Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

hardybuck

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

have'nt noticed ,just thought that they played with very accomplished hurlers who when there not cleaning up at the back they are supporting midfield plus their own full back line ,,either way they won an all Ireland last year with a sweeper at the second attempt ,and very lucky to get a second chance,chances are they wont be as sucessful in this years championship,also since all Ireland's began in 1887 how many have been won with a sweeper

Well with all due respect the game has changed a bit since 1887. The days of lads lining up in the traditional format is on it's way out. You can't drive the ball up the field without looking up any more.

Clare dropped Conor Ryan back to centre back last year, and Pa Donnellan played as sweeper. This worked really in the quarter final wins against Galway and Limerick. They decided to drop it for the first All Ireland final and nearly lost the game. They decided to revert back to the sweeper system for the final and won.

So they were lucky to get a replay without playing that system and won the title with it.

Personally I think they've every chance at being as successful in 2014.

hardybuck

Lads I reiterate:

In March 2012 Waterford had played 5 games, 2 home and 3 away. They finished with two wins, three losses and a negative scoring difference.

In March 2013 Waterford had played 5 games in the league, 3 at home and two away. They finished with 2 wins, 1 draw and a negative scoring difference.

In March 2014 Waterford had played 5 games, 2 at home and 3 away. They finished with 2 wins, three losses and a negative scoring difference.

People are seemingly desperate to open this Ryan v McGrath debate again, but their records are very similar at this point.

hurler on de ditch

hardybuck wrote: »

Well with all due respect the game has changed a bit since 1887. The days of lads lining up in the traditional format is on it's way out. You can't drive the ball up the field without looking up any more.

Clare dropped Conor Ryan back to centre back last year, and Pa Donnellan played as sweeper. This worked really in the quarter final wins against Galway and Limerick. They decided to drop it for the first All Ireland final and nearly lost the game. They decided to revert back to the sweeper system for the final and won.

So they were lucky to get a replay without playing that system and won the title with it.

Personally I think they've every chance at being as successful in 2014.

agreed game has moved on ,as for driving the ball up the field it worked for KK/Cork they play a very direct game ,they trust in the players to win their personal battles ,they dont play any extra men at the back,quick ball to quality forwards ,the system might work for Clare for a year or two ,but im not convinced ,,

Deise Doodler

cleaboy boy wrote: »

Team for Sunday

SOK
T De Burca
Shane Fives
Noel Connors
Shane O'Sullivan
Brick
Philip Mahony
Steven Molumphy
Kevin Moran
Jamie Barron
Pauric Mahony
Austin Gleeson
Ray Barry
Seamus Pender
Brian O'Sullivan

How is Brian O Sullivan still getting a start? I know he has scored a couple of points per match but he is almost incapable of winning his own ball and the scores he dose get are usually when he is gifted the ball in acres of space, glad to see Austin on the half forward line ( if that is where he will play) but not sure if he should be starting games at all yet, think the mid field is a potentially stronger for the changes but would have to agree with a lot of posts here regarding P. Prendergast game time surely he deserves a shot ahead of O Sullivan in the half Back position,

Hard to see what logical criteria management are using in team selection

Deise Doodler

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

agreed game has moved on ,as for driving the ball up the field it worked for KK/Cork they play a very direct game ,they trust in the players to win their personal battles ,they dont play any extra men at the back,quick ball to quality forwards ,the system might work for Clare for a year or two ,but im not convinced ,,

Not sure the game has got any better of faster though, quick low (at least low enough that its not coming down out of the clouds ) ball it to a forward line/space where the forwards are already moving would go along way in helping our forward line get those extra few required yards on their markers, we don't have the paciest forwards so let the ball and a bit of old fashioned anticipation do the work

seananigans

you all see this in the email ?


Our mailing address is:
Waterford Hurlers
Waterford, Ireland
Waterford, Waterford
Ireland



no messing about there

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

Lads I reiterate:

In March 2012 Waterford had played 5 games, 2 home and 3 away. They finished with two wins, three losses and a negative scoring difference.

