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Nelson Mandela has passed

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    #362
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,948 ✭✭✭OldRio


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Germans were the ones the were fighting against werent they?

    or maybe you think the allies bombed germany in order to save the jews?




    I dont have an objection to the use of force as such...what i do object to is the eulogising a man capable of extreme terrorism as some sort of peacefull here.

    Obviously 'republicans' are not averse to a spot of civilian "collateral damage" but watching human body parts being scopped up with shovels from the streets throughout the 70's and 80's makes me deplore those who bomb civilians,for whatever reason.

    I'm curious..had Mandella been a white man convicted of attempting to bomb people in Zimbabwe( a country with a Govt-sanctioned anti-white policy) would you still eulogise him as some sort of hero?

    I really would educate yourself about the history of South Africa. Also check out Rhodesia. Fascinating stuff. Read and learn because you are coming across as rather ignorant.


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    #363
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Good article on the relationship between the provos and nelson mandella.

    http://ansionnachfionn.com/2011/08/29/black-provos-the-anc-and-the-ira
    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    Its just a discussion Fred, you obviously can't think outside of the provos and Adams.
    OldRio wrote: »
    Please show me where I said that ?

    you were very quick to discredit an article written in the guardian, but not the claim that Mandela and Adams were buddies. Which was based on an article from a republican source.

    Why?


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    #364
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,948 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    you were very quick to discredit an article written in the guardian, but not the claim that Mandela and Adams were buddies. Which was based on an article from a republican source.

    Why?

    Firstly the article written in the guardian is laughable and to be honest it is frankly embarrassing

    As for the second I never read it and didn't claim to.


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    #365
    Witchie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,597 ✭✭✭Witchie


    A book of condolences will be opened at the entrance to Flemings Supermarket in Monaghan Town from around midday tomorrow for President Nelson Mandela. As a small border town it is felt that we have a lot to thank Mr Mandela for as his involvement in the peace process has had a positive impact on all our lives here.


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    #366
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Germans were the ones the were fighting against werent they?

    or maybe you think the allies bombed germany in order to save the jews?

    No, they bombed it because of the activities of the Nazi regime.

    chopper6 wrote: »

    I dont have an objection to the use of force as such...what i do object to is the eulogising a man capable of extreme terrorism as some sort of peacefull here.

    Considering the way you trot out 'but what if it was a white man' I think I can guess your objections allright.
    chopper6 wrote: »
    I'm curious..had Mandella been a white man convicted of attempting to bomb people in Zimbabwe( a country with a Govt-sanctioned anti-white policy) would you still eulogise him as some sort of hero?

    Yes, I'd endorse armed resistance to that regime.


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    #367
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,948 ✭✭✭OldRio


    OldRio wrote: »
    Long read and then not one piece of evidence to support this bizarre theory.
    The right wing are in some spin regarding the death of Mandela.
    I do remember some members of the Tory party wearing badges with 'Hang Nelson Mandela' Very classy.

    Fred Thats my post on your link.


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    #368
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, they bombed it because of the activities of the Nazi regime.

    Yes..the Nazis were bombing them.

    A lot of people seem to think that WW2 was a battle of ideology versus evil...it was a war where one country felt it had rights to another country and the subsequent sytem of alliances threatened other countries.

    The Nazis in aspect were similar to the russians under Stalin..the both employed terror,secret police,gulags,executions,pogroms and anti-semetism but the russians were allied to the brits,french and americans so what went on in thier country didnt matter.

    Nodin wrote: »
    Considering the way you trot out 'but what if it was a white man' I think I can guess your objections allright..


    Yes,i am a white man...i dont feel i should have to actually be ashamed of the fact though.

    I am not however,and you seem to be hinting this...some sort of white supremacist...i just like to challange the very facistic veiws of the far left who seem to suggest we should be in sackcloth and ashes for the sins of every corrupt regime or racist drunkard.

    In the case of Mandela i see the far-left brigade tripping over themselves to praise mandella as a hero and humbly beg forgivness for the sins of apartheid.

