Nelson Mandela has passed

Piliger

chopper6 wrote: »

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Of course they do - that is why we universally recognise self defence as perfectly justifiable.

Piliger

Nodin wrote: »

Being obtuse there. There was no justification for the Iraq war. Al Qaeda aren't fighting US imperialism, they're (apparently) fighting for a world caliphate.

And murdering millions of fellow muslims. They fight for no one but themselves. When people cannot distinguish these situations, they have completely lost any sense of judgement.

chopper6

Piliger wrote: »

Of course they do - that is why we universally recognise self defence as perfectly justifiable.

So how does murdering innocent women and children equate to self defence?

Piliger

chopper6 wrote: »

So how does murdering innocent women and children equate to self defence?

Mandela did no such thing.

chopper6

Piliger wrote: »

Mandela did no such thing.

Why was he imprisoned?

HansHolzel

chopper6 wrote: »

So how does murdering innocent women and children equate to self defence?

When it's Israel and the white SA regime murdering GUILTY women and children!

Karl Stein

Let's not forget the scumbags like Thatcher and Reagan who colluded with the terrorist South African regime. The only reason these supporters of terrorist death squads eventually got on board the Mandela wagon was because popular support in their own countries forced them to.

Piliger

chopper6 wrote: »

Why was he imprisoned?

Convicted by a corrupt racist regime that treated black people as scum and slaves. You may suck up the opinions of this evil and sick regime. I do not.

HansHolzel

Netanyahu says Mandela was his inspiration. Shimon Peres, Naftali Bennet etc are coming out with similar sh*t.

Puke.

They even gave the white SA regime NUKES ffs.

Fratton Fred

Carlos Roca wrote: »

Let's not forget the scumbags like Thatcher and Reagan who colluded with the terrorist South African regime. The only reason these supporters of terrorist death squads eventually got on board the Mandela wagon was because popular support in their own countries forced them to.

I was very much opposed to pretty much everything Thatcher did,.particularly her stance on sanctions.

That, however, is a crass rewriting of history.

chopper6

Piliger wrote: »

Convicted by a corrupt racist regime that treated black people as scum and slaves. You may suck up the opinions of this evil and sick regime. I do not.

I in no way condoned or condone the apartheid regime...it was put in place to subjugate the blacks and cape-coloured after the boer war. It's not fair to say that is was an evil regime as such, many black South Africans at the upper echelons if society did very well indeed from it as of course did the whites. It was the policing of townships such as Sowetto where black people lived in shanty owns that marked the brutality of the regime..even so bombing villains will tend to harden a governments resolve in dealing with terrorists and mandellas was released because of a softening of attitudes and his becoming a cause célèbre amongst left-leaning whites.

.jacksparrow.

Good article on the relationship between the provos and nelson mandella.

http://ansionnachfionn.com/2011/08/29/black-provos-the-anc-and-the-ira

AerynSun

chopper6 wrote: »

... It was the policing of townships such as Sowetto where black people lived in shanty owns that marked the brutality of the regime... mandellas was released because of a softening of attitudes and his becoming a cause célèbre amongst left-leaning whites.

The truth is so much more complicated than this broad-brush-strokes overview! Everywhere people lived, there were divisions: white people on this side of the fence and black people over there. And woe betide the black driver of a school bus full of white children who DARED to drive those passengers into a 'township' to get his duty slip signed before setting off on a 35km trip to the next town to take those white children to their privileged schools. Never mind that the children loved him and called him 'Chief', your man lost his job for that, and not only lost his job...

Public toilets: 'Whites' this side, 'Non Whites' that side. Need labourers to build your house? Drive to the outskirts of town to pick up workers who sit along the side of the road willing to take any kind of work for a few quid, but don't let those people sit on the same barrel while you eat your lunch. Need some guy to fill your car with petrol? Sure, don't bother tipping him too much unless he's washed your windscreen, topped up your water, put air in your tyres, then throw him a few cents and expect him to thank you. Cleaning lady? Sure let her mind the children and clean the house, and expect her to sleep in the 'maid's quarters' (outhouse) because you didn't let her go home at a reasonable hour and it's not safe for a black woman to be out walking after dark. She wants a friend to visit her? No way in hell!

Those local youths? Round them up and take them out of town onto a dusty rural road and fire off a few rounds of bullets at their feet, laugh at them while you tell them to jump up and down. That's not really fear in their eyes, they're just pretending.

The regime was brutal, but so were the people who lived privileged lives in that world thanks to the unjust system that gave them permission to do that.

