Saorview Connect

Johnboy1951

Tony wrote: »

I've expressed my opinion to Saorview that I think not having a 7 day EPG is a negative but apparently Freesat will not allow it . Perhaps if it was made part of the tender spec it might have clarified Freesats stance and they may not have become involved at all . I think everything comes back to the fact that we are a small market and given that we watch TV from another country without paying for it does not lend itself to having a strong negotiating starting point..

That implies to me that the error was in getting involved with Freesat in the first place!

STB.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That implies to me that the error was in getting involved with Freesat in the first place!

Big time, it also smacks of deliberate tendering for control.

Are Methapor and Freesat indistinguishable ?

Capt'n Midnight

STB. wrote: »

The data is broadcast in the open with a compression algorithm that is already known.

Historically there's the McGill case and EU database laws allowing copying of list of facts but not the layout.

However, all moot if Freesat start encrypting the data.

On the point about the expectations of technophobes, Saorview really need to get with the reality of the pressures of the various competing platforms. Thats why they should really only be looking at a box that supports H265/4k and is pluggable with stuff like Netflix as options which does not cost the earth as the cost effective chips are already out there in good stock. There is nothing Holy grail about it, its very do-able and would be a big seller as a all in one product. There is nothing integrated about freesat TV's in the Irish market. Its function jumping and not suitable as a plug and play option due to Country settings required for DVB-T not being separable for DVB-S2.

Nope.

KISS. Keep it simple for the first one. Most of the fancy stuff can be added on later in software but only after the system is stable.




4K is over kill for now. Saorview isn't using T2 for legacy reasons with the first batch of receivers. TV3, 3e, TG4, UTV are still in SD. I'd also be wary of choosing hardware with licensing costs on the basis it might be useful later on. Sky boxes and saorview and TV's all have CI slots so decoding hardware can be added later.

Software add ons sound good but, they have to be continuously patched, are only useful if you have internets and most people with the internets already have devices or smart TV's , security concerns could your affect your brand. And all moot on the initial release as they can be pushed out later over the air, as indeed Netflix and on demand features were in the UK.

For future proofing just pick a stable chipset with spare processing power extra memory and ram. Stuff like CI slot , CEC , and a universal infra red remote are all no-brainers too. I'd add in legacy RF output, what % of Irish homes have a TV in the bedroom using analog from UPC or SKY ? ( This perhaps is the only possible justification of an RF type remote over infra red, and even then the path back over the co-ax is a better option in most cases ) Allowing the box to stream might be an option too, but that could be done in software later, but may not appeal to luddites.

Johnboy1951

I don't see the point of producing a low spec STB and adding functions later with updates.

Why not produce a fully functioning STB in the first place, with a menu that allows for the various functions to be enabled or disabled as the user requires?

If done right it would beat out all competition in the market ... and possibly even get sales outside our borders, just as Freesat STBs are common in this jurisdiction.

7 Day EPG for all channels; integrated, Sat & Saorview, channel listing editable by the user are all easily achieved.

A premium STB could also be sold (maybe a later release) with dual DVB-T and dual DVB-S tuners, incorporating a 1TB HDD, for those who want recording etc.

Of equal importance IMO would be the ability to have devices on the LAN access the tuners, for viewing and setting recordings, with all recordings available for playback on those devices.

All of this is easily achieved.

Of course there needs to be the will to do it, and that seems to be lacking sadly.

EDIT:
They could have done a deal with the likes of Openelec and produced a great STB along those lines without much trouble.

Capt'n Midnight

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That implies to me that the error was in getting involved with Freesat in the first place!

No, the error is using the word "Freesat", unless of course they are actually providing Freesat.
Setting the wrong expectation is the worst thing you can do, and if it doesn't include Freesat EPG then they should have killed that rumour on Day 1.

Mrs Doyle: Are you looking forward to your lunch tomorrow, Father?
Ted: Hmmm? I suppose so.
Mrs Doyle: You do like pheasant, don't you Father?
Ted: Pheasant? I love pheasant.
Mrs Doyle: Well there's a little clue. The thing you'll be eating likes
pheasant as well.