    The fact is that mandela ose up against an opressive regime and he did so through violence...this last part ha been almost written out of any discussion on the man and anybody,like myself who mentions it is indirectly accused of racism/facism/bigotry by people with some sort of axe to grind about perceived racism(whichthey see everywhere).


    Nodin wrote: »
    Yes, I'd endorse armed resistance to that regime.

    The time for that is long past...no other country intervened and there were no concerts in the park to raise funds...it's jsut not the same whn a white minority is being opressed...i say this without any racial bias or prejudice but it is a fact.


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    #369
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    OldRio wrote: »
    Firstly the article written in the guardian is laughable and to be honest it is frankly embarrassing

    As for the second I never read it and didn't claim to.

    why is it laughable? because of your preconceived ideas?

    anyway, it's not relevant to the thread, no more than the claim that Adams and Mandela were mates.


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    #370
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    If anyone has an hour or so to spare listening to some good music.

    I was at this concert with a couple of friends. It was one of the most memorable days of my teens. There was an amazing feeling of solidarity that day, and an awful of of love and friendship, although that could have been the rather large ganja cloud floating over Clapham Common!



    bah, not working for some reason

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVJGt1bwJZY&feature=youtu.be


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    #371
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Yes,i am a white man...i dont feel i should have to actually be ashamed of the fact though.

    I am not however,and you seem to be hinting this...some sort of white supremacist...i just like to challange the very facistic veiws of the far left who seem to suggest we should be in sackcloth and ashes for the sins of every corrupt regime or racist drunkard..

    As nobody has ever said this, I'd say keep tilting at that windmill.
    chopper6 wrote: »
    In the case of Mandela i see the far-left brigade tripping over themselves to praise mandella as a hero and humbly beg forgivness for the sins of apartheid..

    More crap that nobody said......
    chopper6 wrote: »
    The fact is that mandela ose up against an opressive regime and he did so through violence..

    And fair fucking play to him for doing so. Other than pacifists, anyone who objects to such resistance must be deeply suspect.


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    #372
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,948 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Only one of us having preconceived ideas Fred.
    Read your posts addressed to myself as evidence.
    Badly played Sir.
    Tut tut

    I read the link. Like I said, not one ounce of proof on the theory.

    I do remember those 'Hang Mandela' badges though. Do you?


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    #373
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    Nodin wrote: »



    anyone who objects to such resistance must be deeply suspect.



    That sounds like something Himmler would have said.

    'If you dont agree with me you must be up to something".

    Give it a rest and lighten up.


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    #374
    Rilgar
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭Rilgar


    Rest in peace, oh gentle soul.


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    #375
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    chopper6 wrote: »
    That sounds like something Himmler would have said.

    'If you dont agree with me you must be up to something".

    No, it's entirely true. If you've no objection to violence per se but have an objection to the fight against apartheid, then its a fairly dubious position to hold.

    You dragging in "but what if it was a white man" helps the way you come across not the slightest. Neither does bringing up things that no one has said.


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    #376
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, it's entirely true. If you've no objection to violence per se but have an objection to the fight against apartheid, then its a fairly dubious position to hold.
    .


    No. As i've already said i have no objection to an armed struggle as such but there seems to be an idea that mandela was never involved in an armed struggle and that he was uniquely a man of peace.

    This is not true...he later renounced violence and for that he is to be applauded but he was no saint at the outset and the faux-outrage in pointing out his terrorist background is what bugs me.

    And for what it's worth i've met many white south africans over the years and they werent particularly pleasant people...they start talking about "kaffirs" at the drop of a hat with an intensity and hatred that's quite shocking.


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    #377
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    OldRio wrote: »
    Only one of us having preconceived ideas Fred.
    Read your posts addressed to myself as evidence.
    Badly played Sir.
    Tut tut

    I read the link. Like I said, not one ounce of proof on the theory.

    I do remember those 'Hang Mandela' badges though. Do you?

