Seriously, I am not grievously offending you !

SpaceTime

Well, the stats for Ireland would tend to show that it's pretty safe to drive here.

However, I do think there's a major problem with lack of basic knowledge of motorway rules. I don't know how we'd address that either as they've never been in the driving test and they're a relatively new experience to many drivers (especially those outside any of the major cities where at least some DC / Motorway has existed for decades).

I've driven a lot on the continent and I would say Irish driving's generally a lot slower and more relaxed than many countries (including the UK.. although rural spots are similar to Ireland) and that in general drivers don't do some of the crazy things you see in France and Belgium.

UK:
Driving tends to be too fast and people tailgate almost all the time on the motorways which leaves no room for error at all.
In bigger urban areas, they also tend to drive quite aggressively and don't seem to be able to accept that people can be in the wrong lane / make an error.

France:
Dangerous motorway driving - Less tailgating than the UK, but more cutting across other drivers and dangerous overtaking.

Urban France : blocking junctions, ignoring pedestrian crossings, ignorant aggressive use of roundabouts.

Rural France : Boy racer types on D-Roads where they're unlikely to encounter speed traps. These roads are equivalent to our R-Roads.

Belgium:

Just abysmal driving in general by both Belgian and non-Belgian cars. Lots of cutting people off, no indicator use. Also the infrastructure (especially in Wallonia) is very old and often not in the best state of repair. So you get bumpy motorways with badly designed junctions that can put you into some really hair-raising situations at times.

Then Brussels is a special case entirely due to a combination of bad local drivers and bad diplomatic corps and visiting drivers (loads of them due to all the EU and International institutions). Many of them seem to crash into stationary objects like for example, when I lived there our VDSL line went out several times because cars had driven into the Belgacom cabinet on the path outside! It was also very common to hear crunches and bangs as people backed into parked cars / drove over ramps at way too high speeds etc etc.

Spain:

Has improved immeasurably in the last decade but the motorways (especially in the tourist-laden areas) are often full of people drifting along at about 80-90km/h.

Lots of non-use of indicators is common and the rountabout rules are nuts i.e. where the outside lane of a multi-lane roundabout has absolute proprity. So, if you're in the middle lane you have to yield to any traffic in the outer lane (which can overtake you!). The result is that everyone uses the outside lane to access all exits (or even to completely go around the roundabout).

In general though, Spanish drivers seem to be quite sensible and not aggressive these days and the infrastructure is top-notch mostly (there are still some badly designed junctions around though on older DC / motorways layouts as the designs could date from the 1950s/60s)

Italy:

Speed seemed to be the main issue and really aggressive use of roundabouts which resulted in you not being able to get on to them a lot of the time.

Passing out on a motorway was terrifying in a lot of areas. You'd look in your mirror and there was nothing behind as far as the horizon.. Pass and you'd suddenly see some little old lady in a sports car at your bumper because she was doing about 200km/h.

...

The USA:

Everything's fine as long as people are driving in straight lines! I found Bostonian drivers pretty aggressive and tend to cut you off, undertake you etc etc.

It varies a lot though as the standard of road and amount of traffic can be rather dramatically different from place to place. In general though, the standard of driving was mediocre at best and the signage and junction layout can also be quite bad on older highways (and there are plenty of them!)

A lot of drivers seem to be quite oblivious to what's going on around them at times too (at least that's my experience of them).

Statistically speaking, the US is a LOT more dangerous to drive in than Ireland or most of Northern Europe.

In general, no country's perfect for driving but I think Ireland ranks quite well.

The only major issue I have here is that we need to educate people about motorway / DC usage. There are just some clueless people who have no idea that you shouldn't drive in the overtaking lane etc

Sandwlch

DubTony wrote: »

Whether the OP was speeding is completely irrelevant. It's not up to us to act when somebody else is breaking the rules of the road. There's a gang of fellahs and girls whose job it is to look after that.

Of course its relevant. If someone is breaking the rules then they have no basis or credibility for legitimately complaining about someone else who may or may not have been breaking them. If they do, its just hypocritcal whinging.

Ken.