In March 2013 Waterford had played 5 games in the league, 3 at home and two away. They finished with 2 wins, 1 draw and a negative scoring difference.

In March 2014 Waterford had played 5 games, 2 at home and 3 away. They finished with 2 wins, three losses and a negative scoring difference.

People are seemingly desperate to open this Ryan v McGrath debate again, but their records are very similar at this point.

Your pretty intent on engaging in it though all the same.

tomwaterford

hardybuck wrote: »

Lads I reiterate:

In March 2012 Waterford had played 5 games, 2 home and 3 away. They finished with two wins, three losses and a negative scoring difference.

In March 2013 Waterford had played 5 games in the league, 3 at home and two away. They finished with 2 wins, 1 draw and a negative scoring difference.

In March 2014 Waterford had played 5 games, 2 at home and 3 away. They finished with 2 wins, three losses and a negative scoring difference.

People are seemingly desperate to open this Ryan v McGrath debate again, but their records are very similar at this point.

take along at those league results
in 2014 Waterford lost by average of 13 points (tipp result skews this)
in 2013 they lost by average of 4 points

fairly similar losses there alright:rolleyes::rolleyes:

take the two most critized results this year: clare and Kilkenny

2013: clare lose by 1 point to Waterford in ennis
2014: clare beat Waterford by 13 in ennis

2013: Kilkenny beat Waterford by 5 points
2014: Kilkenny beat Waterford by 20 points

very similar records alright....ryan is not coming back....but would the results suggest team is going backwards???

Tramore84

seananigans wrote: »

you all see this in the email ?


Our mailing address is:
Waterford Hurlers
Waterford, Ireland
Waterford, Waterford
Ireland



no messing about there

So good they named it thrice.

Cake Man

seananigans wrote: »

you all see this in the email ?


Our mailing address is:
Waterford Hurlers
Waterford, Ireland
Waterford, Waterford
Ireland

no messing about there

Europe,
Earth,
The Universe

Giveitfong

It's time for Derek McGrath to think outside the narrow box in which he has enveloped himself. We have plenty of defenders and midfielders but are rather light up front. Good hurlers can play anywhere. Paudie Prendergast played for two years in the forwards for the Waterford minors and was a handy ball winner. Tadhg Bourke is too good a hurler to be confined to corner back (as Jamie Barron was for four years with the Waterford minors and under 21s). He should be moved up to the forwards. Darragh Fives should be placed in the half forwards. He shouldn't be listed as a substitute if he is not capable of playing for more than 15 minutes (as one poster here has stated). Even if he was only up for 15 minutes, why was he not brought on last Sunday?

The best ball winner in last year's county minor team was DJ Foran, and he's a forward to boot. Why is he not on the panel?

seananigans

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/ballysaggart-push-final-challenge-to-the-dra-263259.html

Ballysaggart push final challenge to the DRA

hurler on de ditch

seananigans wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/ballysaggart-push-final-challenge-to-the-dra-263259.html

Ballysaggart push final challenge to the DRA

who gives a ****

Ropaire

Giveitfong wrote: »

It's time for Derek McGrath to think outside the narrow box in which he has enveloped himself. We have plenty of defenders and midfielders but are rather light up front. Good hurlers can play anywhere. Paudie Prendergast played for two years in the forwards for the Waterford minors and was a handy ball winner. Tadhg Bourke is too good a hurler to be confined to corner back (as Jamie Barron was for four years with the Waterford minors and under 21s). He should be moved up to the forwards. Darragh Fives should be placed in the half forwards. He shouldn't be listed as a substitute if he is not capable of playing for more than 15 minutes (as one poster here has stated). Even if he was only up for 15 minutes, why was he not brought on last Sunday?

The best ball winner in last year's county minor team was DJ Foran, and he's a forward to boot. Why is he not on the panel?

We're playing 14 backs and midfielders in games as it is, we may as well name some more rounded players if they're going to be asked to fill in as extra half backs and midfielders.

Formosa

seananigans wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/ballysaggart-push-final-challenge-to-the-dra-263259.html

Ballysaggart push final challenge to the DRA

Have they no dignity?

