Nelson Mandela has passed

opr

I don't think you understand what Zizek is trying to say in that paragraph.

If Mandela was not biter about how the country is now then he isn't half the man I think he was. To not be bitter about the state of SF after the struggle it has endured would be a grave mistake. That isn't bitterness towards any class, race etc but towards the lack of progress towards the ideals behind the class war of a socially just society. That is what the fight was for

Patrick Bond gives a really concise analysis of how it all went (economically) terribly wrong during the transition period (The Elite Transition) and Mandela's role in it. The basic argument being that they (ANC) were politically versed but had no good grasp of economics. Plus many Government folks got physically shipped to Washington for workshops on neolib economics. Not to mention that the Rand-currency got viscously attacked every time Mandela floated the serious idea of more socialist legislation.

If you look at people who have actually tried to enact proper social change, they got destroyed by Western media. Chavez is one of the most recent examples. The reason Zizek talks about his rise as a symbol being somewhat proof of his failure is because it's true. He was all too prepared to surrender much of the ANC's original social and economic justice platform and in effect became an economic neoliberal. That kind of playing ball within the geo-political arena meant that he got white washed into saint hood. His symbolic victory obscures what was defeat of the ideas behind his social change.

Opr

old hippy

Yellow121 wrote: »

I'm sure you meant to say the British empire instead of the catholic church but you failed to realise the British are still in Ireland.

Indeed they are. But the poster meant the stranglehold the RCC had on Ireland.

Piliger

Yellow121 wrote: »

I'm sure you meant to say the British empire instead of the catholic church but you failed to realise the British are still in Ireland.

Wrong. I said the catholic church and I meant the Catholic church. And the British are gone from Ireland.

Piliger

opr wrote: »

I don't think you understand what Zizek is trying to say in that paragraph.

If Mandela was not biter about how the country is now then he isn't half the man I think he was. To not be bitter about the state of SF after the struggle it has endured would be a grave mistake. That isn't bitterness towards any class, race etc but towards the lack of progress towards the ideals behind the class war of a socially just society. That is what the fight was for

No it wasn't. Mandela's fight was to liberate the black people and to have a country where all colours were equal. Assigning these fictional issues to Mandela is a joke. And based on his life's work he must have and should have and did die a very satisfied and happy man.

If you look at people who have actually tried to enact proper social change, they got destroyed by Western media. Chavez is one of the most recent examples.

Chavez is just an ignorant thug, and a cheap brutal dictator that fixed elections consistently.

The reason Zizek talks about his rise as a symbol being somewhat proof of his failure is because it's true. He was all too prepared to surrender much of the ANC's original social and economic justice platform and in effect became an economic neoliberal. That kind of playing ball within the geo-political arena meant that he got white washed into saint hood. His symbolic victory obscures what was defeat of the ideas behind his social change.

Idiotic fiction driven by blind political dogma and wishful thinking.

chopper6

Looks like the whole sorry circus of Mandela's passing will be remembered for one thing: The bloke signing gibberish at the state funeral.


That's what I call balance and equilibrium haha.

Nodin

chopper6 wrote: »

Looks like the whole sorry circus of Mandela's passing will be remembered for one thing: The bloke signing gibberish at the state funeral.


That's what I call balance and equilibrium haha.

Yeah, very amusing.

chopper6

Nodin wrote: »

Yeah, very amusing.

It is...the funeral consisted of murderers,despots,war criminals,lunatics,tablod journalists and Bono...all feigning the utmost grief and dignity whilst this clown (who had apparantly got high level security clearance) was having a grand old time making funny hand gestures to the televised world.

Apart from stealing the limelight at the media circus he gave a bit of insight into the professionalism of the SA security,media and to some extent government.

Witchie

chopper6 wrote: »

It is...the funeral consisted of murderers,despots,war criminals,lunatics,tablod journalists and Bono...all feigning the utmost grief and dignity whilst this clown (who had apparantly got high level security clearance) was having a grand old time making funny hand gestures to the televised world.

Apart from stealing the limelight at the media circus he gave a bit of insight into the professionalism of the SA security,media and to some extent government.

Clearly an intelligent argument. Especially when the funeral is on Sunday and that was a memorial service.

No matter your opinion on him as a man he made people think differently and has made others work towards a better world and for that he deserves respect and love.