When you say "cause célèbre amongst left-leaning whites", I think you mean people's consciences finally started getting at them, the realisation of what we were doing to each other, we knew it had to stop, we knew we had to change. We just didn't know how. And we were scared of what would happen if we tried to change the way things were. It took one brave man to turn the tide, to stand his ground and say "I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear."

When Mandela walked free, he walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to his freedom and he knew if he didn't leave his bitterness and hatred behind, he'd still be in prison. Because of his courage in choosing to forgive, many white people (not just left-leaning liberals - but dyed-in-the-wool racists too!) breathed a sigh of grateful relief because in forgiving his oppressors he gave us permission to learn to do things differently. We are still learning. But we ARE learning. I will always be grateful to Tata Madiba for that gift.

BMMachine

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Good article on the relationship between the provos and nelson mandella.

http://ansionnachfionn.com/2011/08/29/black-provos-the-anc-and-the-ira

ugh.
just ugh.

Nodin

chopper6 wrote: »

Why was he imprisoned?

For fighting a vile overtly racist regime.

Chopper6 wrote:

in no way condoned or condone the apartheid regime...it was put in place
to subjugate the blacks and cape-coloured after the boer war.

No, it was introduced in 1948.

.jacksparrow.

BMMachine wrote: »

ugh.
just ugh.

The truth sometimes is hard for people to swallow, but its true, nelson and Gerry were great friends, and nelson didn't agree with the provos putting their arms beyond use.

BMMachine

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

The truth sometimes is hard for people to swallow, but its true, nelson and Gerry were great friends, and nelson didn't agree with the provos putting their arms beyond use.

maybe he didnt know that they were just gang leaders

HansHolzel

Nodin wrote: »

No, it was introduced in 1948.

But racial segregation was dominant, even in a less formal way, long before that.

tayto lover

A great man has died R.I.P.


But is there need for such saturation on R.T.E.?

Femme_Fatale

It'd be nice if people put Mandela's actions in context - you know, considered the organised terrorism that was apartheid, but nah... that'd be no fun.

Internet is all about looking bad-ass and against-the-grain. :cool:

chopper6

Nodin wrote: »

For fighting a vile overtly racist regime.



No, it was introduced in 1948.

Which was after the Boer war was it not?

Nodin

HansHolzel wrote: »

But racial segregation was dominant, even in a less formal way, long before that.

O yes. In a bit of dark comedy, it was realised that the previous institutional racism wasn't racist or systematic enough, as those inferior yet crafty natives kept getting around it. There was a thriving urban black population pre-1948, which was deliberately and systematically destroyed.

chopper6

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

It'd be nice if people put Mandela's actions in context - you know, considered the organised terrorism that was apartheid, but nah... that'd be no fun.

Internet is all about looking bad-ass and against-the-grain. :cool:

I'm pretty sure most of the hand wringers and those 'mourning' mandella weren't even born in the 80' much less know anything about SA other than 'apartheid is bad m'kay'

Iwasfrozen

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Internet is all about looking bad-ass and against-the-grain. :cool:

Says the guy who's been purposefully going against the grain to promote his republican agenda since the poor guy died.

chopper6

Nodin wrote: »

O yes. In a bit of dark comedy, it was realised that the previous institutional racism wasn't racist or systematic enough, as those inferior yet crafty natives kept getting around it. There was a thriving urban black population pre-1948, which was deliberately and systematically destroyed.

The population of blacks was systematically destroyed?

Never heard that before...but some must've survived this genocide right?

Nodin

chopper6 wrote: »

Which was after the Boer war was it not?

The last boer war ended in 1902. You might as well say after WW1, after they killed jesus, after the dinosaurs.

Nodin

chopper6 wrote: »

The population of blacks was systematically destroyed?

Never heard that before...but some must've survived this genocide right?

The black population was removed from the urban centres and relocated to townships. Stop being obtuse.

chopper6 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure most of the hand wringers and those 'mourning' mandella weren't even born in the 80' much less know anything about SA other than 'apartheid is bad m'kay'?

So apartheid wasn't bad? Are they incorrect in some way?

chopper6

Nodin wrote: »

The last boer war ended in 1902. You might as well say after WW1, after they killed jesus, after the dinosaurs.

So 50 years and 60 million years are all the same to you?

Nodin

chopper6 wrote: »

So 50 years and 60 million years are all the same to you?

Saying "after" implies "soon after".

chopper6

Nodin wrote: »

The black population was removed from the urban centres and relocated to townships. Stop being obtuse

But you said they were 'systematically destroyed'...