TUF 19 - Penn, Edgar + Pendred & Fields! **Spoilers**

Davei141

Quality contribution Rusty. I look forward to future posts.

JojoD51

JojoD51 wrote: »

rusty cole wrote: »

OK Rusty! (don't know what your ! after my name means?) There is constant banter and opinions on this thread which I enjoy - what you did was disrespect fighters, their abilities and belittle the obvious skills they have (which they have put everything into for many years). A little bit of respect goes a long way. Thanks for the rundown of your knowledge (google). And I don't read the McGregor thread for the very reason I am disputing your quotes. Now have a good day while I am at home feeling very frustrated.

ah it would have to be google, that old chestnut response from someone who refuses to just be nice and say oh you're a fan then. I'm not about to get booted out taking bait from the likes of you. Disrespecting fighters? if all aspects of my opinion seem pejorative (google) then apologies for hurting your feelings. pistols at dawn I say!! where's my pistol!!!

Davei141

Davei141 wrote: »

Quality contribution Rusty. I look forward to future posts.

thanks buddy, that wasn't sarcasm was it?? ah thanks just the same.

JojoD51

rusty cole wrote: »

JojoD51 wrote: »

ah it would have to be google, that old chestnut response from someone who refuses to just be nice and say oh you're a fan then. I'm not about to get booted out taking bait from the likes of you. Disrespecting fighters? if all aspects of my opinion seem pejorative (google) then apologies for hurting your feelings. pistols at dawn I say!! where's my pistol!!!

Ok Rusty, I will accept that you are a fan, you just don't come across as a very informed one, now as I said have a good day.

JojoD51

JojoD51 wrote: »

rusty cole wrote: »

Ok Rusty, I will accept that you are a fan, you just don't come across as a very informed one, now as I said have a good day.

yayyyy friends again!! have a good day?? how this that work, am I being dismissed or are you getting your coat??? I always get stuck on that one. let's both agree that you admit I'm right eh??

MagicIRL

The broken quote is driving me mad.

pablohoney87

Stop with the snide remarks, sarcasm and bitchy tone guys. Next offender takes a week off

amkin25

rusty cole wrote: »

I wouldn't argue over it but if "camera time" is what you want, go into the big brother house I say.
singling OLE OLE is cringe worthy to be honest. And if you think being all mouth and no trousers will inspire a keen business mind like Dana white to buy irish, then you're wrong IMHO. Maybe keep watching to see if mcgregor delivers, if not then see how far he goes singing our national anthem. it's a fighting competition not a personality/promotions contest. Great if you have charisma but only once you back it up. again, cathal was good but fields was rotten!!

While i don't think Fields has what it takes at this level,i think there is no denying that air time and people knowing ur name will get you fights,how many times did Sonnen jump straight into title fights after practically losing the last fight,there is plenty of examples of this.
Also with the UFC coming to Ireland next month,if it goes well they would likely want some Irish fighters for other Irish cards,and Fields is known now from the show,so they could use him on cards but at some point he would have to step up and win a fight,but they might throw him some easy fights if they think they can draw money off his name,being.
Being known is half the battle in this game.

RoboRat

Being known is half the battle in this game.

In any game to be honest. I remember reading a piece about footballers who stood out, not because of their ability but because of their physical appearance having a better chance of succeeding. Its not always the case but if you get noticed then you have a much better chance of making it.

Most sports stars have publicity agents and there are PR firms dedicated to making them superstars. Look at David Beckham for example, by no means the best player on the planet, in fact I would say quite limited in his abilities but who gets talked about more nowadays... Zizou or Becks??!

amkin25

RoboRat wrote: »

In any game to be honest. I remember reading a piece about footballers who stood out, not because of their ability but because of their physical appearance having a better chance of succeeding. Its not always the case but if you get noticed then you have a much better chance of making it.

Most sports stars have publicity agents and there are PR firms dedicated to making them superstars. Look at David Beckham for example, by no means the best player on the planet, in fact I would say quite limited in his abilities but who gets talked about more nowadays... Zizou or Becks??!

