Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

Motivator

Our backs & midfield were excellent last year & even the year before were very good. How in gods name they've ended up like this in less than a year is beyond me. Only one man to blame is McGrath, I'll give him time to turn it around but even at this stage the excuses are running out. Tactically he has been shown up in all the games so far this year. Take Mahony's frees out of it & how many points would we have scored in the league? About 10. One of the most frustrating things today was when a free man was found he took an absolute age to get the ball under control & then when it was finally in the hand or on the Hurley there was 3 or 4 kilkenny players there to win it back.

I know I said it earlier but why was Seamus prendergast brought on after 50 minutes? The game was over & Seamus usually takes a while to get going. When he did come on I'm struggling to remember one high ball dropped in at him.

The most worrying thing, not just today by the way, is the apparent undying respect the players have for McGrath. He's the man everyone wanted & to quote one player "we'd run through walls for him". Where is that determination & fight in the games? Now, I'm not knocking fellas on purpose, I've nothing but admiration for what they do but Jesus Christ if they're going to talk the talk they better walk the walk. Everything was set up for a huge year, it's only march & it's blowing up in their faces. McGrath looks lost out there, fair enough he's new to the inter county scene but this much talked about backroom team is apparently full of experienced men. Anytime the camera panned to the bench today All I saw was fellas laughing & joking on the bench. That's surely not right? After all, wasn't this magical back room team the reason this management team were given the job? Like i said the players wanted this guy so they've only themselves to blame if things don't work out.

Jarjohn

avonmore wrote: »

Are you on drugs?

I am fed up with listening to this rubbish.

We are not as good any anyone from 1-9.

In the muck and the s**t in Walsh Park, maybe. Many of our backs would need a half acre to turn in.

We were destroyed in every position from 1-9 today.

The usual tripe is being be trotted out again.

Lazy statements, like last Sunday's, trying to defend our backs and centre field, i.e. the forwards cannot win ball.

Ok, we have issues winning ball in our forward line but that is not the reason we have conceded something like 9-40 in two games.


It's a two way street by the way. How many aimless high balls were skied out of our defence today, even when we had time to pick out guys.

We couldn't even defend today from Kilkenny puck outs.

Jesus, four of our backs going for one long high direct ball into our half back line with a loose Kilkenny forward standing waiting behind them to just get possession and bury a goal.

It was juvenile stuff back there today. There wasn't one of our guys 1-9, man for man, able to win his position.

We were destroyed for pace and hurling back there and it will continue as the ground hardens up.

We didn't even show that we knew how to defend today.

None of our guys seemed to know what their job was.

The thing is, I could take being beaten if I could see what we were even trying to do.

Unfortunately, this is as aimless and bereft, both individually and as a unit as I have ever seen a Waterford team.

Well said avonmore. The distribution of ball was awful. On another point the pasting we have got in the 1st half v Clare and the 2nd half today is shocking...no worrying, very worrying. 4-15 to 0-4 and 3-16 to 0-6 today. Don't mind the talk we have so and so to come back, everyone else has others to come in as well. Just hoping we can get over the Dubs, as coming back up is no formality.

Mountainlad

Been gone for the last two weeks (missed you too) so hadn't seen the last two matches. Was a bit shocked when I heard the result last weekend and other then seeing Peter Duggan's goal from last weekend I didn't get to see what happened.

So what I saw was a one man full forward line, where the two corner forwards dropped deep and basically tried to create space inside. As seems to happen year on year, we have gone to Nowlan Park and the delivery to the forwards has been terrible. But for that to happen so often against Kilkenny, when say it was perfectly fine a few weeks ago v Galway, would say it must have something to do with them.

That said there were times it just wasn't good enough today. One big problem we seemed to have was the corner forwards today didn't understand what they were being asked to do. Literally, we seemed to be playing the ball to the wings and then running with it into the corners. How are we going to score from the corner flags.

There was pretty much zero interplay or use of the space created today, no real movement in the forward line. There is no point in handpassing a ball too a man in front of you who has a little more space if he is going to put it in the exact same place you would. The delay in the delivery means forwards may already have made their run and you've now given the back a chance to get into position.