One box with one easy to use remote and one EPG is all most people want. Even if people stay with SKY and UPC there is still a huge market for second TV boxes for bedrooms, kitchen, granny flat.


http://www.tivusat.tv/pages/prodotti/bollini-tivusat/bollino-tivuon.aspx
Google translate Tivù is the Italian DTT/Sat and they are rolling out a Freetime TV system (note Tivusat needs a Free to View card to get HD or most of the commercial channels )

tivùon! It is the new label that can be found along with the label DGTVi Gold (or, in the case of satellite receiver, the dot Gold tivùsat ). A decoder or TV equipped with tivùon! It ensures secure content use and interactive services - on demand movies or content also broadcast on television in the days before - such as the new service on demand videos and movies, Infinity.

In detail, the label tivùon! It allows:
- Access to premium content, free or paid depending on the service offered by different publishers, adequately protected by a digital security system (called DRM)
- Guarantee to block violent or pornographic content (that are not compatible with the technology tivùon! For our company choices)
- Ensures the quality of the content (for example, in High Definition)

Finally it will be possible the display of content on demand also in case of internet connections (ADSL) not super fast, thanks to a called Adaptive Streaming component that allows the loading and the video display also in case of bandwidth up to 2-3 Mbit / s.
tivùon! It is found only on HD decoder and the latest televisions, to keep abreast of the times and enjoy a greater quality and safety.

If they were to go down the option of a UK TV subscription than it would have to be for a nominal amount as the failed attempts at DTT have shown the market won't allow it. The TivuSat card/CI costs €99 (FTV card because overspill encrypted) and TBH I can't see a sub covering that sort of hardware cost without offering extra content over and above what's already FTA and then you'd have to pay for the content and it spirals up. OnDigital and TopUpTV also showed that's not a runner.

Capt'n Midnight

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I don't see the point of producing a low spec STB and adding functions later with updates.

I should have said that differently
In reality they'll be modifying an already existing design which will have many of those features built in.

The trick is getting something stable to market with the basics. Extra wish list bells and whistles can be done later.

If done right it would beat out all competition in the market ... and possibly even get sales outside our borders, just as Freesat STBs are common in this jurisdiction.

Most of the chipsets allow input and decoding of various DVB streams, just need to add the appropriate tuners. It's already been done loads of times. But apart from one old UK box, it hasn't been done with the proprietary Freesat EPG. (except as a linux add on by enthusiasts )

Tony

Yes I agree and it will have these features.

dubrov wrote: »

Even without a 7 day epg, if the new product could handle automatic channel tuning and ordering (including uk channels) , it would still be a step forward

Tony

No problem . I asked the freesat rep directly about the EPG and he said that freesat won't allow it , I don't think the use of the name was intended either way.

STB. wrote: »

Tony, it probably my fault that I wasn't clear.

Freesat will not allow the Freesat name be used outside the UK, and thats understandable.

mackersdublin

Tony wrote: »

Yes I agree and it will have these features.

Series Link for both Saorview and UK channels?

galtee boy

mackersdublin wrote: »

Series Link for both Saorview and UK channels?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but how can it have series link for the UK channels, if it doesn't have a 7 day EPG for the UK channels ?

galtee boy

Tony wrote: »

I respectfully disagree, I think many will see this as a a big improvement on current combo boxes.

Tony, obviously we unfortunately know the combo box won't have UK 7 Day EPG, but do you know if we will be at least able to combine Saorview and UK channels on the one EPG, albeit with just now and next on the UK channels ?

Harry Palmr

galtee boy wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but how can it have series link for the UK channels, if it doesn't have a 7 day EPG for the UK channels ?

It can't as the software wouldn't be able to see ahead.

Tony

No , I made no mention of this

" Originally Posted by dubrov View Post
Even without a 7 day epg, if the new product could handle automatic channel tuning and ordering (including uk channels) , it would still be a step forward"

mackersdublin wrote: »

Series Link for both Saorview and UK channels?

Tony

Yes it will be one combined channel list to my knowledge

galtee boy wrote: »

Tony, obviously we unfortunately know the combo box won't have UK 7 Day EPG, but do you know if we will be at least able to combine Saorview and UK channels on the one EPG, albeit with just now and next on the UK channels ?

Harry Palmr

Someone should write up the definitive history of digital era FTA tv in Ireland. It'll be a catalogue of missteps and missed opportunities

Sam Russell

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Someone should write up the definitive history of digital era FTA tv in Ireland. It'll be a catalogue of missteps and missed opportunities

... and disappointments.