What's needed at motorway and dual carriageway exit ramps is some of them spikes that go down when you drive over them going in the correct direction but shred your tyres going the wrong way.

If you get your tyres shredded by them it should be automatic 1 year off the road and busted right back to doing your theory test.

SpaceTime

One simple thing too would be a series of arrows at each junction painted on the road surface (maybe 5 or 6 of them) pointing the correct flow of traffic.

I think the signage is pretty obvious though as it is.

I would suggest if you're driving down the wrong way of a motorway, you should probably have your license taken off you pending a full eye sight and driving competence assessment.

I mean, people can sometimes have serious visual issues / cognitive issues without realising it.

Some kind of psychological and visual assessment wouldn't be unreasonable if you've done something that mind-boggling dangerous before you're let behind a wheel again.

I'd actually argue the same for people charged with dangerous driving too. They should be assessed for 'roadworthiness'

wexie

SpaceTime wrote: »

I mean, people can sometimes have serious visual issues / cognitive issues without realising it.

I think in the majority of cases it's not so much the realising as the wanting to admit it. Especially in the case of older people I feel it's up to their relatives to talk to them and make them realise they're not safe on the road before they case accidents.

Is there such a thing as testing for older drivers in Ireland?

Pawwed Rig

wexie wrote: »

Is there such a thing as testing for older drivers in Ireland?

The period of time a driving licence is issued for depends on the age of the applicant. There are 4 age brackets that the period of a licence falls under.
• If you are under 60 years of age, you may apply for a 3-year (on medical grounds) or a 10-year licence. Since 19 January 2013 the maximum period is 5 years for a bus and/or truck driving licence.
• If you are older than 60 but younger than 67 years of age, you may apply for a licence that will expire the day before your 70th birthday. The maximum period is 5 years for a bus and/or truck driving licence.
• If you are older than 67 but under 70 years of age, you may apply for a 3-year licence.
• If you are over the age of 70, you will need a certification of fitness to drive by your doctor to apply for a 3-year or a one-year licence.

SpaceTime

I'd rather not worry about their egos too much and protect other road users tbh.

Yes its a bit embarrassing to discover you're a hazard on the road but that's life.

Sunhill

"Hi, Dad, sorry for phoning you in the car but I know you're on the M50 now and there was an item this minute on the telly about somebody driving the wrong way on the M50 so I thought I'd just warn you in case you meet him."

"A lot they know! It isn't just one car, it's HUNDREDS!"

Pawwed Rig

SpaceTime wrote: »

Yes its a bit embarrassing to discover you're a hazard on the road but that's life.

It is not that easy. It is a very difficult conversation to have where you are effectively taking away someones independence permanently. The persons life as they know it is over and they need to rely more and more on others from there on.

That is not to say it is not a necessary conversation but gauging when to force the issue is also difficult. Doctors are not always that responsible in forcing long term customers off the road

SpaceTime

I think though the RSA should be able to identify drivers who need to be checked out for ability to control a vehicle safely:

1) You drive up the wrong side of a dual carriageway / motorway.
2) You are done for dangerous driving.
3) You are done for drunk driving (especially if very over the limit / repeat offender)

There should be some kind of a formal reassessment of your ability to drive safely and whether you're capable of controlling a vehicle at all.

It wouldn't necessarily mean being put off the road permanently, but it might mean requiring further driver education or new glasses in some cases.

In others, it might mean being banned e.g. if you're incapable of not guaranteeing you won't drive drunk or you're just totally reckless.

I think we're making the mistake here of assuming that all older drivers are risky, that's not the case at all.
There have been cases of middle-aged and young drivers doing rather odd things on the road too.

glynf

I usually indicate for 10-15 secs. and if they don't get the message flash & then indicate again. If they don't get the message,

If they don't have the decency & manners to let others pass, **** it-I just undertake them.

RobAMerc

Sandwlch wrote: »

It is relevant, OP states there was line of cars to overtake ahead of him. If travelling at the limit and about to overtake them also then she is entitled to stay in that lane until she has done so, rather than pull over, delay herself, to facililitate someone who is already outside the allowed rules of the road.
But lets not speculate until we have the asnwer, maybe the OP wasnt speeding, and she was indeed wrong.

