Nelson Mandela has passed

HansHolzel

If anyone wants an independent view of the present South Africa, google articles by Rian Malan. You won't always agree with him but he's independent, fearless and can spot bullsh*t a mile off. Plus he did write My Traitor's Heart.

AerynSun

HansHolzel wrote: »

If anyone wants an independent view of the present South Africa, google articles by Rian Malan. You won't always agree with him but he's independent, fearless and can spot bullsh*t a mile off. Plus he did write My Traitor's Heart.

Rian writes some interesting stuff.

You could also google Steven Friedman (political scientist), Max du Preez (journalist), Zachie Achmat (activist) and Prof. Jonathan Jansen (rector of the University of the Free State) - all offering interesting insights and perspectives.

HansHolzel

Thanks for those.

Piliger

HansHolzel wrote: »

If anyone wants an independent view of the present South Africa, google articles by Rian Malan. You won't always agree with him but he's independent, fearless and can spot bullsh*t a mile off. Plus he did write My Traitor's Heart.

Malan is a hack who has a personal agenda of hate against the ANC and Mandela in particular. His 'writing's aren't worth the toilet paper they are written on.

HansHolzel

meh

Tutu wouldn't vote for the ANC at this stage ;-)

HansHolzel

Plus your near-namesake (no coincidence, I presume) seems to be disappointed that Mandela didn't do a Mugabe on it...

http://johnpilger.com/articles/mandelas-greatness-may-be-secured-but-not-his-legacy

nacho libre

I wonder did Nelson ever privately challenge Fidel on his oppression of minorities inside Cuba.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lGXli4zBMQA

HansHolzel

Castro is no angel and I wouldn't like to live there but this is where he's coming from (we can leave the comparative hooker headcount until later):

Peter Ustinov mused about a 1954 visit to Cuba in his autobiography, Dear Me.

“The city of Havana is lovely but the atmosphere at the time was disturbing. The place felt as though it was irretrievably impregnated with American influence, which is not at all the same as saying it was like the United States. Every advertisement was for an American product… I felt and said at the time that such a country could only explode in order to rediscover its identity… Revolutions have never succeeded unless the establishment does three quarters of the work. It was completing its contribution while we were in Cuba.”

Then there were the starker memories of American historian Arthur Schlesinger Jr., concerning a 1950 visit he made to the country.

“I was enchanted by Havana and appalled by the way that lovely city was being debased into a giant casino and brothel for American businessmen over for a big weekend from Miami. My fellow countrymen reeled through the streets, picking up 14-year-old Cuban girls and tossing coins to make men scramble in the gutter. One wondered how any Cuban… could regard the United States with anything but hatred.”

Seaneh

nacho libre wrote: »

I wonder did Nelson ever privately challenge Fidel on his oppression of minorities inside Cuba.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lGXli4zBMQA

I don't think you realise just how much certain African states owe their liberation from colonial and apartheid regimes partially to the support of Castro and his support.

As much as opposition parties/individuals might be repressed, minorities are not oppressed. The only minority who claim to be oppressed are the white Spaniards who lost their strangle hold on the rest of the country during the revolution and now live in Florida telling anyone who listens about the evils of communism, without a hint of irony, while ignoring to mention the fact they (white Spaniards) enacted a de facto apartheid regime in Cuba pre-revolution and kept the indigenous and African origin population in servitude to them.

bnt

Headline in Spanish newspaper La Razon:

El hombre que llevó a Sudáfrica el Mundial que conquistó España

Translation: The Man Who Brought to South Africa the World Cup That Spain Won.

Nice to see that they have their priorities in order. :cool:

Seaneh

bnt wrote: »

Headline in Spanish newspaper La Razon:

El hombre que llevó a Sudáfrica el Mundial que conquistó España

Translation: The Man Who Brought to South Africa the World Cup That Spain Won.

Nice to see that they have their priorities in order. :cool:

A right wing newspaper in a country with a fairly recent reputation for racism and inequality towards non-nationals is hardly going to hail him as the great liberator and emancipator, in fairness.

seamus

Hilarious to hear Bill O'Reilly mention that Mandela used to be a Communist like it's on a par with being a peado or something. I didn't actually believe the commie hysteria still existed in the US. I thought they'd gotten over that nonsense and grown up.

Though it was refreshing to hear another right-wing commentator make the point that Mandela supported the ZA communist party because they were the only party who advocated equals rights for all, not because of any anti-capitalist agenda.

Hande hoche!

nacho libre wrote: »

I wonder did Nelson ever privately challenge Fidel on his oppression of minorities inside Cuba.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lGXli4zBMQA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG98-FxBYgA

nacho libre

I was wrong, it seems Fidel does regret past discrimination

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/cuba/7976488/Fidel-Castro-regrets-discrimination-against-gays-in-Cuba.html

Bacchus

So, the sign language interpreter was a fake it seems. Not only was he making up gibberish gestures but they don't even know who the man is! Bet Obama's secret service are loving this

PR mess for SA. Such a pity. It was supposed to be a memorial to a great man. Instead it's all about booing Zuma, crowds being told to behave and now, a fake interpreter getting on stage with some of the worlds leaders.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/africa/man-doing-sign-language-at-mandela-memorial-was-a-fake-1.1624262

Piliger

FFS if that is all that goes wrong in this massive massive organised event - then SA will have done amazingly well. And there is no evidence that he was a security threat, only that he didn't sign in the deaf language. Big deal !!