Johnboy1951

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I should have said that differently
In reality they'll be modifying an already existing design which will have many of those features built in.

The trick is getting something stable to market with the basics. Extra wish list bells and whistles can be done later.


Most of the chipsets allow input and decoding of various DVB streams, just need to add the appropriate tuners. It's already been done loads of times. But apart from one old UK box, it hasn't been done with the proprietary Freesat EPG. (except as a linux add on by enthusiasts )

But there should be no need for the Freesat EPG layout, thus avoiding all the proprietary hassle.
The EPG data itself is not proprietary to Freesat as you know.

Tying up with Freesat for any part of the device seems to be the root of the problem.

channelsurfer2

so basically it will just have an internet element for the rte player(if it even has that) and a rewind function.
Meanwhile as others have said the edision and other boxes have had this for 2 to 3 years with a full 7day epg(with some knowledge needed of coolepg etc). It looks like freesat really screwed them over when the won the tender.

Capt'n Midnight

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

But there should be no need for the Freesat EPG layout, thus avoiding all the proprietary hassle.
The EPG data itself is not proprietary to Freesat as you know..

I suppose if push came to shove on the copyright issue you could get someone in on jobbridge to type in the listings as they appear in the RTE Guide and push the EPG out over Saorview.

Johnboy1951

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I suppose if push came to shove on the copyright issue you could get someone in on jobbridge to type in the listings as they appear in the RTE Guide and push the EPG out over Saorview.

I think there might be an easier way

STB.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Historically there's the McGill case and EU database laws allowing copying of list of facts but not the layout.

However, all moot if Freesat start encrypting the data.

The layout is already been sold, by Methaphor, the Freetime developers.

Freesat wont be encrypting the data as their software doesnt and couldn't decrypt anything anyway. You'd have to replace all the existing freesat products sold.

The compressed EIT data on the narrow band TP on 28E presented for Freesat enabled products is in the form of Huffman tables. These were initially decompressed by the Myth TV community, before they made their way to linux boxes.

Like I said, the data is broadcast in the open.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Nope.

KISS. Keep it simple for the first one. Most of the fancy stuff can be added on later in software but only after the system is stable.

4K is over kill for now. Saorview isn't using T2 for legacy reasons with the first batch of receivers. TV3, 3e, TG4, UTV are still in SD. I'd also be wary of choosing hardware with licensing costs on the basis it might be useful later on. Sky boxes and saorview and TV's all have CI slots so decoding hardware can be added later.

Software add ons sound good but, they have to be continuously patched, are only useful if you have internets and most people with the internets already have devices or smart TV's , security concerns could your affect your brand. And all moot on the initial release as they can be pushed out later over the air, as indeed Netflix and on demand features were in the UK.

For future proofing just pick a stable chipset with spare processing power extra memory and ram. Stuff like CI slot , CEC , and a universal infra red remote are all no-brainers too. I'd add in legacy RF output, what % of Irish homes have a TV in the bedroom using analog from UPC or SKY ? ( This perhaps is the only possible justification of an RF type remote over infra red, and even then the path back over the co-ax is a better option in most cases ) Allowing the box to stream might be an option too, but that could be done in software later, but may not appeal to luddites.

Nope ?

Keeping it simple can be done without investing in more chipsets that have limitations down the road. Freesat and some of their manufacturers that received certification themselves have learned this the hard way, having to give away free hardware due to the limitations of their product.

The ARM/Broadcom chipsets that support 4k are already in wide circulation. The latest linux boxes are proof of this. They are not all high end.

When I mentioned 4k capability, it wasn't about the ability to receive future 4k dvb broadcasts (god forbid! if it happens anywhere it'll be on sat) . Having the right chip as part of the hardware spec would also allow for the use of H265 and/or 4k Netflix streams and or attached media devices. The H265/HEVC codec also allows for higher data compression without perceived quality loss for normal streams. Anyone who has watched a 200meg TV series off a USB will tell you as much. That's why it'll be probably end up the streaming codec of choice for them all. Picking the wrong hardware chip, wouldn't allow this.