I was invited to the South African Embassy's memorial service on Thursday night in St Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin and it was an amazing evening. The people he touched, the lessons we have learned, no matter what, he is a beacon of light to guide us on how we should treat each other.

I have never understood how anyone can judge someone on their skin colour or their circumstances of birth and I will forever continue to fight for equality for all. Thank you Madiba for shining your light in my life.

chopper6

Witchie wrote: »

Clearly an intelligent argument. Especially when the funeral is on Sunday and that was a memorial service.

No matter your opinion on him as a man he made people think differently and has made others work towards a better world and for that he deserves respect and love.

I was invited to the South African Embassy's memorial service on Thursday night in St Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin and it was an amazing evening. The people he touched, the lessons we have learned, no matter what, he is a beacon of light to guide us on how we should treat each other.

I have never understood how anyone can judge someone on their skin colour or their circumstances of birth and I will forever continue to fight for equality for all. Thank you Madiba for shining your light in my life.

Was that bloke signing in the background?

Witchie

chopper6 wrote: »

Was that bloke signing in the background?

No.

The Golden Miller

Piliger wrote: »

And the British are gone from Ireland.

Are they? Last time I looked at the map, there was a big line through the north of the country. Ireland is an island and Britain still has a presence in it. Whether you agree it's right or wrong is one thing, but quit this nonsense that Ireland is and only is 26 counties. It's 32 and its divided. You're only lying to yourself saying otherwise

padd b1975

chopper6 wrote: »

Looks like the whole sorry circus of Mandela's passing will be remembered for one thing: The bloke signing gibberish at the state funeral.


That's what I call balance and equilibrium haha.

Steady on there!

I backed the winner in the 3.30 at Kempton Park on his recommendation.

Piliger

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Are they? Last time I looked at the map, there was a big line through the north of the country. Ireland is an island and Britain still has a presence in it. Whether you agree it's right or wrong is one thing, but quit this nonsense that Ireland is and only is 26 counties. It's 32 and its divided. You're only lying to yourself saying otherwise

Ireland is 26 counties and the rest are part of the UK. I don't give a flying F about your fantasies.

Piliger

Witchie wrote: »

Clearly an intelligent argument. Especially when the funeral is on Sunday and that was a memorial service.

No matter your opinion on him as a man he made people think differently and has made others work towards a better world and for that he deserves respect and love.

I was invited to the South African Embassy's memorial service on Thursday night in St Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin and it was an amazing evening. The people he touched, the lessons we have learned, no matter what, he is a beacon of light to guide us on how we should treat each other.

I have never understood how anyone can judge someone on their skin colour or their circumstances of birth and I will forever continue to fight for equality for all. Thank you Madiba for shining your light in my life.

Very well said.

harryr711

Gerry Adams was chosen to take part in a guard of honour for Nelson Mandela in South Africa this morning as part of the official ANC ceremony.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkFAeruvv4s

http://www.thejournal.ie/gerry-adams-guard-of-honour-nelson-mandela-1222286-Dec2013/

Gerry Adams picked for guard of honour for Mandela

The Sinn Féin president said he was honoured and privileged to be chosen to take part in the ceremony in South Africa.

SINN FÉIN PRESIDENT Gerry Adams was chosen to take part in a guard of honour for Nelson Mandela in South Africa this morning.

The Louth TD said that he was “privileged” to be part of the official ANC ceremony after the body of the former leader was handed over by the South African military to his former political party.

More than 1,000 members of the ANC, including president Jacob Zuma, attended the event which included a multi-faith service and a musical tribute.

Sinn Féin party colleague Richard McAuley – the frequently-mentioned “RG” in Gerry Adams’s tweets – also took part in the ceremony.

Adams tweeted yesterday that Mandela was his hero and that he was honoured to be in South Africa.

“We were honoured and privileged to be part of [the] Guard of Honour for Madiba today,” Adams said.

Nelson Mandela will be buried in his home village of Qunu following a state funeral tomorrow.

A military aircraft carrying Mandela’s casket this afternoon arrived in his native Eastern Cape province ahead of tomorrow’s burial.

More than 100,000 people are estimated to have seen the former president’s body lying in state in Pretoria over the last three days.

nacho libre

opr wrote: »

If Nelson Mandela really had won, he wouldn't be seen as a universal hero.



