidarity?, I'm glad you're not my landlord.

Bob24

Seanachai wrote: »

Why don't you just not pay and show some solidarity?, I'm glad you're not my landlord.

Maybe because he doesn't want to engage his own legal responsibility and get a bad credit history to support his tenant's beliefs?

If the tenant want to protest they can register with Irish Water and not pay the bills - i.e. engage their own responsibility.

Honestly I'd prefer a landlord who is aware of their legal responsibilities to one which doesn't care about them. Your ideal landlord who doesn't care about being compliant with the law when it comes to water charges might not be as ideal any more when they decide they don't want to register you with the PTRB or to evict you in a dodgy way because, well, who cares about the law?

pwurple

Seanachai wrote: »

Why don't you just not pay and show some solidarity?, I'm glad you're not my landlord.

Because he/she doesn't want to be stuck with bills and penalties down the road?

Grandpa Hassan

Seanachai wrote: »

Why don't you just not pay and show some solidarity?, I'm glad you're not my landlord.

Are you serious? If the tenant wants to protest, then they don't pay the bill once they've registered.

But if the tenant doesn't register then as things stand right now, then it lands with me (until such time as a proper system is put in place to facilitate LLs informing IW of the identity of the tenants). Why should I take a bullet for a tenant, who then gets off scot free?

railwaylad

Is it possible to go fully of grid in respect of water in, anyone out there doing this or would you get by on rain water + bottle water for drinking, I believe once it is stored right and filtered right water will keep for years. I do not mind suffering a bit for a year or so till things level out and I know for sure what the cost will be for tap water.

Surely there is environmental family's doing this in Ireland somewhere.

Paulw

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Why should I take a bullet for a tenant, who then gets off scot free?

Of course you shouldn't be liable for someone else's debt. But this is something that all landlords need to take up with IW. They are trying to bully landlords in to registering the tenant, which the landlord has no legal liability to do.

This is a pure IW created mess.

listermint

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Are you serious? If the tenant wants to protest, then they don't pay the bill once they've registered.

But if the tenant doesn't register then as things stand right now, then it lands with me (until such time as a proper system is put in place to facilitate LLs informing IW of the identity of the tenants). Why should I take a bullet for a tenant, who then gets off scot free?

You can tell them its occupied. The bill is not yours.

So no ones gets off scot free its IW issue to find out the occupant, not yours.

You have been misinformed.

Bob24

listermint wrote: »

You can tell them its occupied. The bill is not yours.

So no ones gets off scot free its IW issue to find out the occupant, not yours.

You have been misinformed.

This whole thing still is a grey area that needs clarification, but just saying it is occupied by someone else with no further evidence is unlikely to work (it would be a bit too easy then - all of a sudden there would be a lot of properties in Ireland which are occupier by an unidentified third party ;-)).

The law (not Irish Water) says the owner of a property is automatically liable for associated water charges unless it is proven that someone else is occupying the premises. Irish Water still haven't clarified how they want to make this work n practice ... but regardless of what they say, for a landlord not to be liable in front of the law they will have to be able to demonstrate that they made a reasonable attempt to provide some kind of evidence to Irish Water that they are not the occupier of the property. What evidence is sufficient - no one really knows at this stage.

listermint

Bob24 wrote: »

This whole thing still is a grey area that needs clarification, but just saying it is occupied by someone else with no further evidence clearly won't work (it would be a bit too easy then - all of a sudden there would be a lot of properties in Ireland which are occupier by an unidentified third party ;-)).

The law (not Irish Water) says the owner of a property is automatically liable for associated water charges unless it is proven that someone else is occupying the premises. Irish Water still haven't clarified how they want to make this work n practice ... but regardless of what they say, for a landlord not to be liable in front of the law they will have to be able to demonstrate that they made a reasonable attempt to provide some kind of evidence to Irish Water that they are not the occupier of the property. What evidence is sufficient - no one really knows at this stage.

IW are not saying what is proof because it conflicts with existing Data Protection legislation.

That doesn't override the fact that the landlord is not responsible if occupied.

Burden of proof is with IW, currently that much is fact.

So all the whataboutery from grandpa is factually incorrect.

Bob24

listermint wrote: »

Burden of proof is with IW, currently that much is fact.

So all the whataboutery from grandpa is factually incorrect.

Burden of which proof though?

It is an unquestionable fact that he is the owner of the property and that the law says the owner is liable for the charges by default.

There is nothing more IW have to prove to send bills to him.

But in any case as you mentioned the government have probably made a mess here with conflicting legislation. As a tenant I wouldn't like the law to allow my landlord to give my details to Irish Water. But the law is still requiring the landlord to provide some proof that someone else is occupying the property - putting them them (and Irish Water) in a conflicting situation. This is the same type of conflict they created when some government agencies (social welfare) put IW in charge of collecting PPS numbers to validate allowances, but other agencies (data protection) were saying Irish Water should be allowed to process that kind of information. At the end of the day the issue is that Irish Water is been asked to do things the government should be doing, except they are not the government and cannot and should not be allowed to collect data unrelated to running a water service and billing customers.