It reminds me of the Naked Gun when Frank impersonates the opera singer

HansHolzel

Tutu's house was burgled during the service.

Nodin

HansHolzel wrote: »

Tutu's house was burgled during the service.

Scumbuckets. Thick too, as I'd imagine theres far more worth stroking in Zumas place.

opr

If Nelson Mandela really had won, he wouldn't be seen as a universal hero.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/09/if-nelson-mandela-really-had-won

Opr

AllGunsBlazing

Bacchus wrote: »

So, the sign language interpreter was a fake it seems. Not only was he making up gibberish gestures but they don't even know who the man is!

Here he is...

https://twitter.com/MemorialSigner

Fratton Fred

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It reminds me of the Naked Gun when Frank impersonates the opera singer

Reminded me of the Chelsea fan that did.Ranieries translations.

Piliger

opr wrote: »

If Nelson Mandela really had won, he wouldn't be seen as a universal hero.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/09/if-nelson-mandela-really-had-won

Opr

A BS article. He did win and he was a universal hero.

Nodin

opr wrote: »

If Nelson Mandela really had won, he wouldn't be seen as a universal hero.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/09/if-nelson-mandela-really-had-won

Opr

Contrary to what some might believe, social change is generally impossible to engineer overnight.

Piliger

Nodin wrote: »

Contrary to what some might believe, social change is generally impossible to engineer overnight.

Look how long it took Ireland to change, to develop and how long to get out from under the abuse and yoke of the catholic church.

opr

In your foaming at the mouth it seems neither of you really reflected on what the article is saying. Mandela was an inspirational figure who did a huge amount of good, but his dreams of equality and social justice cannot be seen to have been achieved in South Africa today. At the moment corruption is rife, basic service levels in many cases are worse than under apartheid, land redistribution is seen as a joke within the country. Just because there is a black elite now alongside the white one hasn't lead to a more fairer and equitable society. All Zizek is saying is that Mandela was a good start but if you want freedom and equality you need to do more.

Taken from the comments.

The ANC charter was for a socialist democracy

The people shall share in the country's wealth
The national wealth of our country, the heritage of all South Africans, shall be restored to the people;
The mineral wealth beneath the soil, the banks and the monopoly industry shall be transferred to the ownership of the people as a whole;
All other industry and trade shall be controlled to assist the well-being of the people; ...

Not much sign of any of that in today's South Africa. No one is saying that the time frame is near enough to have sorted the problems in SF but if people believe things are on the right track at the moment then they are completely uneducated on the subject.

Good question time special on BBC last night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhbu9I8fXrc

Opr

Piliger

opr wrote: »

In your foaming at the mouth it seems neither of you really reflected on what the article is saying. Mandela was an inspirational figure who did a huge amount of good, but his dreams of equality and social justice cannot be seen to have been achieved in South Africa today.

Except that is not what it said.

opr

Piliger wrote: »

Except that is not what it said.

That is exactly what the article is saying. The whole article focuses on the idea that now things have changed the important part is to make sure under the new system that the goals that the leadership had originally wanted start to be realised.

"The general rule is that when a revolt begins against an oppressive half-democratic regime, as was the case in the Middle East in 2011, it is easy to mobilise large crowds with slogans that one cannot but characterise as crowd pleasers – for democracy, against corruption, for instance. But then we gradually approach more difficult choices, when our revolt succeeds in its direct goal, we come to realise that what really bothered us (our un-freedom, humiliation, social corruption, lack of prospect of a decent life) goes on in a new guise. The ruling ideology mobilises here its entire arsenal to prevent us from reaching this radical conclusion. "

"If we want to remain faithful to Mandela's legacy, we should thus forget about celebratory crocodile tears and focus on the unfulfilled promises his leadership gave rise to."

No point in replacing one form of oppression with another. The right choices need to be made following the successful struggle which is not happening in SF.

Opr

Piliger

opr wrote: »

That is exactly what the article is saying.

Except it isn't.

This is what it says:

"We can safely surmise that, on account of his doubtless moral and political greatness, he was at the end of his life also a bitter old man, well aware how his very political triumph and his elevation into a universal hero was the mask of a bitter defeat. His universal glory is also a sign that he really didn't disturb the global order of power."

Which is totally inaccurate and a lie.

Yellow121

Piliger wrote: »

Look how long it took Ireland to change, to develop and how long to get out from under the abuse and yoke of the catholic church.

I'm sure you meant to say the British empire instead of the catholic church but you failed to realise the British are still in Ireland.