Opr

I'm afraid he is right. Bill O'Reilly's comments about how Nelson used to be a commie says it all. The likes of him and the Tory old guard would not be praising Nelson had he not largely abandoned the policies of the ANC upon his release.

It's interesting the way Lord Renwick boldly claims Margaret was instrumental in ending Apartheid.

Piliger

nacho libre wrote: »

I'm afraid he is right. Bill O'Reilly's comments about how Nelson used to be a commie says it all. The likes of him and the Tory old guard would not be praising Nelson had he not largely abandoned the policies of the ANC upon his release.

Yes they would. Because he never did. Your grasp of where Mandela came from and the reason why he was labelled with this commie nonsense is clearly challenged.

It's interesting the way Lord Renwick boldly claims Margaret was instrumental in ending Apartheid.

Because it was partially true. Thatcher did not support the Whites i order to oppose the removal of Apartheid. The cold war was a big deal. She believed the best way to end it was to engage with it and did not support sanctions. It was her opinion and it's for history to decide if it worked or not.

Rascasse

Thatcher was possibly the most important foreigner trying to end apartheid in the 80’s. The left are generally incapable of saying anything nice about her, and certainly not about her work to free Mandela, so it’s good to see Renwick give her credit. Makes a change from the nonsense about Cameron producing “Hang Mandela” posters.

From privately lobbying Botha to release Mandela to facilitating secret talks between the NP and ANC in the UK, she certainly did her bit.

opr

nacho libre wrote: »

I'm afraid he is right. Bill O'Reilly's comments about how Nelson used to be a commie says it all. The likes of him and the Tory old guard would not be praising Nelson had he not largely abandoned the policies of the ANC upon his release.

It's interesting the way Lord Renwick boldly claims Margaret was instrumental in ending Apartheid.

Ronnie Kasrils, former deputy minister in the Mandela administration has been banging that drum for quite a while now.

Written 6 months ago - How the ANC's Faustian pact sold out South Africa's poorest

All means to eradicate poverty, which was Mandela's and the ANC's sworn promise to the "poorest of the poor", were lost in the process. Nationalisation of the mines and heights of the economy as envisaged by the Freedom charter was abandoned. The ANC accepted responsibility for a vast apartheid-era debt, which should have been cancelled. A wealth tax on the super-rich to fund developmental projects was set aside, and domestic and international corporations, enriched by apartheid, were excused from any financial reparations. Extremely tight budgetary obligations were instituted that would tie the hands of any future governments; obligations to implement a free-trade policy and abolish all forms of tariff protection in keeping with neo-liberal free trade fundamentals were accepted. Big corporations were allowed to shift their main listings abroad. In Terreblanche's opinion, these ANC concessions constituted "treacherous decisions that [will] haunt South Africa for generations to come".

An ANC-Communist party leadership eager to assume political office (myself no less than others) readily accepted this devil's pact, only to be damned in the process. It has bequeathed an economy so tied in to the neoliberal global formula and market fundamentalism that there is very little room to alleviate the plight of most of our people.

Full article - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/24/anc-faustian-pact-mandela-fatal-error

Opr

The Golden Miller

Piliger wrote: »

Ireland is 26 counties and the rest are part of the UK. I don't give a flying F about your fantasies.

Scotland is also part of the UK genius. So going by your logic, 6 counties in Ireland are also past of the UK, hence 6 counties have a British presence, making your original comment i replied to wrong

Nodin

Rascasse wrote: »

Thatcher was possibly the most important foreigner trying to end apartheid in the 80’s. The left are generally incapable of saying anything nice about her, and certainly not about her work to free Mandela, so it’s good to see Renwick give her credit. Makes a change from the nonsense about Cameron producing “Hang Mandela” posters.

From privately lobbying Botha to release Mandela to facilitating secret talks between the NP and ANC in the UK, she certainly did her bit.

"credit" for blocking sanctions, "credit" for keeping them classed as "terrorists"....my arse.

rhapsodyinblue

I was watching RTE's broadcast of Nelson Mandela's funeral from 6am this morning. I greatly admired this remarkable statesman, as I think most people did. I was shocked however, that RTE did not show the entire funeral ceremony! When I phoned to complain, I was told that the time allocation was up! Surely, for a world event, the likes of which the human race will probably never see again, they could have extended it? When there have been golf events and the likes, they don't hesitate in cancelling other programmes! Shame on you RTE.

nacho libre

Piliger wrote: »

Yes they would. Because he never did. Your grasp of where Mandela came from and the reason why he was labelled with this commie nonsense is clearly challenged.

