Mux 2 Launched / Saorview Rescan Required

Peter Rhea

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

. . . I think the aerial is out of alignment but a few degrees having looked at it compared to others around the area.

A 'few degrees', as in a single-figure amount, won't make any difference unless the other aerials are all off too.

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

The coverage map seems to be recommending changing the whole of tullamore to kippure from cairn hill

You could at least give Kippure a go. A group B aerial should work for mux 1: if it seems a worthwhile improvement on Cairn Hill, you can get a more suitable aerial.

channelsurfer2

Peter Rhea wrote: »

A 'few degrees', as in a single-figure amount, won't make any difference unless the other aerials are all off too.

It would make a difference when its not on the roof giving me an extra 10 feet in height compared to the gable end its on now?



You could at least give Kippure a go. A group B aerial should work for mux 1: if it seems a worthwhile improvement on Cairn Hill, you can get a more suitable aerial.

yes I will try that as well. I had intended on doing it at the weekend but heavy winds ruled it out.
(thats the health warning with DIY installations I know full well that it will never be as right as when someone who does it for a living with the proper equipment does it).

The Cush

rsmike wrote: »

I have two aerials, both newish, the larger one was originally fitted for TV3 and this points to Mullaghanish I think, the smaller points pretty much in the opposite direction towards Crosshaven.

The larger TV3/Mullaghanish (hi-gain?) aerial with masthead amp could be your problem alright, possibly overloading the receiver's tuner. The Crosshaven aerial, maybe without amp, might suffice now as all channels are available from transmitters.

Peter Rhea

STB wrote: »

A lot of the first set of mux frequency were located orginally as considered to be the most suitable by geographic location. Then people got aerial installers in who peaked the signal for that arrangement. Mux 2 is launched on the second set of most preffered frequencies.

Well, they picked the lower frequency for mux 1 in most cases, a notable exception being the 41, 44, 47 transmitters.

Putting the main PSB onto mux 2 doesn't exactly suggest that mux 1 got overly favourable treatment, though.

rsmike

The Cush wrote: »

The larger TV3/Mullaghanish (hi-gain?) aerial with masthead amp could be your problem alright, possibly overloading the receiver's tuner. The Crosshaven aerial, maybe without amp, might suffice now as all channels are available from transmitters.

I need to check but I think both may be going thru the amp.

I checked the settings for the RTE 1 HD channel on the Samsung TV and it shows the following:
Freq: 498000 KhZ
Serv ID: 0835
Mux: TSID 03ea ONID 2174
Network RTENL 2 ID 3201
Bit Error: 451
Strength: 7

RTE 2 HD is
Freq: 474000
Serv ID: 044e
TSID: 03e9 ONID 2174
Network: RTENL 1 ID 3201
Bit Error: occasionally shows 1
Strength: 9

Ronnie Raygun

STB wrote: »

A lot of the first set of mux frequency were located orginally as considered to be the most suitable by geographic location. Then people got aerial installers in who peaked the signal for that arrangement. Mux 2 is launched on the second set of most preffered frequencies. The power is turned up. Peoples aerial setups become prone to RF overload through previous use of masthead amps. On the opposite end of the scale is where people dont get the second mux at all as the strength of Mux 2 over Mux 1 is not universal.

You make it look like it's all pioneering work, like nobody in these islands has ever planned a multichannel UHF broadcast network.

Souriau

Is it possible that 2RN knew what they are doing by soft launch Mux2 and lettting viewers to sort out the aerial problems if any, and some are having poor aerial setup, before they launch the full HD by Christmas so no one would be put out around Christmas with no RTE1 and possible TG4.

channelsurfer2

seems the kippure transmitter can even give me DAB according(with appropriate radio of course) to this coverage map.

http://www.rte.ie/digitalradio/dab_coverage_dec09.pdf

Antenna

rsmike wrote: »

I need to check but I think both may be going thru the amp.