It was very naive to play Brian O'Sullivan at full forward against JJ Delaney, probably thinking he would expose him in the space with his pace, when he had difficulties with a Tipp rookie in the first game. Unless he gets a perfect ball, it seems he is not likely to win it. Even when he did today (Shane Sullys sideline first half) it seems he has difficulties. And he stayed on the field for the whole game again. I don't want to have a go at anyone, I don't doubt he's trying and he has some ability, but it wasn't working for him at all today and there comes a point where you say enough.


Compare this then to the treatment of Jamie Barron today. I have a lot of time for the lad, I think he's a very talented forward which was clear to be seen from his goal against Tipperary last year on his starting competitive debut for Waterford. In a team that is crying out for some level of a goal threat, why would you not play someone who had the confidence to go straight for goal in those circumstances last year? It's the position that he plays for FMW, which has seen him be fast-tracked to the senior team and abandoning the decisions to play him in the backline in previous underage teams.

It was deeply frustrating for me to see him moved from wing forward/midfield to man marking Colin Fennelly, their most impressive forward in this league campaign. You're putting a 20 year old whos strengths are his touch, pace and eye for a score on a 25/26 year old who is an on form, powerful linebreaker (for want of a better word) who's been clinical of late. The difference in physicality was obvious and the very first thing that happened was Fennelly got a score.

Not saying someone else shouldn't have gone back there, in fact it released Brick deeper and actually think Waterford got a handle on it for a little bit, but a terrible mismatch and waste of a players talents.

Thought it was going to be next move the bench (that cop out was reserved for later), but instead he was moved to centre forward. So we've gone from wing forward, to marking their best player (at the minute) to trying to take on the man charged with being the keystone of the Kilkenny defence. Utter madness, and though I have less than a limited knowledge of body language he looked pretty demoralised on the field to me.

Kevin Moran looks like he doesn't know what to do in the current system, and even the day against Galway when we were well on top I was less than impressed with his performance. This is concerning given he was the key man when Derek McGrath was in charge of De La Salle.

Ray Barry was excellent today when he came on and it's good to see that he is continuing on from where he left off last year, wasn't sure what way that would go. Austin Gleeson was also ok, have to take into account it was his first start. Mahony's free taking another highlight.


Comparing this to last year, a lot of ball went into last year too into an unfit Shane Walsh and most of it came back out. That said, where Waterford were ahead at half time was based on a short game, where the ball was worked well into deep positions that we were able to score from long range. This failed second half due to a strong wind against us and the coming of the rain which meant controlling the ball was harder and errors and slower ball started to appear, which suited Kilkenny, coupled with a lack of a physical forward line to win enough ball when it was played longer.


It was a hell of a lot better than what we saw today. I am not at all getting involved in a debate about who should be manager. I want what's best for Waterford and couldn't care less who wears the bainisteoir bib. I will reserve anything like a damning criticism or total dismay til I see how this team fairs in the championship, when things really matter. I would like to believe there is a long term plan here looking ahead to May. All that said though, Derek McGrath will find the patience he has asked for run very thin if getting beaten by 20~ points is to happen again.

chinguetti

Motivator wrote: »

McGrath. He's the man everyone wanted & to quote one player "we'd run through walls for him".

Well they might run through a wall for McGrath but by God, they didn't play hurling for him today, esp in the second half.

jack o shea

should be made train in the wicklow mountains not portugal ffs.

thinkstoomuch1

Look ,the majiority of people know here,im a very ,straight out ,no barrels held back poster,espiceally when it comes to Cork ,and dont accept or glorify failure or go for morale victorys.
There is a lot of issuse in waterford ,alright ,that need to be sorted,but what i would say is Waterford had two huge games back to back ,against two ,not one ,but two Cody and Davy ,that are Ruthless and were unlucky that they had no game against lesser teams to find there feet after last week.I wouldnt be calling for mangements head just yet.



After Ennis,the last place you want to go for redemption is Knowlan park ,and Cats have a freshness ,and new lads playing for there places so the Hunger in kk is back this year.
Waterford must be realistic,never going to challenge for all ireland this year or be close.