I think how to deal with this is not a decision IW can make - it will have to come for the government.

listermint

Bob24 wrote: »

Burden of which proof though?

It is an unquestionable fact that he is the owner of the property and that the law says the owner is liable for the charges by default.

There is nothing more IW have to prove to send bills to him.

But in any case as you mentioned the government have probably made a mess here with conflicting legislation. As a tenant I wouldn't like the law to allow my landlord to give my details to Irish Water. But the law is still requiring the landlord to provide some proof that someone else is occupying the property - putting them them (and Irish Water) in a conflicting situation. This is the same type of conflict they created when some government agencies (social welfare) put IW in charge of collecting PPS numbers to validate allowances, but other agencies (data protection) were saying Irish Water should be allowed to process that kind of information. At the end of the day the issue is that Irish Water is been asked to do things the government should be doing, except they are not the government and cannot and should not be allowed to collect data unrelated to running a water service and billing customers.

I think how to deal with this is not a decision IW can make - it will have to come for the government.

Where is this unquestionable fact? Is this the same case for electricity or gas for example ? given that no specific contract has been signed up to and the user of the utility is actual unknown how is this playing out for IW.

This is why we have no reply on the matter, because they are in a legal quagmire. Its neither the property owners bill or the occupier. But they cant point to existing legislation to sting either party.

Yes it is a mess and its a mess of IW and the governments making.

Grandpa Hassan

listermint wrote: »

You can tell them its occupied. The bill is not yours.

So no ones gets off scot free its IW issue to find out the occupant, not yours.

You have been misinformed.

Given that it's a mess, and unclear, as illustrated in the last few posts, then I am not going to take any risk. Nor put myself in the position when I am trying to run around proving who lives there when it is more straightforward to just get the tenant to register like they are supposed to.

Bob24

listermint wrote: »

Where is this unquestionable fact?

1) I don't think anyone is questioning the fact that he is the owner of the property (he is not himslef, and IW got his name from the LPT register). Do you?

2) And I don't think anyone is questioning the fact that the law says that unless proven otherwise the owner of a premises is also the occupier of that premises (see here). Do you?

3) Finally I don't think anyone is questioning the fact that the occupier of a premises is legally liable for the charges (see same document as previously). Do you?

1+2 make him the occupier unless no one else registers (as the Water Services Act is concerned). 2+3 make him legally liable for the charges.

Grandpa Hassan

listermint wrote: »

Where is this unquestionable fact? Is this the same case for electricity or gas for example ? given that no specific contract has been signed up to and the user of the utility is actual unknown how is this playing out for IW.

This is why we have no reply on the matter, because they are in a legal quagmire. Its neither the property owners bill or the occupier. But they cant point to existing legislation to sting either party.

Yes it is a mess and its a mess of IW and the governments making.

And of course it's not the same for electricity or has since they can just get cut off with no problems, and thus sit solely with the occupier. In this case the default responsibility lies with the owner

listermint

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

And of course it's not the same for electricity or has since they can just get cut off with no problems, and thus sit solely with the occupier. In this case the default responsibility lies with the owner

Incorrect, Which is still why you are ill informed and still spreading your ill informed posts across the forum.

Sign up your tenants if you like, Thats illegal.

Get them to sign up themselves if you like, That just makes you a bailiff enforcer. But sure whatever your having yourself.

And you are still not responsible if there is a tenant occupying your property. But again you know this already and so do IW. which is why they are saying nothing and scaring you into doing the enforcement on their behalf.

Are they paying for your bailiff services ?



:rolleyes:

Grandpa Hassan

listermint wrote: »

Incorrect, Which is still why you are ill informed and still spreading your ill informed posts across the forum.

Sign up your tenants if you like, Thats illegal.

Get them to sign up themselves if you like, That just makes you a bailiff enforcer. But sure whatever your having yourself.

And you are still not responsible if there is a tenant occupying your property. But again you know this already and so do IW. which is why they are saying nothing and scaring you into doing the enforcement on their behalf.

Are they paying for your bailiff services ?



:rolleyes:

You are as ill informed as I. No one knows what is going on. There is no clarity about how a LL can prove that they are not the occupier if the tenant does not register. Bob24, above, draws the sensible conclusions from the current situation

I don't know where you got the idea I would sign tenants up. You're just making that up so that you can go off on a rant. There is not the mechanism to do so (though messages from IW would suggest that that is under consideration). In the meantime, I will ensure that my tenants register. That doesn't mean they have to pay. I'm no bailiff. But it ensures that there is no risk that the non payment sits with me.