Seriously, you are making an argument that I was in the wrong here by totally making up the scenario and putting words in my post that were not there.

There was no one inside her when I flashed, there was ample opportunity for her to pull in without slowing down, all she had to do was driver her f**King car.
Whether I was speeding or not is totally irrelevant, if a car comes up behind you and there is nothing to your left (not 2kms up the road ) pull over and let them past, end of !

Sandwlch

RobAMerc wrote: »

Seriously, you are making an argument that I was in the wrong here by totally making up the scenario and putting words in my post that were not there.

There was no one inside her when I flashed, there was ample opportunity for her to pull in without slowing down, all she had to do was driver her f**King car.
Whether I was speeding or not is totally irrelevant, if a car comes up behind you and there is nothing to your left (not 2kms up the road ) pull over and let them past, end of !

I just asked a question. Can you answer it ?

DubTony

Sandwlch wrote: »

I just asked a question. Can you answer it ?

Oh get off the ****ing horse !!!

Because you created a scenario in which he may have been speeding, then he has no right to moan about somebody else's driving ? That's bollox. It was pretty clear from the opening post that she just didn't bother moving over.

Irrespective of his speed, the self righteous and self important don't have the right to prevent him doing it. They do however, have the right to moan about it (it's a freedom of speech thing) ... even if they were blocking the outside lane.

bazzachazza

Sandwlch wrote: »

Of course its relevant. If someone is breaking the rules then they have no basis or credibility for legitimately complaining about someone else who may or may not have been breaking them. If they do, its just hypocritcal whinging.

Great defence try that in court sometime.

Zubeneschamali

RobAMerc wrote: »

if a car comes up behind you and there is nothing to your left (not 2kms up the road ) pull over and let them past, end of !

If a car comes up behind you and there is an empty lane to your left, you are already Doing It Rong even if you pull in.

Several times a year, an ERU Volvo passes me on the M6 at 200+ km/hr. Perfectly safe if everyone is following the rules, but how they must hate the flutes cruising at 110 in the overtaking lane!

serious3

came up behind a diesel ford c-max that was behind a campervan on the N5 yesterday evening both doing 45-50mph, now campervan man was not going to pull in the hard shoulder (never ever do!) the man in the c-max diesel stuck his nose out and thought he couldn't get past so i went passed the two of them (the joys of a 2.5l jaaaag!) anyhoo a few miles down the road i'm cruising at 65mph when i see lights in my mirror closing fairly quickly as the get closer they flashed me a few times, my first thought was its the gardai..... i pull over to the hard shoulder to let them passed and look across to see the c-max driver gesticulating wildly at me and roaring something
i let him in front and continued on my merry way. now i can't possibly have insulted his manhood any more than being made drive a diesel c-max so it must have been me having the audacity to dare to overtake!!. now before anyone gets on their high horse about speeding i will admit to being over the speed limit when passing the two vehicles but it was not a dangerous manouver nor did i cut anyone up, i was in the centre of the opposite lane with indicators in and out of the lane, oh and i had my 8yr old with me so i was "driving like a granny like you do with the kids in the car" according to the boss

glynf

You get that often with people who are trying to overtake-they're concentrating so much on an opportunity to pass they don't check their mirrors. You probably frightened him, thereby emasculating him (if the cmax has not already..), then comes the indignant rage & hissy fit.:)

RobAMerc

Sandwlch wrote: »

I just asked a question. Can you answer it ?

It is totally irrelevant - but no I wasn't ! Now try find something else in the scenario I described which will allow you apportion blame on me.

I think the real issue here is you are one of the numpties who sits in the outside lane at 120 and think you have every right to stay out there no matter what. You're pathetic argument that I was in the wrong and wrongly inferring that I was speeding proves you are trying to justify your own ineptitude at driving by defending her actions.

bazzachazza

Every time I get in the car I wish I had decided to be a Garda and worked in the traffic corps feck that I would do it for free now. People moan here about shooting fish in the barrel over speeders but it never surprises me how many people volunteer to be those fish every time they drive and not just for speeding. No sooner than you would have finished the paperwork on one driver you would be 100m down the road doing someone else.