They and i geuinely mean this,arent miles of the rest of the chasing pack .Kilkenny have got 14 goals ,clare ten ,and most of these at home .I gurantee you as cats and clare showed would beaten most teams out the gate at home this league at home.

Kilkenny bar awful shooting would have beaten dubs away ,if they got them at home would have beaten them well.
Clare didnt beat galway today but has cusack had said on rte,Clare didnt target that game.Jesus 14 men and they had no intensity ,and happy draw,davy wnt admit it but he wanted to keep the lads grounded.
He targeted tipp and waterford and both paid the price.Today they had already qualifed .


My point is no other team in the top 8 would have done hugely better than waterford away from home to those two teams,the top two teams in the country ,and waterford unlike Galway,dublin ,and Tipp have new management.MY point is waterford are way off the top two but i would say much not much separtates ,them from galway and ,dublin ,and tippereary(ye dominated them up play)


Cork have been poor in 4 awful games bar today we showed better ,and yes we would be favourites but we have problems at 3 and half back and 9 and trying to refine a game plan ,short game ,so were not miles ahead of ye at all .

Limerick are the same,o grady has a work in progress.
I wouldnt judge Mcgrath on the last two games hughely as ,i said no other team bar the top two would have done much better up there.



I said it on the cork thread ,last week if had to go to ennis or knowlan park we would with our weakness been beaten by ten or more as i gurantee you clare and kilkenny would have got goals as our full back is a problem aera .

The real test to see is Sunday .And i said it on the cork thread ,i expect a close game but i think ye will edge it at home.


Ye are only the county with cats up to today that used most players 30 in 5 games ,and the only county that has the lowest number of players that had started all game,,in just 6 lads ,out side the Cats with just 3.But kilkenny have such depth and an expierence and belief Cody ,with all ireland winners ,there transition is always smoother as wateford dont have that winning expierence ,and its a new management team .



A lot of expiermenation by Mcgrath and company so far.Now Dublin are beatable at home .Win that and ye stay up ,and against top teams have learned a lot regards yere squad in the league.Cork had 5 games,yet one real test ,the next one is sunday.If we loose ,we had just two.



Waterford shouldnt judge mcgrath too much on the last two games.It what happens from Sunday on ,is more of a gauge as an all ireland semifinal and building foundations with a new team is the target realisticallz for this year .You cant be Great at the start of any new reigme but you must Start from the bottom and work up to be great.


Beat dublin,and yere not in a dark place,as its new management .A loss and yes its a huge setback to develop a team next year in a poor divison against poor teams bar one.


Waterford are the only team in div 1 with a new management team though ,and as always a maiden voyage has stromy seas to encountes.The key is to stay afloat ,and that test is next sunday .
All is far from lost with waterford hurling.

robopaddy

jack o shea wrote: »

should be made train in the wicklow mountains not portugal ffs.

Dont know what ur beef is with waterford tbh. Not like you have a big rivalry with us or anything. You always seem to suddenly appear here after a bad defeat or when u know the mood is low, just to stick the knife in. Not a word out of you after we win.

robopaddy

Whether we beat dublin or not at this stage is irellevant imo. The only benefit would be a morale boost going into championship but staying in division one is not that much a priority anymore. This management team have a massive rebuilding job in the months and even years ahead and thats the real focus. Whether its in 1a or 1b so be it. League tables dont lie and if we go down we go down and accept our level. Stay up and well probably have to ship a few more of these beatings again next year.

culbaire

robopaddy wrote: »

Whether we beat dublin or not at this stage is irellevant imo. The only benefit would be a morale boost going into championship but staying in division one is not that much a priority anymore. This management team have a massive rebuilding job in the months and even years ahead and thats the real focus. Whether its in 1a or 1b so be it. League tables dont lie and if we go down we go down and accept our level. Stay up and well probably have to ship a few more of these beatings again next year.