I checked the settings for the RTE 1 HD channel on the Samsung TV and it shows the following:
Freq: 498000 KhZ
Serv ID: 0835
Mux: TSID 03ea ONID 2174
Network RTENL 2 ID 3201
Bit Error: 451
Strength: 7

RTE 2 HD is
Freq: 474000
Serv ID: 044e
TSID: 03e9 ONID 2174
Network: RTENL 1 ID 3201
Bit Error: occasionally shows 1
Strength: 9

Maybe your TV is not selecting the stronger of two transmitters available?

Delete RTE1/MUX2 channels and then try do a manual scan (not a full scan) on UHF Ch56 ( 754 MHz or 754000 kHz) only - which is Crosshaven MUX2 instead of Mullaghanish (Ch 24 / 498MHz)

rsmike

Antenna wrote: »

Maybe your TV is not selecting the stronger of two transmitters available?

Delete RTE1/MUX2 channels and then try do a manual scan (not a full scan) on UHF Ch56 ( 754 MHz or 754000 kHz) only - which is Crosshaven MUX2 instead of Mullaghanish (Ch 24 / 498MHz)

OK, ta, I will try that later.

John marshall

I live in athlone still have no RT1 ,i have been re seting the tv all week ,i have 8 chanels that are good ,but shood have 9 can you help

dowtchaboy

rsmike wrote: »

Thanks for reply, I will have to check the Mux settings ( not at home at the moment)

I have two aerials, both newish, the larger one was originally fitted for TV3 and this points to Mullaghanish I think, the smaller points pretty much in the opposite direction towards Crosshaven.

The coverage map recommends Crosshaven.

The reason your TV3 antenna points to Mulla is that TV3 was never installed in Crosshaven (or any of the smaller transmitters). Now that we have TV3 in Crosshaven....I wish we hadn't.....

The Crosshaven frequencies are 674000, and 754000 for Mux 2: RTE1HD, RTE1+1, and RTE Jr. Strong signal (but then I'm looking up at the transmitter 2 km away)

steveon

John marshall wrote: »

I live in athlone still have no RT1 ,i have been re seting the tv all week ,i have 8 chanels that are good ,but shood have 9 can you help

There are only 8 channels.... if your rte1 doesnt display retune required on the banner your fine, some tv's will not show the old channels as they are none broadcasting a name..what type of tv or box are you using?

The Cush

rsmike wrote: »

I need to check but I think both may be going thru the amp.

I checked the settings for the RTE 1 HD channel on the Samsung TV and it shows the following:
Freq: 498000 KhZ
Serv ID: 0835
Mux: TSID 03ea ONID 2174
Network RTENL 2 ID 3201
Bit Error: 451
Strength: 7

RTE 2 HD is
Freq: 474000
Serv ID: 044e
TSID: 03e9 ONID 2174
Network: RTENL 1 ID 3201
Bit Error: occasionally shows 1
Strength: 9

Another option to test out in addition to Antenna's suggestion of a manual scan of UHF Ch 56
- Do a full rescan but before you start the scan pull the aerial plug from the TV, once the scan passes the lower Mullaghanish frequencies (474 MHz) reinsert the aerial plug, the scan should then only find the Crosshaven frequencies

whitebriar

Rte1 9 news looks to me almost like it's a Skype feed...1080 but the feed to it is poor.
What a waste.

rsmike

The Cush wrote: »

Another option to test out in addition to Antenna's suggestion of a manual scan of UHF Ch 56
- Do a full rescan but before you start the scan pull the aerial plug from the TV, once the scan passes the lower Mullaghanish frequencies (474 MHz) reinsert the aerial plug, the scan should then only find the Crosshaven frequencies

OK, thanks for all the advice, but, :-[ It turns out my aerial connection into the TV was dodgy, apparently it was surviving all along with a very weak signal on all of the channels and the change tipped RTE 1 just below the acceptable level causing the break up.

When I replaced the aerial cable, the signal strengths shot up from about 9 to 95, RTE1 was at about 7 prior to sorting the cable.