Yesterday I had someone move out in front of me as I was going to pass them just for them to sit 200m behind the car they possibly were intending to overtake somewhere before Galway but not bother to increase their speed. They eventually moved back in a minute later after they realised they weren't going to make it before New York at that speed. It was the usual look in your mirror and jump out before this car no matter what speed they are doing scenario. I guess I should praise them for using their indicators.

OP trying to understand Irish motorists is a bit like trying to understand women.

_Kaiser_

bazzachazza wrote: »

Yesterday I had someone move out in front of me as I was going to pass them just for them to sit 200m behind the car they possibly were intending to overtake somewhere before Galway but not bother to increase their speed. They eventually moved back in a minute later after they realised they weren't going to make it before New York at that speed. It was the usual look in your mirror and jump out before this car no matter what speed they are doing scenario. I guess I should praise them for using their indicators.

That's very true.. Most Irish drivers are absolutely useless at judging the speed of a car behind them and/or pull out regardless, no doubt because "he shouldn't be speeding anyway" :rolleyes: Luckily though I can usually predict when they do it as there's a giveaway drift/wobble towards the centre line as they think about it.

But yes, the ones that do pull out and then take an age to actually pass the car they're overtaking and THEN take another age to move back in afterwards drive me crazy. If you're overtaking you should complete the overtake as quickly as possible and then move back left as soon as it's safe to do so!

visual

I like to drive with cruise control on and on long straight sections with very light traffic
I can see in the distance 3 or 4 vehicles driving below the speed limit as I approch and move in to overtaking lane one of these numpties will pull out forcing me to slow down and wait for what seems like the slowest overtaking manoeuvre in history.

Its not as if they can't see me as I drive with dip beam on all the time. Its so common that im actually surprised when it doesn't happen.

But what is really annoying is when your in left lane and someone drives in overtaking lane just off your rear quarter panel in that blind spot where their not in your rear mirror but not really visible in your side mirror for mile after mile or till your forced to brake because of a slower moving vehicle in your lane and you can't overtake with the idiot in right lane blocking
You in

_Kaiser_

visual wrote: »

I like to drive with cruise control on and on long straight sections with very light traffic
I can see in the distance 3 or 4 vehicles driving below the speed limit as I approch and move in to overtaking lane one of these numpties will pull out forcing me to slow down and wait for what seems like the slowest overtaking manoeuvre in history.

Its not as if they can't see me as I drive with dip beam on all the time. Its so common that im actually surprised when it doesn't happen.

Ah yes.. the type that will dawdle behind a 40ft truck for miles and then decide they're going to SLOWLY overtake as you approach and move out behind them

But what is really annoying is when your in left lane and someone drives in overtaking lane just off your rear quarter panel in that blind spot where their not in your rear mirror but not really visible in your side mirror for mile after mile or till your forced to brake because of a slower moving vehicle in your lane and you can't overtake with the idiot in right lane blocking you in

I usually don't let it get to that point myself. If I see a car up ahead of me and there's a guy dawdling alongside me but not actually/very slowly overtaking I will usually put the foot down and create a gap to move out in front of them in advance of approaching the car in my lane. Someone like that I rather have behind me than alongside me.

If however a car is overtaking me (rare though it usually is!) at a normal speed/rate then of course I'll let them pass before I move out.

TheZ

serious3 wrote: »

came up behind a diesel ford c-max that was behind a campervan on the N5 yesterday evening both doing 45-50mph, now campervan man was not going to pull in the hard shoulder (never ever do!) the man in the c-max diesel stuck his nose out and thought he couldn't get past so i went passed the two of them (the joys of a 2.5l jaaaag!) anyhoo a few miles down the road i'm cruising at 65mph when i see lights in my mirror closing fairly quickly as the get closer they flashed me a few times, my first thought was its the gardai..... i pull over to the hard shoulder to let them passed and look across to see the c-max driver gesticulating wildly at me and roaring something
i let him in front and continued on my merry way. now i can't possibly have insulted his manhood any more than being made drive a diesel c-max so it must have been me having the audacity to dare to overtake!!. now before anyone gets on their high horse about speeding i will admit to being over the speed limit when passing the two vehicles but it was not a dangerous manouver nor did i cut anyone up, i was in the centre of the opposite lane with indicators in and out of the lane, oh and i had my 8yr old with me so i was "driving like a granny like you do with the kids in the car" according to the boss

complete generalisation but I have noticed more than once or twice men driving people carriers driving aggressively - as if they are over compensating for something