Last year John Mullane sniped from the sidelines. Any word from John now?Last year Waterford remained in the top division. Last year Waterford put it up to Kilkenny. I wonder would you make the same arguments if the last management team were still in place. This management team is not going to get years to sort out this. The county cant afford it. What you are now doing is preparing excuses in advance. The reality is that there is a lack of sufficient expertise on this management team. Its about time people accept it. Outside expertise must be drafted in to help the management team. Otherwise we will be in division three in two years.

dzilla

Mullane was on RTE radio after the game. Said that he wasnt happy with the display and was concerned. A lot tamer than his views on Skully Ryan

cul beag

Just a suggestion here but has the eye been taken off the ball here with all this fundraising that's going on at the moment? Players selling lines for correct scores and then bag packing over the weekend aswell? I am not for one minute making excuses for the shambles that we're in but surely its not helping when your manager is away every wk having to fundraise for the team and then the players are having to do the same? There's no getting away from it but we're in a right mess its hard to see us getting a result against Dublin for the simple reason we look devoid of ideas both on and off the field.

Deskjockey

culbaire wrote: »

Last year John Mullane sniped from the sidelines. Any word from John now?Last year Waterford remained in the top division. Last year Waterford put it up to Kilkenny. I wonder would you make the same arguments if the last management team were still in place.

He's hardly going to tear strips off his brother in law now is he in fairness Would make for a difficult Christmas dinner.

For God's sake can you leave John have an enjoyable Christmas dinner with no unbearable tension would you

robopaddy

culbaire wrote: »

Last year John Mullane sniped from the sidelines. Any word from John now?Last year Waterford remained in the top division. Last year Waterford put it up to Kilkenny. I wonder would you make the same arguments if the last management team were still in place. This management team is not going to get years to sort out this. The county cant afford it. What you are now doing is preparing excuses in advance. The reality is that there is a lack of sufficient expertise on this management team. Its about time people accept it. Outside expertise must be drafted in to help the management team. Otherwise we will be in division three in two years.

Will you listen to yourself. Division 3 in 2 years? Im not preparing excuses for anyone im not pro this person or anti that person which is the problem with most people on this board. Its about time you accepted that we aint what we used to be. Look at the forwards we have lost in the past few years. Flynn, kelly, mullane, shanahan, ken etc. We just havent been able to replace the likes of them over night. Unfortunately the expectations of many of us is still the same as when we had those players.

Deise Vu

dzilla wrote: »

Mullane was on RTE radio after the game. Said that he wasnt happy with the display and was concerned. A lot tamer than his views on Skully Ryan

Mullane was in Semple Stadium for RTE so he said he hadn't seen the Waterford match but obviously was not happy with the result. I have no idea how you are can extrapolate that to last years management.

seananigans

Fact is we retired no one from last year and as these leads are on the younger side on the way up So the only thing that's changed is the management. Is willing to give the benefit of the don't the first time but there has add to be an improvement

STIG83

We should have won yesterday, Keith Barry had predicted we beat KK by 4 to 5 points :pac:

deisedude

STIG83 wrote: »

We should have won yesterday, Keith Barry had predicted we beat KK by 4 to 5 points :pac:

He said the same in 2008!

STIG83

deisedude wrote: »

He said the same in 2008!

He needs to stop predicting the Waterford hurlers. Twice he has jinxed them.

Ropaire

robopaddy wrote: »

Will you listen to yourself. Division 3 in 2 years? Im not preparing excuses for anyone im not pro this person or anti that person which is the problem with most people on this board. Its about time you accepted that we aint what we used to be. Look at the forwards we have lost in the past few years. Flynn, kelly, mullane, shanahan, ken etc. We just havent been able to replace the likes of them over night. Unfortunately the expectations of many of us is still the same as when we had those players.

We're all pro waterford here, and we all want to see the county team do well, but last year the same pool of players were punching above their weight in a decent setup that had scope for improvement. The foundation was there to see. So far this year they're being massacred and there are serious concerns about whether this can improve, no encouraging signs so far and some baffling calls being made. Some people are over estimating where we're at, but we shouldnt readily accept mediocrity or a return to regular 30 point hidings and say "sure it was good while it lasted". We'll see how we're fixed after the Dubs match but a big game is needed after the shambles of the last fortnight. I believe we need 1a hurling to maintain and progress, you dont send a senior club team to intermediate for a year to boost confidence, why would you accept to take a step down at county level?