Yeah to some extent but i think the fight game,either boxing or mma more so than other sports,people pay to see someone they like fight but they will pay to someone they hate fight also to see him get a beaten.
Look at Mayweather,its debatable how great he is as an all time fighter,but one thing is certain his fights are all very boring points decisions,but still he makes major pay view sales,a lot on the back of people hoping he loses.

amkin25

amkin25 wrote: »

Yeah to some extent but i think the fight game,either boxing or mma more so than other sports,people pay to see someone they like fight but they will pay to someone they hate fight also to see him get a beaten.
Look at Mayweather,its debatable how great he is as an all time fighter,but one thing is certain his fights are all very boring points decisions,but still he makes major pay view sales,a lot on the back of people hoping he loses.

I don't remember ricky hatton being judged on points, I'm pretty sure he felt the the cold floor for some time by way of a knockout. But yeah I agree, I hated ken shamrock and just tuned in to see ortiz level him one more time. I just hate to think they'd market boring soap stars just for show, I tune in to see a great fight end of story, if there's bad blood AKA sonnen v silva 2, then great but sonnen is a beast. all these lads who are great showmen so to speak have carved careers from early on. as I said, look at pendred and fields respective divisions and ask yourself, can you see them thrive, or just line up as cannon fodder. Id hate to see that happen too.

good to see irish lads in it, yes I agree. Sure john fitch was unreal (still is) but white cut him after I think two losses. WTF! maybe it is becoming more like WWE now.

RoboRat

I just hate to think they'd market boring soap stars just for show, I tune in to see a great fight end of story

They do and will continue to do so because they want a mainstream product and this requires that they pander to the masses.

Most people don't understand grappling so therefore find it hard to appreciate it and think its boring and messy. The term lay and pray gets bandied about every time there is a decent grappling match, granted, sometimes it is just that.

The UFC was originally about the sport but now it's a multi billion dollar industry and its about the brand and they will do whatever is needed to make it as mainstream as possible and this requires shifting the focus from sport to entertainment.

Obviously this doesn't mean the sport side of things is irrelevant, its a very fine balancing act, but you can see it by the fact that Dana is always looking for the finish now, the exciting fighters, the mouthpieces etc. He was never like that in the past and this is because he is focussed on the entertainment side now.

RoboRat

RoboRat wrote: »

They do and will continue to do so because they want a mainstream product and this requires that they pander to the masses.

Most people don't understand grappling so therefore find it hard to appreciate it and think its boring and messy. The term lay and pray gets bandied about every time there is a decent grappling match, granted, sometimes it is just that.

The UFC was originally about the sport but now it's a multi billion dollar industry and its about the brand and they will do whatever is needed to make it as mainstream as possible and this requires shifting the focus from sport to entertainment.

Obviously this doesn't mean the sport side of things is irrelevant, its a very fine balancing act, but you can see it by the fact that Dana is always looking for the finish now, the exciting fighters, the mouthpieces etc. He was never like that in the past and this is because he is focussed on the entertainment side now.

yeah I agree it seems to be heading in that direction alright. have you noticed how there used to be more actual UFC shows and now there's lower key UFC fight nights?
I think the talent pool was being drained or stretched and the pace at which they were turning over shows, was causing too many injuries in big name draws etc. so they make them less frequent and supplement them with fight nights. It's good in one respect because it can groom new talent, rather than keeping a lesser known fighter on the undercards, more exposure for up and comers (OUR OWN EVENT NEXT MONTH), but the talent pool is getting thin these days. the GSP, ladell, ortiz, silva, jackson, couture, hughes, penn, edgar, maynard, etc etc etc days are all kinda gone. maybe a golden era of talent gone by eh?

RoboRat

but the talent pool is getting thin these days. the GSP, ladell, ortiz, silva, jackson, couture, hughes, penn, edgar, maynard, etc etc etc days are all kinda gone. maybe a golden era of talent gone by eh?

I don't think the talent pool is getting thin, quite the opposite actually. I think the gulf in class that used to exist is narrowing. You have to remember that in the days of Couture, Liddel etc, these were guys who were extremely good with their specific strengths... Couture with his grinding game and Liddel with his outstanding striking.