    Are there two Oldrios on here?

    Maybe you could say why you think the article is bizarre and embarrassing?

    No, I don't remember the hang Mandela badges, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were. There were a lot of opposite forces at play in the 80s. Personally I was more interested in putting superglue in Barclays atms, that was my personal input to the anti apartheid movement, as well as attending the march and concert I linked to above.


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    #378
    getzls
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 806 ✭✭✭getzls


    Allyall wrote: »
    15th. After a week of events around his hometown.
    15th?

    Oh ****.:mad:


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    #379
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Why then was mandella convicted of planning to blow up a shopping centre full of people?
    Convicted by a corrupt racist regime that treated black people as scum and slaves. You may suck up the opinions of this evil and sick regime. I do not.


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    #380
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    OldRio wrote: »
    I really would educate yourself about the history of South Africa. Also check out Rhodesia. Fascinating stuff. Read and learn because you are coming across as rather ignorant.
    Ignorant and completely lacking any kind of factual information.


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    #381
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    chopper6 wrote: »
    No. As i've already said i have no objection to an armed struggle as such but there seems to be an idea that mandela was never involved in an armed struggle and that he was uniquely a man of peace.

    This is not true...he later renounced violence and for that he is to be applauded but he was no saint at the outset and the faux-outrage in pointing out his terrorist background is what bugs me.

    And for what it's worth i've met many white south africans over the years and they werent particularly pleasant people...they start talking about "kaffirs" at the drop of a hat with an intensity and hatred that's quite shocking.



    He never renounced violence - he didn't take vengeance and encouraged forgiveness after the conflict ended. Given the history of SA that took courage.


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    #382
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Nodin wrote: »
    He never renounced violence - he didn't take vengeance and encouraged forgiveness after the conflict ended. Given the history of SA that took courage.

    For me, it's the way he managed the peace far outweighs anything that happened before his imprisonment.

    It wasn't just blacks and whites, there were bitter rivals within different black groups that cost thousands of lives and yet he seemed.to bring them all together.


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    #383
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, it's entirely true. If you've no objection to violence per se but have an objection to the fight against apartheid, then its a fairly dubious position to hold.

    You dragging in "but what if it was a white man" helps the way you come across not the slightest. Neither does bringing up things that no one has said.

    You have to look at these comments in a wider perspective. Some people know they are small people. When a truly great man is being discussed, their only way to deal with it is to try to drag him down to their level and smear him with any BS they can make up.
    Mandela was involved in an active and totalyl justified violent campaign to free his people. But it was a campaign almost exclusively against infrastructure. Yes there were mistakes that cost lives, but unlike the IRA terrorist serial killers who glorified in murdering and torturing as many innocent people as they could possibly manage, Mandela's policy was the exact opposite.


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    #384
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    For me, it's the way he managed the peace far outweighs anything that happened before his imprisonment.

    It wasn't just blacks and whites, there were bitter rivals within different black groups that cost thousands of lives and yet he seemed.to bring them all together.


    Indeed. It could have ended very badly with the Zulu's, or the group classified as 'coloured'.


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    #385
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    For me, it's the way he managed the peace far outweighs anything that happened before his imprisonment.

    It wasn't just blacks and whites, there were bitter rivals within different black groups that cost thousands of lives and yet he seemed.to bring them all together.
    Indeed. He raged a vigorous campaign from before and during his imprisonment to stop violence against innocent people on any side, and succeeded to an extraordinary extent.
    The black people of SA were totally justified in planning retribution against the evil regime that the white people maintained. They had every reason to feel entitled to slaughter hundreds of thousands. One man said no. One man taught them that forgiveness and reconciliation was the most effective weapon against the hate of the whites. He proved that that was so and that made the victory over the white regime more glorious and comprehensive than it could ever have been. De Klerk and his white world were thoroughly destroyed and shamed by forgiveness and reconciliation and generosity and compassion.