It turns out I can use either Mullaghanish or Crosshaven with my two aerials, It seems to default to Mullaghanish because as you pointed out these are scanned first. I did try the manual scan to confirm Crosshaven would work either

A lesson in how tolerant digital receivers are, RTE2 HD was absolutely perfect with a signal strength of just 9!

TAFKAlawhec

The Cush wrote: »

It's possible but another retune would be required. At least most Mux2 reception problems should be sorted by then.

Not necessarily - once RTÉ One (SD), RTÉ Jr and RTÉ One +1 are removed from Mux 1 this should give approx 4.2Mbps data free to be used which, based on RTÉ Two HD having an average bit rate of 6MBps for vision, could be given for TG4 or TV3 on their current SD streams to upgrade to HD without having to change multiplex. My experience from 2010 when RTÉ Two went from SD to HD was that this happened automatically with receivers capable of showing the HD picture automatically adjusting without having to rescan for channels. In theory, the same could be done for TG4, which could upgrade its video stream from SD to HD and no action would be required for the viewer (at at least most viewers).

So then by that point you could have HD streams on Mux 1 for RTÉ Two and TG4, and on Mux 2 RTÉ One. If and when TV3 decide it's time to upgrade to HD on Saorview, it'll likely need a retune then as a fourth HD channel would in terms of capacity have to go on to Mux 2.

The Cush

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

In theory, the same could be done for TG4, which could upgrade its video stream from SD to HD and no action would be required for the viewer (at at least most viewers).

You're correct, if they change TG4 on Mux1 from SD to HD there will be no requirement to retune. Maybe this is the reason why Tg4 HD didn't start test transmissions on Mux2.

My thinking was, following Souriau's post about one of the test channels carrying TG4 subtitles that it would be launched on Mux2 and the LCN's would be swapped over like RTÉ 1 etc.

TAFKAlawhec

STB wrote: »

A lot of the first set of mux frequency were located orginally as considered to be the most suitable by geographic location. Then people got aerial installers in who peaked the signal for that arrangement. Mux 2 is launched on the second set of most preffered frequencies. The power is turned up. Peoples aerial setups become prone to RF overload through previous use of masthead amps. On the opposite end of the scale is where people dont get the second mux at all as the strength of Mux 2 over Mux 1 is not universal.

This has already been explained by myself and others. Unless you are in a strong signal area with an outdoor aerial installed whereby the receiver signal strength/quality bars are at 100%, some small variations are to be expected between broadcasts on two different frequencies even if they are reasonably close together. Most people with a properly installed aerial set up should not notice this, especially if the Saorview installation was set up correctly by an installer by ensuring that the received Saorview multiplex 1 was at least 6db over the receiver threshold to allow for propagation changes & reductions of power at transmitter sites for work to be carried out. All of the new multiplex 2 frequencies (except for Crosshaven) now being broadcast are within the same traditional aerial group as Multiplex 1 so significant differences in frequency reception shouldn't be big.

Also worth remembering that unless you use something like a log-periodic, the gain of the receiving aerial will be different on two or more separate frequencies, especially for Yagis. Take for example Mullaghanish where Mux 1 is broadcast on E21 and Mux 2 on E24. Pretty much all Group A aerials will perform a little better on E24 compared to E21 in terms of gain and directivity.

As an additional bit of info, in the UK the BBCA multiplex has the highest population coverage of any multiplex in that country. However the effective coverage differences between that and the D3&4 and BBCB multiplexes, with both of them broadcasting at the same power from the same TX aerials as BBCA, is tiny. We're talking a small fraction of a percent here as to render it insignificant. There is no reason as to why this should be any different for the two multiplex Saorview network.

STB wrote: »

Throw into the mix the confusion of having left the RTE1 SD and +1 on Mux 1 and people have 2 sets of channels, one of which will disappear in a week and we have a revolving door scenario. There are people who dont think they have a problem right now as they are still watching the SD RTE.