Fighters are now specifically training in MMA, some have never done any specific other Martial Art, so they have an extremely well rounded game. You are finding less and less fighters who are Muay Thai specialists or wrestlers etc and this is making the matches more evenly matched. They may have a style that they rely on (eg Weidman with his wrestling) but they are comfortable with all aspects. The reason why Royce did so well was because he had something that was completely alien to the other fighters and they couldn't figure out the puzzle.

Nowadays the elite or those that are constantly evolving or genuinely unpredictable and being honest, if you put the current champions against the champions of 10 years ago, they would be demolished.

In regards to the fight nights, that is the UFC being far too absorbed in their own brand. They really should have kept strikeforce, the WEC and Pride going and used them for up and coming fighters or fighters that had to prove themselves. The UFC should have remained as the upper echelon and only have about 6 fight cards a year.

MagicIRL

What has any of this got to do with TUF at this stage? Seriously guys.

RoboRat

RoboRat wrote: »

The UFC should have remained as the upper echelon and only have about 6 fight cards a year.

This may be the case from a fans perspective, but from a financial perspective it wouldn't have allowed the company to grow, and the bosses to get richer!
The way to get to more people watching is have more events, and more accessible events in more countries. Their global plan is working, and even though the dilution of quality may turn off some of the old school fans, the amount of new fans coming on board I would assume is worth a lot more.

RoboRat

RoboRat wrote: »

I don't think the talent pool is getting thin, quite the opposite actually. I think the gulf in class that used to exist is narrowing. You have to remember that in the days of Couture, Liddel etc, these were guys who were extremely good with their specific strengths... Couture with his grinding game and Liddel with his outstanding striking.

Fighters are now specifically training in MMA, some have never done any specific other Martial Art, so they have an extremely well rounded game. You are finding less and less fighters who are Muay Thai specialists or wrestlers etc and this is making the matches more evenly matched. They may have a style that they rely on (eg Weidman with his wrestling) but they are comfortable with all aspects. The reason why Royce did so well was because he had something that was completely alien to the other fighters and they couldn't figure out the puzzle.

Nowadays the elite or those that are constantly evolving or genuinely unpredictable and being honest, if you put the current champions against the champions of 10 years ago, they would be demolished.

In regards to the fight nights, that is the UFC being far too absorbed in their own brand. They really should have kept strikeforce, the WEC and Pride going and used them for up and coming fighters or fighters that had to prove themselves. The UFC should have remained as the upper echelon and only have about 6 fight cards a year.

I dunno, there's so many ex wrestlers and NFL players who think "hey I'm an athlete, I can turn my hand to this sport" Brendan shaub for example and they do OK. I like to keep it MMA not boxing and wrestling, which is becoming more the case as you said, they are both sports in their own right. alot of the reason I miss anderson silva, he always went back to martial arts, winning unpredictably with submissions, front kicks etc. It is really becoming a brand but sometimes you see the frustration in white at the lack of talent apparently. I mean look at this years crop right, Vs TUF 1,2,3 etc, which launched kenny florian, mike bisping, ed herman, bonnar, griffin, leban and such. To get back on topic before being banned, this years crop was quite lack lustre. But even saying that, look at how prolific a winner and great martial artist Uriah hall was, it was scary, and he's long been cut!! he just couldnt make the transition from kickboxing to all rounder!
Man he was scary on paper I thought. The look on white and sonnens face after both his knockouts!

Richy06

Uriah Hall fights in two weeks on the UFC's big July 4th card....

Richy06

Richy06 wrote: »

Uriah Hall fights in two weeks on the UFC's big July 4th card....

wow, Id heard form one of the lads here, he'd been culled. That's great, he is brilliant to watch, just had a shaky start. he used to fight on those team america kickboxing things and he's like lightning. He'd do well in K1 maybe.

El Guapo!

Starting to go a bit off topic now lads. It's an interesting topic though so if someone wants to start a new thread on it then go ahead. But let's try keep this thread for TUF related discussion.

JojoD51

Who do we all have winning next week? I am edging towards Van Buren, supposedly a good striker (although haven't seen much to go on as yet).