When is this coin toss too, today?

jack o shea

you happy with the last 2 wkends showing from your hurlers? i dont see kk or clare heading off to portugal why the hell are waterford?bull**** of the highest order this is.

robopaddy

jack o shea wrote: »

you happy with the last 2 wkends showing from your hurlers? i dont see kk or clare heading off to portugal why the hell are waterford?bull**** of the highest order this is.

Troll alert

3ships

Michael Ryan had a dificult start to his tenure too. Very poor performances away to Cork and Tipp that year had us on the brink but we recovered when a couple of players came back and the Gods of hurling permutations were on our side. Two win out of 5 is as good as we can manage at this level, this year,last year, next year whoever is in charge. Have we really gone back from last year against Kilkenny or are the Cats just way better and back to their level, I know which one I think is true.

Clare and Kilkenny are obviously better than us at the moment and there is no system that can make up for the simple difference of quality and energy we saw in the last two weeks. Returning players and a break from the grinding fixture list will improve things going forward I'm sure. Enough to compete with those two teams prob not ,, the rest yes. Remember Clare and Kilkenny only won one more game than us and had the benefit from an extra home game. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be worried about next week cause I think we need two weeks to work on a few things in training.

Anyway the only way for a Waterford hurling manager to get recognition here is to win an all ireland .. oh wait that didn't make any difference last year. I'm interested to see if we could improve anywhere for next week. Maurice will be back, Seamus should be up for it, Jamie barron playing as a forward would be a good idea, I would just go with Moran at 7 and Phillip Mahony and Molumphy in midfield.

robopaddy

Ropaire wrote: »

We're all pro waterford here, and we all want to see the county team do well, but last year the same pool of players were punching above their weight in a decent setup that had scope for improvement. The foundation was there to see. So far this year they're being massacred and there are serious concerns about whether this can improve, no encouraging signs so far and some baffling calls being made. Some people are over estimating where we're at, but we shouldnt readily accept mediocrity or a return to regular 30 point hidings and say "sure it was good while it lasted". We'll see how we're fixed after the Dubs match but a big game is needed after the shambles of the last fortnight. I believe we need 1a hurling to maintain and progress, you dont send a senior club team to intermediate for a year to boost confidence, why would you accept to take a step down at county level?

When is this coin toss too, today?

I agree with pretty much everything above but at the same time if we do end up in 1b its not the end of the world. If you look at the teams you have limerick who are a top team. Wexford and offaly are serious proposition aswell. Laois are improving and going up to antrim is a trip no county enjoys. those would be games we would be going out to win. I suspect a lot more of the minors will be breaking through next year aswell and maybe a few games against these sides would be a good education for them rather than running around no mans land like against kk or clare the last couple weeks.

Not settling for mediocrity just being realistic. Hopefully we can lift it to topple the dubs and it wont come to that.

Ps not sure about the toss but that game is setfor sunday fortnight

robopaddy

Ropaire wrote: »

We're all pro waterford here, and we all want to see the county team do well, but last year the same pool of players were punching above their weight in a decent setup that had scope for improvement. The foundation was there to see. So far this year they're being massacred and there are serious concerns about whether this can improve, no encouraging signs so far and some baffling calls being made. Some people are over estimating where we're at, but we shouldnt readily accept mediocrity or a return to regular 30 point hidings and say "sure it was good while it lasted". We'll see how we're fixed after the Dubs match but a big game is needed after the shambles of the last fortnight. I believe we need 1a hurling to maintain and progress, you dont send a senior club team to intermediate for a year to boost confidence, why would you accept to take a step down at county level?

When is this coin toss too, today?

I agree with pretty much everything above but at the same time if we do end up in 1b its not the end of the world. If you look at the teams you have limerick who are a top team. Wexford and offaly are serious proposition aswell. Laois are improving and going up to antrim android s a trip no county enjoys. those would be games we would be going out to win. I suspect a lot more of the minors will be breaking through next year aswell and maybe a few games against these sides would be a good education for them rather than running around no mans land like against kk or clare the last couple weeks.