.

i don't think it's wise of you to question others people understanding of where Nelson came from, and what the precise views of the ANC were, when earlier in the thread you were unaware of the close relationship between him and Sinn Fein.

If you'd take off the blinkers for a second you might be able look at things objectively, doing so doesn't imply Nelson Mandela was a failure. He has his place in history no matter what, acknowledging his mistakes and those of the ANC leadership upon his release doesn't change that.

Jimoslimos

Piliger wrote: »

Because it was partially true. Thatcher did not support the Whites i order to oppose the removal of Apartheid. The cold war was a big deal. She believed the best way to end it was to engage with it and did not support sanctions. It was her opinion and it's for history to decide if it worked or not.

Rascasse wrote: »

Thatcher was possibly the most important foreigner trying to end apartheid in the 80’s. The left are generally incapable of saying anything nice about her, and certainly not about her work to free Mandela, so it’s good to see Renwick give her credit. Makes a change from the nonsense about Cameron producing “Hang Mandela” posters.

My god, the revisionism is strong here. Thatcher and right-wing Tories at the time were at the forefront in trying to maintain the status quo. Only when public and international opinion were overwhelmingly against them did they concede any ground.

Piliger

nacho libre wrote: »

i don't think it's wise of you to question others people understanding of where Nelson came from, and what the precise views of the ANC were, when earlier in the thread you were unaware of the close relationship between him and Sinn Fein.

I was fully aware of it. You on the other hand completely fail to show any ability to grasp the meaning of the connection.

If you'd take off the blinkers for a second you might be able look at things objectively, doing so doesn't imply Nelson Mandela was a failure. He has his place in history no matter what, acknowledging his mistakes and those of the ANC leadership upon his release doesn't change that.

I have no interest in the ANC and this thread is not concerned with the ANC. I know the facts about Mandela and you seem determined to be emotionally involved and twist them to suit your personal issues, whatever they may be.

Piliger

opr wrote: »

Ronnie Kasrils, former deputy minister in the Mandela administration has been banging that drum for quite a while now.

Written 6 months ago - How the ANC's Faustian pact sold out South Africa's poorest

Full article - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/24/anc-faustian-pact-mandela-fatal-error

Opr

Mandela never made any such sworn promise that he would eradicate poverty. This is just politically motivated revisionism.

Rascasse

Jimoslimos wrote: »

My god, the revisionism is strong here. Thatcher and right-wing Tories at the time were at the forefront in trying to maintain the status quo. Only when public and international opinion were overwhelmingly against them did they concede any ground.

If you read the letter, from 1985, it is clear she did not want to maintain the status quo. It really is quite a remarkable document in terms of her literally telling Botha what to do, and what could happen if it didn't. As is often the case, it took a reformer to come in to power before substantial change occurred, but don't believe all the hype about Thatcher.

Sanctions were never the way forwards for South Africa with it being largely self sufficient and resource rich. When you have a belligerent government they will always survive whatever the international community tries. We see it now with North Korea and Iran, sanctions mean little. In the case of South Africa, which part of the population do you think would suffer if the sanctions had happened and there was an economic effect?

AerynSun

Rascasse wrote: »

In the case of South Africa, which part of the population do you think would suffer if the sanctions had happened and there was an economic effect?

Economic sanctions DID happen, and that affected the lower middle class and the working class, and the underclass who never could get a paying job.

Cultural sanctions also happened, and the effect of that was that anybody who owned/watched TV got tons of Dallas and Dynasty and no Dr Who or Red Dwarf.

old hippy

Interesting article here

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-thatcher-branded-ancterrorist-while-urging-nelson-mandelas-release-8994191.html

WilyCoyote

old hippy wrote: »

Interesting article here

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/margaret-thatcher-branded-ancterrorist-while-urging-nelson-mandelas-release-8994191.html

It gives the impression that "the lady's not for turning" turned.

To be taken cum granis.

After the State funeral yesterday she would be turning in her fetid grave