DeVore

D'ya know what drives me mad in TUF.... when some of them have been knocked out and go on the booze and wreck the sleep of the ones who are still in the competition, sometimes even fighting the next day. Its absolutely disgraceful imho. I dunno if Cathal was bothered by the ruckus but at least Chris seemed mindful of it (if little else haha).
But seriously, there should be an agreement about night-before-a-fight ...

stiffler123

Cathal doesn't seem to have much confidence in his stand up at all. Very much a clinch, take down and grind out a decision type of fighter. If he could get in more offence when he takes it to the ground he would be a lot better. Still, I thought he was unlucky to lose the fight. It was close, but I thought he just edged it.

amkin25

stiffler123 wrote: »

Cathal doesn't seem to have much confidence in his stand up at all. Very much a clinch, take down and grind out a decision type of fighter. If he could get in more offence when he takes it to the ground he would be a lot better. Still, I thought he was unlucky to lose the fight. It was close, but I thought he just edged it.

Yeah i agree,his stand up is poor,he doesn't have the ability or agility you would normally associate with a good fighter and i have to say i doubted his ability to make the step up to the UFC,but in fairness to him he has serious determination i don't think i ever seen anyone so determined to succeed,it might be a cliche but he showed amazing heart and will to win in this fight and showed something worth seeing again.

If you could put a fraction of his determination into succeeding into some of the fighters with talent who lack the drive you would have an amazing fighter,and as much as i think he deserves any and all success he gets for what he puts into it,he does lack some skills that he will never be able to learn,his movement is too robotic he just doesn't have the athleticism and movement required to win a title imho,but to push a quality fighter like this to the brink and arguably should have won shows he has something worthy of a shot in the ufc.

But his UFC debut is a baptism of fire,hopefully the break,and down to training will give him a good shot.I think Mike King is an extremely good fighter and he could have got an easier fight by a long way,i think this is a tough tough fight for him.

Naos

RoboRat wrote: »

Obviously this doesn't mean the sport side of things is irrelevant, its a very fine balancing act, but you can see it by the fact that Dana is always looking for the finish now, the exciting fighters, the mouthpieces etc. He was never like that in the past and this is because he is focussed on the entertainment side now.

I'd say he wasn't like that in the past because there was less decisions in the past. He's looking at this crop of TUF figthers and must be thinking another group of guys who go to non-exciting decision.

Ush1

I'm fairly shocked Cathal has got signed to be honest. I'm guessing it might have a lot to do with padding out the Dublin card and future based European cards.

His performances on TUF have been relatively poor(all the fighters this season have been). From his fights in Cage Warriors he was a good wrestler with good endurance but he looks way below par on TUF.

yeah if you look at that division and try see how he'd perform, he'd be badly beaten to be fair.
I can see him being cannon fodder. it's a shame the most talented guy is also the most obnoxious!! dare I speak his name for fear of being banned!!!

yeah all the fighters proved very poor on the day. slim pickins nowadays I think.
I see Nate the great is back, that's proof in itself pickins are slim!! next it will be paul daily!!!!

Easy Rod

Ush1 wrote: »

I'm fairly shocked Cathal has got signed to be honest. I'm guessing it might have a lot to do with padding out the Dublin card and future based European cards.

His performances on TUF have been relatively poor(all the fighters this season have been). From his fights in Cage Warriors he was a good wrestler with good endurance but he looks way below par on TUF.

He won two fights and narrowly lost the semi-final via split decision?

Below par doesn't make any sense in the slightest.

MagicIRL

Easy Rod wrote: »

He won two fights and narrowly lost the semi-final via split decision?

Below par doesn't make any sense in the slightest.

But he didn't knock anyone out! No KO = Terrible fight. Herp derp. :cool:

Ush1

Easy Rod wrote: »

He won two fights and narrowly lost the semi-final via split decision?

Below par doesn't make any sense in the slightest.

What two fights?

He eeked out a boring decision after being almost ko'd in his first fight, respect for hanging in there but he was also very lucky.

Then lost the second fight(also very boring).

I've been watching MMA a long time and if Cathal wasn't Irish I really would be surprised they signed him.