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    #386
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    Here's an interesting article

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/12/05/don-t-sanitize-nelson-mandela-he-s-honored-now-but-was-hated-then.html


    It's saying that his previous history as a firebrand should not be forgotten because that shaped what he would later become.

    I must hand it to him,he had an extraordinary determination and 27 years in prison failed to break him yet he left without a trace of bitterness.


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    #387
    sue_me
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16 ✭sue_me


    chopper6 wrote: »
    No. As i've already said i have no objection to an armed struggle as such but there seems to be an idea that mandela was never involved in an armed struggle and that he was uniquely a man of peace.

    This is not true...he later renounced violence and for that he is to be applauded but he was no saint at the outset and the faux-outrage in pointing out his terrorist background is what bugs me.

    And for what it's worth i've met many white south africans over the years and they werent particularly pleasant people...they start talking about "kaffirs" at the drop of a hat with an intensity and hatred that's quite shocking.


    reports ive read say he was not calling the shots ( quite literally ) immedietley prior to being imprisoned and afterwards , that the hard men saw him as a useful political - public figurehead , this view might be cemented by reports that mandella once said he was glad he was arrested as he was so angry , he was willing to do engage in serious violence

    I realise that may be hearsay but their is rarely a don at the top pulling the strings in these kind of circumstances


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    #388
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    sue_me wrote: »
    reports ive read say he was not calling the shots ( quite literally ) immedietley prior to being imprisoned and afterwards , that the hard men saw him as a useful political - public figurehead , this view might be cemented by reports that mandella once said he was glad he was arrested as he was so angry , he was willing to do engage in serious violence

    I realise that may be hearsay but their is rarely a don at the top pulling the strings in these kind of circumstances


    Course he wasnt calling the shots...he was no doubt railroaded as a particularly dangerous man but in being inprisoned whilst retaining his dignity he become something else entirely.


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    #389
    sue_me
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16 ✭sue_me


    chopper6 wrote: »
    Course he wasnt calling the shots...he was no doubt railroaded as a particularly dangerous man but in being inprisoned whilst retaining his dignity he become something else entirely.

    im attempting to cast doubt on the accusations that he was at one time a man of serious violence

    reports ive read suggest he wasn't really involved in physical force politics , that's not to say he wasn't an associate of those who did engage in violence but the point is , mandella ( like adams etc ) didn't control the hard men with a remote control , they were the main men in the public eye but they had no absolute power

    im cynical enough to believe that violence is nesccessery for almost everything in this world , bar Gandhi , who has ever managed to move an immovable malevolent force without giving them a bloody nose


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    #390
    chopper6
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭chopper6


    sue_me wrote: »
    im attempting to cast doubt on the accusations that he was at one time a man of serious violence

    reports ive read suggest he wasn't really involved in physical force politics , that's not to say he wasn't an associate of those who did engage in violence but the point is , mandella ( like adams etc ) didn't control the hard men with a remote control , they were the main men in the public eye but they had no absolute power

    im cynical enough to believe that violence is nesccessery for almost everything in this world , bar Gandhi , who has ever managed to move an immovable malevolent force without giving them a bloody nose


    Violence of course is necessary...it's an unfortunate fact of life.

    But let those who were violent be remebered as being violent...it takes courage to actually fight for your beliefs and few of history's great names were actualy completely opposed to it.

    My point is that Mandela was no saint,he was not always a man of peace but that by itself is nothing that needs to be hidden.


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    #391
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    Clandestine wrote: »
    So the end justifies the means? I'm sure all those civilians killed at the hands of his group Umkhonto we Sizwe agree with you.

    South Africa is going the way of Rhodesia. A once prosperous nation heading straight into the garbage,

    Actually I know of half a dozen Irish people who emigrated there about 30 / 40 years ago. I do not know any Irish people who have migrated to there in the past few decades, but there are more than a few south Africans in Ireland saying how S. Africa is going downhill fast this past decade or so. Here in Australia there are lots of S. Africans glad they got out. Hope South Africa does not turn in to another Rhodesia.


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