It's not fair, they used a couple of U16s to beat us!!!!

hardybuck

Mountainlad wrote: »

Your pretty intent on engaging in it though all the same.

I know I shouldn't be responding to it, I'm just trying to highlight that it's business as usual.

robopaddy

Formosa wrote: »

Have they no dignity?

It's not fair, they used a couple of U16s to beat us!!!!

Was backing them to a extent. But Cant beleive theyre still pursuing it at this stage. No shame.

3ships

Formosa wrote: »

Have they no dignity?

It's not fair, they used a couple of U16s to beat us!!!!

The couple of players used are U-17 this year that's the issue. U-17 is a big difference to U-16 and especially for a junior club. Let the GAA come out with a statement. It needs clarification. Let Creggan have the cup if they want but also let Ballysaggart have their dignity for complying with the rules

seananigans

3ships wrote: »

The couple of players used are U-17 this year that's the issue. U-17 is a big difference to U-16 and especially for a junior club. Let the GAA come out with a statement. It needs clarification. Let Creggan have the cup if they want but also let Ballysaggart have their dignity for complying with the rules

It's up to the dra to overrule the gaa. Prob won't do that. But will publish their decision and reasoning. Whichk is something missing up until now q And they have no agenda not to stock the knife in in regards to the poor handling

3ships

seananigans wrote: »

It's up to the dra to overrule the gaa. Prob won't do that. But will publish their decision and reasoning. Whichk is something missing up until now q And they have no agenda not to stock the knife in in regards to the poor handling

That's fair enough I'd like the GAA to show leadership tho

alllcounty

Yea the GAA should have come out and specify why the result stood. Fair play to Ballysaggart for standing up for themselves, many a weaker person would have nodded earlier and say ‘ah shur maybe next year’. I don’t see why Ballysaggart were penalised for not playing their U16 players and the opposition get a trophy for playing illegal players. Maybe now Ballysaggart will get a proper explanation that they should have got from the GAA earlier.

Giveitfong

The GAA committee which heard the appeal said that the relevant rule was unclear on the issue in question. Accordingly, it cannot be said that Creggan broke the rule and fielded illegal players. The committee have asked the GAA to clarify the rule for future purposes. Of course, the committee's view on the rule's lack of clarity could be found to be incorrect by a higher court. Until that happens we should hold back on apportioning blame.

Liberty Way

It's been a while since I was on here and I see there is a lot going on. The management are getting a bit of a lashing but why?? Isn't that what the players wanted!!! go back to previous years and the questions have been asked and the players look like they are unable to deliver again. Sunday should tell a lot and the Waterford public look like they have lost faith in those responsible for the senior hurling squad. Players look like they do not have the plan the management want delivered.... that is what it looks like from the many posts here. The reality of the situation is there are a lot of players on the squad and they rate themselves better than they actually are..... they have failed to deliver on a regular basis and so inconsistent.. Many have listed players who continue to start and finish games despite their performance so it looks like the management are blinkered or have allegiances..... This will never bond or develop a squad and will only create big divides. As for the warm weather camp will this improve the first touch, work ethic, support play or scoring of a goal or point??? Will the camp help the management to be in a better position to name the best team for Waterford going forward and will they the management be in a better position to allow the players play the game that best suits the squad. If the camp answers all the questions that have been asked sure then it will be so worth it!! There is a fear factor and rightly so big loss to Clare the excuse some used was the Brick was missing okay but for the Kilkenny game he was back and the loss was greater so all to play for on Sunday and restore a little pride and dignity in the County. The manager keeps quoting an education process that education should have progressed on his appointment so time for all concerned to start delivering for the genuine people of the County.....