Not setting for mediocrity just being realistic. Hopefully we can lift it to topple the dubs and it wont come to that.

robopaddy

jack o shea wrote: »

you happy with the last 2 wkends showing from your hurlers? i dont see kk or clare heading off to portugal why the hell are waterford?bull**** of the highest order this is.

Troll alert

jack o shea

im not trolling at all robo, id be outraged if my county team were planning a good oul jolly to portugal at the expense of supporters after getting the crap bet out of them 2 wkends in a row,dont understand why you wouldnt be the same.

seananigans

Of the minors i would be lookijg forward to see dj the most i think he brings something different to the team Bennett is great and all but his skills arent as unique . although we could do with someone with an eye for goals

tonc76

jack o shea wrote: »

im not trolling at all robo, id be outraged if my county team were planning a good oul jolly to portugal at the expense of supporters after getting the crap bet out of them 2 wkends in a row,dont understand why you wouldnt be the same.

The players are using their GPA grants along with fundraising to fund the trip. Management are paying their own way and all that are travelling are taking time from study/work at their own expense to do so. Get you facts right before spouting sh!t in future

deiseach

tonc76 wrote: »

The players are using their GPA grants along with fundraising to fund the trip. Management are paying their own way and all that are travelling are taking time from study/work at their own expense to do so. Get you facts right before spouting sh!t in future

Well said, but you are wasting your time with your 'reason' and 'facts'.

Horseboxhead

Sunday was very worrying, looks like Derek and his gang are trying to prove that they are the most intelligent boys in the class, and then expecting everyone else then to be amazed at their knowledge, without actually looking at the material they have to work with , and then creating a system that will maximise there strengths and cover as many weaknesses as possible.
Sunday was just a follow on from the Clare game but we havent learned anything, and certainly the players are still not tuned into what derek wants them to do, and then got fed up with it about 10 min into the second half , and then everybody went and did their own thing, some hit it short, some balloned it into a no man full forward line[when they won it], some hid, some ran around the perifrey of the game, and some did all of the above, but the old adage sheep in a heap sprang to mind.
We beat two ****e teams who can only perfrom at home[based on Results], we will not beat Dublin again, simple as that , not like this .
I remember Davy fitz was trying to implement this sort of a system on waterford and people were bucking mad, allow them hurl we used to say, even if we got bet, we could still st least see some artristry, of invention or pure skill,but none of that was allowed, now we have the same and a waterford man is doing it, System is not working, amd it will not work quick enough or be successfull enough with this group as we do not have the same hard working forwards that Clare has, plus davy had to change the system last year v Limerick or they would have won nothing, and have not reverted to it since.
Its not about being the most intelligent, its about Knowing what you have and getting the best out of them, but sometimes its about common sence, What was jamie barron at yesterday?, who was picking up Henry, walter walsh and at times any of the other forwards?, why are we playing the ball short at times looking for the perfect pass, ?, being blocked down and a score against?, when the ball is in the opposition half, they have a less chance of scoring,why were we making brian sullivan the lone forward, when high ball into the square does not suit him?, but does Seamus pender , so we drop him?, Why would we play Austin gleeson Corner forward,but not really, let him do what Jamie barron is at, and play out in the middle, why does Kevin moran constantly have to take 10 steps to many with the ball on his hurl at least 3 times a game?, how come if stephen molumphy is running towards goal there is no one coming to him, or standing off him to take a pass,like kilkenny do constantly?, all simple stuff, but very annoying.
Maybe it will click with us v Dublin and we won't look back, but lets hope the lady is for turning, as this is not Waterford hurling, just trying very hard to be clever and just looking silly.
Yeah we have players to come back , but mostly backs and some forwards who have not quite done it yet, hope im wrong but the learning curve has got steeper and steeper, hope i'm wrong but being tactically aware is not the same as being tactically astute. C'mon Waterford get it going.