On the other hand I also see "locals" overtake because "they know the road" and five minutes later you see their car pulled in at a shop in the next village so some Irish drivers do overtake just to overtake.

kilclon

visual wrote: »

I like to drive with cruise control on and on long straight sections with very light traffic
I can see in the distance 3 or 4 vehicles driving below the speed limit as I approch and move in to overtaking lane one of these numpties will pull out forcing me to slow down and wait for what seems like the slowest overtaking manoeuvre in history.

Or if you are in cruise control and approach a car from behind which is clearly going slower than you until the moment you change lanes and try to overtake when they speed up to match your speed. You end up with a choice of either sitting in the overtaking lane looking like the idiots you despise or speeding up to pass or slowing back down to pull back in behind.
Well, I take the same choice every time but its still annoying

Zubeneschamali

kilclon wrote: »

Or if you are in cruise control and approach a car from behind which is clearly going slower than you until the moment you change lanes and try to overtake when they speed up to match your speed.

I generally put the foot down briefly to get clear, and then drop back to my set speed.

Amazing how many drivers then accelerate, overtake, pull in and slow down to below my set speed, so that I overtake them again. Happens several times a week.

visual

kilclon wrote: »

Or if you are in cruise control and approach a car from behind which is clearly going slower than you until the moment you change lanes and try to overtake when they speed up to match your speed. You end up with a choice of either sitting in the overtaking lane looking like the idiots you despise or speeding up to pass or slowing back down to pull back in behind.
Well, I take the same choice every time but its still annoying

Yes had this too. I heard somewhere can't remember where that its a natural reflex or temptation for the car being over taken to speed up.


For some reason I find they speed up more on single lane roads and having to put foot down to complete the overtaking manoeuvre.
Following behind a car doing 80k overtake and at 100k your still stuck on wrong side of road. Foot down 120k to get past then can reduce back to speed limit and thinking to myself hope there is no speed vans around.

SpaceTime

visual wrote: »

Yes had this too. I heard somewhere can't remember where that its a natural reflex or temptation for the car being over taken to speed up.


For some reason I find they speed up more on single lane roads and having to put foot down to complete the overtaking manoeuvre.
Following behind a car doing 80k overtake and at 100k your still stuck on wrong side of road. Foot down 120k to get past then can reduce back to speed limit and thinking to myself hope there is no speed vans around.

The correct thing to do is make sure the passing driver can get back in.

Worst that ever happened to me was on a single carriageway.

Passed a guy and he accelerated as I was trying to move back in ahead of him. Couldn't get back in as he kept matching my speed and grinning!

Tried slowing, tried speeding up and he basically kept matching me.

So I accelerated extremely hard and got clear but he was completely psycho!

Not sure how I'd have gotten out of it if he'd kept it up and traffic was coming towards me.

It was just lucky my car had sufficiently powerful acceleration.

Pawwed Rig

SpaceTime wrote: »

So I accelerated extremely hard and got clear but he was completely psycho!

Not sure how I'd have gotten out of it if he'd kept it up and traffic was coming towards me.

It was just lucky my car had sufficiently powerful acceleration.

Similar thing happened to me in Kerry. Was behind a guy on a windy road for ages doing 20-25 miles an hour. It was slow for the road but there were no overtaking spots. Eventually we got to a straight and he did the same thing matching my speed as I overtook. By the time I could get ahead of him I was doing 75mph and sweating like crazy

kilclon

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Similar thing happened to me in Kerry. Was behind a guy on a windy road for ages doing 20-25 miles an hour. It was slow for the road but there were no overtaking spots. Eventually we got to a straight and he did the same thing matching my speed as I overtook. By the time I could get ahead of him I was doing 75mph and sweating like crazy

I remember a friend of mine in college telling me that his dad did this just to piss people off. That's what we're up against I'm afraid.