The reason that the DVB EIT grab hasnt been hardcoded into UK products is because there is already an adequate amount of Freesat licensed products. I presume you are talking about the Passion box that came out years ago. Yes it would have required a firmware/ota update in order to update the hardcoded links for the box to keep populating this data, especially if Freesat moves the EPG TP as happened last year when it moved off the wider beam. Any Irish box would have the same requirements, if grabbing this data.

Additional must have hardware is a adequate RAM/ROM and a decent CPU. As can be seen by current combos on the market be it open linux OS or proprietary software, the norm is 750MHZ +.

The licensing costs that you perceive out there are a normal part of any box spec. The likes of HEVC only becomes licensable after a 100,000 unit run, and is 20c per unit after that. Netflix cant wait for you to take their plugin.

DVB-T2 over DVB-T is a non argument. Space isn't an issue, content is.

Its CI+. not CI, by the way and I cant follow the relevance either way.

Anyhow, anything I did mention are basic to any 2015/6 set top box. They should be on from the start. They are widely implemented in many hybrid boxes already.

I wouldn't be so sure of OTA firmware updates pushing out future features. It really hasn't been utilised to any extent so far in Ireland. Persisting with one OEM is the biggest issue and has resulted in limitations to date, imo.

icdg

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I suppose if push came to shove on the copyright issue you could get someone in on jobbridge to type in the listings as they appear in the RTE Guide and push the EPG out over Saorview.

Even that would be breaking copyright, as the listings themselves are the subject of copyright. Up until 1991, you couldn't publish a listings magazine that covered RTE, BBC, and ITV, as they wouldn't give each other or anyone else permission to publish each other's listings. There's an interesting thread in Broadcasting History about it.

Harry Palmr

Ah sure change the programme descriptions and misspell a few titles....;)

STB.

icdg wrote: »

Even that would be breaking copyright, as the listings themselves are copyrighted.

TBH, I dont follow why Saorview would even dream of providing such a "service" for other broadcasters.

The EIT/data tables are already broadcast free to air, just like the stations themselves.

Anyhow, the FTA community are doomed if the plans are as laid out in the last few pages of this thread are true. Pay per view owners will just laugh.

Joo0

Saorview can't seem to get anything right. Computer grads in college would be able to create a better box! This new box sounds like it will be an expensive white elephant

former total

Joo0 wrote: »

Saorview can't seem to get anything right. Computer grads in college would be able to create a better box! This new box sounds like it will be an expensive white elephant

No one has any idea what the box will look like or how much it will cost. It is all speculation.

Capt'n Midnight

STB. wrote: »

TBH, I dont follow why Saorview would even dream of providing such a "service" for other broadcasters.

Don't SKY already get more subs and advertising revenue in the Irish market than RTE ?

From a marketing point of view every viewer they can get onto Saorview means more advertising revenue. If a program is on both I'd usually watch it on Freesat because it's more button presses to switch from Freesat to Saorview and series link works.

Essentially I'm using Saorview as a top-up-tv rather than the other way around and that's not what the marketing people in RTE or TV3 or UTV Ireland or TG4 want to hear. Though of course only RTE is in HD also also has a lot to do with it.

Another conflict of interest is that UTV Ireland marketing probably wouldn't like UTV HD being available on the same EPG.

Sam Russell

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Another conflict of interest is that UTV Ireland marketing probably wouldn't like UTV HD being available on the same EPG.

They could always put Utv Ireland HD on the EPG, couldn't they? After that is in their gift.

The Cush

https://twitter.com/SAORVIEW/status/717612415756673024

The Cush

Saorview Connect gets a mention in a recent article on innovation sharing

http://www.v-net.tv/comcast%E2%80%99s-syndication-of-x1-platform-is-another-sign-of-innovation-sharing

"More signs are emerging of how the technology needed to build next-generation TV platforms is being ‘shared’ among operators. RTÉ in Ireland is developing a new hybrid broadcast broadband platform (combining linear TV with broadband-delivered on-demand) for the Saorview DTT service, with the new Saorview Connect offer scheduled to launch later this year. Freesat in the UK, which has its own HBB service called Freetime, has licensed its connected guide (commercialized and marketed under the name Metaphor) to RTÉ and will integrate the platform, set-top box application and mobile applications with the Soarview linear service as part of a fully managed service".