Earlier this year in the UK Film 4 moved from an Arqiva multiplex to D3&4, and during the moving period of a few weeks a caption on the Film 4 broadcast on the Arqiva multiplex advised people to retune to continue watching the channel (Film 4 on Arqiva shortly after became Film 4 +1). This, and the current RTÉ One brief simulcast, is arguably less disruptive than suddenly switching from one multiplex to another leaving either just an MHEG caption behind advising to retune, or indeed nothing at all!

STB wrote: »

There are also a of genuine numbers of people who dont understand how to retune a digital box.

Would there be a lot more in the Republic of Ireland who wouldn't know how to do this compared to many other countries? With DTT it's arguably easier than it was with many analogue TV sets, as they all offer automatic tuning which will store channels to pre defined channel numbers thanks to LCNs. Many will also search for channel updates whilst in standby. In the UK retuning is a semi-regular occurrence, especially if you don't set your receiver to automatically scan for channels and new services in standby (this has a side-effect in picking up distant transmissions under good tropospheric conditions, so wherever to have it active is down to each individual case). There's been quite a bit of multiplex hopping over the years in the UK, e.g. UKTV History/Yesterday from Mux C to Mux D, Challenge from Mux A to Mux C, ITV3 and ITV4 from Mux 2 to Mux A, Channel 5 from Mux A to Mux 2 etc. Where most people in the UK coped OK, the few that had problems had a helpline to contact Digitial UK about any problems.

TAFKAlawhec

The Cush wrote: »

You're correct, if they change TG4 on Mux1 from SD to HD there will be no requirement to retune. Maybe this is the reason why Tg4 HD didn't start test transmissions on Mux2.

My thinking was, following Souriau's post about one of the test channels carrying TG4 subtitles that it would be launched on Mux2 and the LCN's would be swapped over like RTÉ 1 etc.

If TG4 HD does eventually end up on Mux 2, it seems silly not to have made a similar move at the same time as what is now happening, less hassle for everyone involved. Maybe TG4 balked a little bit at the price of capacity for the bitrate required for HD on the Saorview network and have decided to hold out for a while first.

The only thing I can really fault 2RN over this is that the current RTÉ One SD, RTÉ One +1 and RTÉ Jr streams on Mux 1 should have either had their LCN numbers removed all together, or been assigned deliberately high numbers e.g. 7xx rather than the ones they currently have. The latter probably preferable, as my experience suggests that Saorview receivers would simply put the three streams numbered after the rest of the main channels, whereas giving them out-of-range LCN numbers would communicate to viewers that these channels are not part of the regular line up or on death row. On Freeview in the UK, streams which don't have an LCN attached to it will appear in the 8xx range as per D-Book spec.

If this thread is anything to go by, then God help us if a third Saorview multiplex is ever launched!

The Cush

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

If TG4 HD does eventually end up on Mux 2, it seems silly not to have made a similar move at the same time as what is now happening, less hassle for everyone involved. Maybe TG4 balked a little bit at the price of capacity for the bitrate required for HD on the Saorview network and have decided to hold out for a while first.

Most likely waiting for the Mux1 capacity to become available as you say, something TG4 related must be happening if they're testing TG4 subtitles on a Mux2 HD stream.

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

The only thing I can really fault 2RN over this is that the current RTÉ One SD, RTÉ One +1 and RTÉ Jr streams on Mux 1 should have either had their LCN numbers removed all together, or been assigned deliberately high numbers e.g. 7xx rather than the ones they currently have. The latter probably preferable, as my experience suggests that Saorview receivers would simply put the three streams numbered after the rest of the main channels,

I'd disagree with you there, their present LCNs puts them within easy reach of those with problem Mux2 reception for a few weeks and gives them time to get it sorted, no point annoying viewers with problem reception further or trying to communicate that they will have to type in 700 on their r/c to get RTÉ1. Saorview's phonelines are busy enough I believe.

I'm not sure how a Saorview receiver with Ireland as the country/region would handle channels on the same Mux without an LCN, maybe ignore them altogether, even the SSU channels have LCNs 249/250 or would it place them after the radio LCNs, 221 upward? The present LCNs places them directly after the main TV channels now 8->11->17->18.