Liberty Way

Admiration must be given to Ballysagart in their pursuit of what should be justice. Rules are rules and they honoured the rule book so why are the powers that be the GAA authorities not applying the same rule book that Ballysagart adhered to. Unclear!!!! how can that now be the case when the rule states u16 cannot play adult competition. Get real and apply fair play and for once let the authorities be brave and follow the book that all ordinary GAA people adhere to. The least that should be done is give Ballysagart a re fixture. Something similar happened in Limerick in an u21 football fixture and a refixture was given and the club that breeched the rule played without their u16 players and they won the game so the same could happen with Creggan. But as it stands the rule, system and the authorities have cheated Ballysagart for applying the rule book. Justice for Ballysagart that's the least they deserve..

liogairmhordain

Liberty Way wrote: »

Many have listed players who continue to start and finish games despite their performance so it looks like the management are blinkered or have allegiances......

as far as i can make out the only players who started & finished all 5 games in the group stages of the league were Connors, Moran and Philip Mahony. Connors and Moran are in a similar position in that their form isn't great but both are proven championship performers and all-star winners.
Philip Mahony is presumably one of the players people are thinking of when they talk about McGrath's favourites but I think he's had a decent league although the entire defence has obviously been in trouble the last two weeks. I'm a bit surprised in that context that the same full-back line will start again tomorrow.
I agree with those who say Paudie Prendergast should be given more game time (he was immense in Tullamore last summer) and the return of Darragh Fives, Richie Foley and maybe even Tony Browne will give us some more options across the half-back line / midfield. Stephen Daniels & Liam Lawlor to come back in the full-back line as well.
Hopefully we'll repeat our win over Dublin from 3 weeks ago and stay in division 1A but its way way way too early to come to any judgment about the management team (the clocks haven't gone forward yet) and ultimately it's all about championship. As someone pointed out above we've tried out loads of players in the league (more than most counties) and things will presumably become clearer as we get closer to the Cork game.

Ropaire

liogairmhordain wrote: »

as far as i can make out the only players who started & finished all 5 games in the group stages of the league were Connors, Moran and Philip Mahony. Connors and Moran are in a similar position in that their form isn't great but both are proven championship performers and all-star winners.
Philip Mahony is presumably one of the players people are thinking of when they talk about McGrath's favourites but I think he's had a decent league although the entire defence has obviously been in trouble the last two weeks. I'm a bit surprised in that context that the same full-back line will start again tomorrow.
I agree with those who say Paudie Prendergast should be given more game time (he was immense in Tullamore last summer) and the return of Darragh Fives, Richie Foley and maybe even Tony Browne will give us some more options across the half-back line / midfield. Stephen Daniels & Liam Lawlor to come back in the full-back line as well.
Hopefully we'll repeat our win over Dublin from 3 weeks ago and stay in division 1A but its way way way too early to come to any judgment about the management team (the clocks haven't gone forward yet) and ultimately it's all about championship. As someone pointed out above we've tried out loads of players in the league (more than most counties) and things will presumably become clearer as we get closer to the Cork game.

As far as i cam remember phillip mahony came off injured against Clare. You're right in that we have tried alot of players, but some guys seem to get picked regardless of how poorly they play. Brian O'sullivan has been hit and miss, Nagle has had 1 bad game for me and he gets dropped. For all the players tried we're going backwards in terms of results and the selections made aren't all that radical to the point management might even stumble across a player dominating somewhere we're short of options, i.e. half forwards. Management wont change a gameplan that isn't working, when the players can't fit the system change the system to suot what we have, It reminds me more and more of Trappatoni every week, certain players undroppable and a negative system never changes to the point it looks like they have no confidence in the players they send out. This is our last competitive game before Cork and so far we've seen very little positive bar tadgh, shane fives on his day and paudi mahony develop into serious options to start vs Cork, heres hoping after tomorrow we've got a bit more optimism.

What time is throw in?

Deise Hurler

Ropaire wrote: »

As far as i cam remember phillip mahony came off injured against Clare. You're right in that we have tried alot of players, but some guys seem to get picked regardless of how poorly they play. Brian O'sullivan has been hit and miss, Nagle has had 1 bad game for me and he gets dropped. For all the players tried we're going backwards in terms of results and the selections made aren't all that radical to the point management might even stumble across a player dominating somewhere we're short of options, i.e. half forwards. Management wont change a gameplan that isn't working, when the players can't fit the system change the system to suot what we have, It reminds me more and more of Trappatoni every week, certain players undroppable and a negative system never changes to the point it looks like they have no confidence in the players they send out. This is our last competitive game before Cork and so far we've seen very little positive bar tadgh, shane fives on his day and paudi mahony develop into serious options to start vs Cork, heres hoping after tomorrow we've got a bit more optimism.