The_Conductor

I'm warning you- quit squabbling- if you disagree with what someone else posts- refute the post- without attacking the poster. Its not too hard to remain civil towards one another, now, is it?

Paulw

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

There is not the mechanism to do so (though messages from IW would suggest that that is under consideration). In the meantime, I will ensure that my tenants register.

How do you ensure that the tenant registers? You have no way to compel them to. You can request, and they can simply say no.

Colonial

We have some of the most expensive line rental, electricity and many other rates in the world! IW should be a bit of craic so the politicians can use it as retirement home!

Grandpa Hassan

Paulw wrote: »

How do you ensure that the tenant registers? You have no way to compel them to. You can request, and they can simply say no.

It'll be a specific clause in new lease agreements (the requirement to register....not necessarily to pay - that is the tenant's call)

Bob24

listermint wrote: »

Incorrect, Which is still why you are ill informed and still spreading your ill informed posts across the forum.

You have called other people ill informed a few times but interestingly in none of your posts have you quoted any source to back you up.

I will say it again quoting the exact legislation: "it shall be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, that the owner of a premises is also the occupier of that premises".

This makes the landlord automatically liable for the charges unless someone else registers as a customer or they prove they are not the occupier.

What is not clear is how to prove it, but the requirement to do so is in the legislation.

The_Conductor

Guys- this is a once and final warning.
If/when you disagree with what someone else posts- refute the post, without attacking the poster. If you insist on making snide remarks, comments on their intelligence level, outlandish claims about their previous posts etc- you will be sanctioned.

There is a charter governing how posters should behave in this forum here.

While I fully accept that Irish Water and whether or not its a charge or a tax, and whether or not people intend to pay- or not, to protest, or not, to provide security details, or not- etc etc etc- it is wholly unacceptable to behave in such a cavalier manner towards other forum members.

If you cannot follow the simple rules as laid out in the charter governing this forum- you will have your rights to post in this forum revoked. I can't be clearer than that. Behave or face the consequences.

There will be no further warnings on this thread.

Phoebas

listermint wrote: »

Sign up your tenants if you like, Thats illegal.

Under what legislation is it illegal to sign tenants up? *

* Without providing their PPSN to apply for water allowances for them.

Paulw

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

It'll be a specific clause in new lease agreements (the requirement to register....not necessarily to pay - that is the tenant's call)

What do you do with your current tenant who already has a lease?

Also, it seems unclear from IW what happens when someone leaves a premises and someone new takes over. They don't seem to have a clear procedure in place for this.

Seanachai

pwurple wrote: »

Because he/she doesn't want to be stuck with bills and penalties down the road?

Then don't pay the bills or penalties, if hundreds of thousands of people refuse to pay how would they even handle the court cases?. If people hold their ground there is a realistic chance that we can actually crush the charges maybe even bring the government down, if they go down the road of taking the charge through the Revenue then it'll be suicide for them.

The_Morrigan

Seanachai wrote: »

Then don't pay the bills or penalties, if hundreds of thousands of people refuse to pay how would they even handle the court cases?. If people hold their ground there is a realistic chance that we can actually crush the charges maybe even bring the government down, if they go down the road of taking the charge through the Revenue then it'll be suicide for them.

We'll have no talk in here about bringing the Government down.

TrishSimon

Scortho wrote: »

Surely it's the same way as the tenant is liable for the electricity bill as opposed to the landlord?

Yes this answer is totally correct it is the tenants responsibility to register if they so wish for the water charges its exactly the same as elec, gas etc...
Where the tenant does not register the LL will be contacted and they will then have to request the tenant registers.
I am a landlady and I have contacted my tenant and said look its up to yourself we can wait and see what happens with it and then decided, as to date she has not received a water pack to register for the apartment but the simple answer is that its the tentants responsibility.

Bob24

TrishSimon wrote: »

Yes this answer is totally correct it is the tenants responsibility to register if they so wish for the water charges its exactly the same as elec, gas etc...
Where the tenant does not register the LL will be contacted and they will then have to request the tenant registers.
I am a landlady and I have contacted my tenant and said look its up to yourself we can wait and see what happens with it and then decided, as to date she has not received a water pack to register for the apartment but the simple answer is that its the tentants responsibility.

Have you received something as the LL? If neither you nor you tenant have received anything ... I can Irish Water can't really go after anyone?

_oveless_

The landlord/tenant thing is a huge mess, how are individual flats like mine going to be metered? we're all just going to split the bill? and what if myself or another tenant leave before the bill comes? does the next tenant take the hit?

garhjw

_oveless_ wrote: »

The landlord/tenant thing is a huge mess, how are individual flats like mine going to be metered? we're all just going to split the bill? and what if myself or another tenant leave before the bill comes? does the next tenant take the hit?

You will pay an assessed charge. There are a huge number of dwellings that can't be metered.