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

If this thread is anything to go by, then God help us if a third Saorview multiplex is ever launched!

Might be less problems, the Mux 1 and 2 reception problems should be sorted by then, maybe?

kooga

on a positive note did a retune for my parents in north cork on monday, small normende saorview tv in the kitchen, did a rescan no problems,getting reception from mux 1 and 2 on Mullaghanish.

while up home got a call from my brother, looking to retune is alma combo box (using it as a multiroom), again no probs with the retune, reception perfect. Both households using outdoor aerials in the attic.

Btr

steveon wrote: »

RTE1 has moved frequency...where you based?? have you check up around no11?

I had same issue , it is now 11 . On walker you can change order of channels so make it one instead

Elmo

According to Saorview's twitter feed RTÉ ONE HD launches this year.

@SAORVIEW: @fixtronix David the re-scan is to prepare for @RTE One in HD which will launch later this year@saorview

dublinman1990

I notice the Saorview website is mentioning this morning that owners of unapproved equipment may find difficulties for rescanning their receivers because of the latest changes to Saorview.

http://www.saorview.ie/news/unapproved-equipment-and-the-saorview-re-scan/

http://www.saorview.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Re-scan-guide-UNAPPROVED-EQUIPMENT.pdf

I also found a message that I read last night on channels 11, 17 & 18 on the Triax TSC 114 (which should be read on ALL Saorview equipment btw) that if Saorview viewers rescanned & found RTE1 on channel number 1; well than no further action is required. Although; I still get a conflicting message that when I watch a Saorview channel on my Triax box. It will still say ''Services not available anymore, being removed from the channel list'' when the re-scan is done already.

Should I ignore the message altogether or do I need to do another rescan from Three Rock?

Thanks.

Peter Rhea

'11' isn't the frequency, it's just the number assigned in the channel list/programme guide.

The un-named version of RTE1 that appears at no. 11 in your EPG will disappear in a couple of weeks: renumbering won't help here. To continue viewing RTE1, RTE1 +1 & RTE jr., you need to retune & find the 2nd multiplex of services. RTE1 will then reappear as a named service with programme info. at no. 1 in the EPG.

Souriau

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I also found a message that I read last night on channels 11, 17 & 18 on the Triax TSC 114 (which should be read on ALL Saorview equipment btw) that if Saorview viewers rescanned & found RTE1 on channel number 1; well than no further action is required. Although; I still get a conflicting message that when I watch a Saorview channel on my Triax box. It will still say ''Services not available anymore, being removed from the channel list'' when the re-scan is done already.

Should I ignore the message altogether or do I need to do another rescan from Three Rock?

Thanks.

No, you don't need to do another scan if you get RTE1 HD on channel 1, RTEjr on 7 and RTE1+1 on 8, then just delete the old RTE1 on 11, RTEjr on 17 and RTE1+1 on 18.

Peter Rhea

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I still get a conflicting message that when I watch a Saorview channel on my Triax box. It will still say ''Services not available anymore, being removed from the channel list'' when the re-scan is done already.

Is this 'conflicting message' appearing on all Saorview channels or, only on those that actually will be removed shortly?

dublinman1990

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Is this 'conflicting message' appearing on all Saorview channels or, only on those that actually will be removed shortly?

I have seen the message regularly while watching either one of the first three channels namely RTE1 HD, RTE2 HD & TV3. Although; it is hard to say from my experience that it could appear on all of the channels from Saorview.

The notice comes up on my Triax box every few minutes & it is extremely annoying. Even if I didn't re-scan them at all; the same channels would still be there every day with the same notice cropping up on my screen.

I'd say it's definitely an issue exclusively for that particular Triax model.

Rick_

If they were able to bump up TG 4's bit rate so it can go HD and won't require a retune, why not move TG 4 to MUX 2 then and either have it in HD at the same time as RTÉ ONE or just have it already on MUX 2 so another retune is required when it is ready to go (if it is even moving there at all). Does make you wonder though why they are testing TG 4's subtitles on MUX 2.