Well said. Have to agree with all of that.

HillFarmer

Paul Flynn 16 in the Munster minor 92 Final against Tip.
Scored 3-5, Jesus he was some talent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73vFuEwJOq8

Has he any sons coming up ..?

KevIRL

HillFarmer wrote: »

Paul Flynn 16 in the Munster minor 92 Final against Tip.
Scored 3-5, Jesus he was some talent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73vFuEwJOq8

Has he any sons coming up ..?

Nice goal from a certain D McGrath for Waterford's second

Mountainlad

liogairmhordain wrote: »

as far as i can make out the only players who started & finished all 5 games in the group stages of the league were Connors, Moran and Philip Mahony. Connors and Moran are in a similar position in that their form isn't great but both are proven championship performers and all-star winners.
Philip Mahony is presumably one of the players people are thinking of when they talk about McGrath's favourites but I think he's had a decent league although the entire defence has obviously been in trouble the last two weeks. I'm a bit surprised in that context that the same full-back line will start again tomorrow.
I agree with those who say Paudie Prendergast should be given more game time (he was immense in Tullamore last summer) and the return of Darragh Fives, Richie Foley and maybe even Tony Browne will give us some more options across the half-back line / midfield. Stephen Daniels & Liam Lawlor to come back in the full-back line as well.
Hopefully we'll repeat our win over Dublin from 3 weeks ago and stay in division 1A but its way way way too early to come to any judgment about the management team (the clocks haven't gone forward yet) and ultimately it's all about championship. As someone pointed out above we've tried out loads of players in the league (more than most counties) and things will presumably become clearer as we get closer to the Cork game.

Wouldn't compare Noel Connors and Kevin Moran's form at all. Thought Connors was outstanding v Tipp, and got a lot of praise after the Dublin game too. Also think Philip Mahony has stood up well in the games I saw, bar last weekend but as you say be harsh to hold that against him, no back really came away with credit on the day.

Tony Browne is not an option. I don't think Liam Lawlor will be starting, given S Fives will have 6 games under his belt, think it's unlikely that management would make a bold move like that in a contrary position like full back. D Fives is one player sure to come back in, and Foley might do too. Dunno what the story is with B O Halloran. Given the nature of Daniels injury it's hard for me too see him featuring prominently this year. Also think people can forget about Donie Breathnach coming into the team this year.

So the starting team you have maybe max 3, but far more likely 2 or even 1 to come in. Now look at the players we've tried out compared to other teams:


Kilkenny: 30
Galway: 28
Tipp: 27
Waterford: 26
Clare: 26
Dublin: 25

And Galway still have Joe Canning to come back in while Tipp aren't playing some of their u21 footballers until their involvement in that is finished. Clare are happy enough with that pool of players they have as they're all quite young and all Ireland champions. The only team with less options than us are Dublin, who have played everyone that played in their final game against Cork last year in the league.

They are suffering from some losing lads to football. Colm Cronin is being talked about as the big emerging player for them this year, but of the players on the 2011 All Ireland minor finalists, I would have Cormac Costello, Emmet O Conghaile and Ciaran Kilkenny all ahead of him. Those three, along with established defender Tomás Brady, are all playing football.


When McGrath talks about patience trying things out I'm pretty sure that's exclusive to his system. Factor in trying to fit players in in different ways, but in the 3 games I was at I saw basically the same style of play employed in all 3 games. Only really worked against Galway, though had they been more accurate first half against Tipp we might be saying it worked against them. Failed miserably last weekend.

Basic point is of course all managers deserve at least one year, and the championship will be where we are judged. But given I did start to believe at the start of this campaign that Derek McGrath does have a pretty good hurling brain, I am concerned about the obvious problems we had last week that were present before but just became exposed by a top team last weekend. Looking for something more tomorrow.