Being approached in the pub when you don't want to be

rainbowtrout

the_syco wrote: »

On this point; if the idiot friend decides to act the idiot, most lads will not intervene, as doing so usually automatically links them to the idiots actions, and lands them in the crossfire.

That, and sometimes his mates will end up getting more flak than the perpetrator. I'd be of the opinion that someone called him up on his bullsheesh "always get a girl with this trick" claims.

That's simply not true. If they had waded in and joined in with the 'he's only having a bit of fun, yes then they would have probably got caught in the crossfire and deservedly so if they supported that kind of behaviour, if they had just pulled him away and mumbled 'sorry about that' in passing I wouldn't have said anything.

Pug160 wrote: »

Women get that advice for rape avoidance primarily because it works, not because it sounds particularly liberating. Males have to take certain precautions just like women do, that's just a fact of life. We can shout from the rooftops that evil and bad behaviour should not be tolerated or exist, but it will always be there, just like the sun will always rise and set. So what do you do? Do you put your fingers in your ears and pretend it's not there, or do you accept it will always be there and take precautions and enjoy yourself?

This is not a woman issue, it's a human issue, and it happens in every corner of the world, even in the most liberal areas. People move out of certain areas when the demographics change. Are they being forced to do do or are they repressed? Usually, no. They're making a decision not to stay there. People who avoid very rough areas late at night? Is that repression? Could be, but it's common sense and it has been a fact of life for a very long time. Would telling criminals, rapists, murderers, and scumbags in general to stop behaving that way do any good? Absolutely not. Ironically, the only real solution would be to take away our own freedom and put Big Brother in charge. The compromises we are all currently making are relatively small compared to what the other option would be.

You can't possibly compare the actions of rapists and murderers with men who persistently harass women minding their own business. If I'm wobbling home drunk on my own at 3am on a Saturday night and choose to take short cuts through dark alleyways, while I should be able to walk the streets safely, yes there is a higher risk that something will happen to me. I know this so I don't do it. However if I'm sitting in a busy pub on a Saturday night with my friends minding my own business watching a live band, I shouldn't have to go to the quiet pub down the road where the average age of the clientele is 75 and drinking pints pints and discussing the price of weanlings at the mart to avoid being harassed. I should be able to walk to the bar and order drinks without some sleaze putting his hand up under my dress. I should be able to do this in any pub and enjoy the buzz and the atmosphere without worrying about harassment.

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Surely 5 women is not that many to approach in one night? Over 10 maybe, but certainly not 5. How many girls should a guy approach in a night if he doesn't want to appear desperate? If its under 5 then the odds of actually meeting someone are very slim.

Well if the guy is just playing a numbers game, what is he looking for?? In pubs that are not too big you can spot guys from time to time who have approached a number of women, if the place isn't too crowded, and my first thought would be 'well he's only after one thing' It doesn't look like these guys see a women and something about her catches his eye and he wants to approach her and see how he gets on, if he's just trying with one woman after another it appears that 'female with pulse' fills the criteria and most women have more self worth than that, when it's obvious he would be with any women that would say yes and he doesn't think she's interesting or stands out from the crowd. I've had guys try their luck with me and not two minutes later, try with one of my friends or vice versa. No woman wants to be with a guy that desperate that he's just working his way through a line of women until one says yes.


Or the guy who gate crashes a group of women and tries to get chatting to the group, and tries to find out which ones are single and which ones are not, and then hones in on the single ones. He's not going to have much of a chance either because again it's a case of 'anyone of you will do once you're available' Who wants to be that woman?

Daveysil15

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well if the guy is just playing a numbers game, what is he looking for?? In pubs that are not too big you can spot guys from time to time who have approached a number of women, if the place isn't too crowded, and my first thought would be 'well he's only after one thing' It doesn't look like these guys see a women and something about her catches his eye and he wants to approach her and see how he gets on, if he's just trying with one woman after another it appears that 'female with pulse' fills the criteria and most women have more self worth than that, when it's obvious he would be with any women that would say yes and he doesn't think she's interesting or stands out from the crowd. I've had guys try their luck with me and not two minutes later, try with one of my friends or vice versa. No woman wants to be with a guy that desperate that he's just working his way through a line of women until one says yes.




Or the guy who gate crashes a group of women and tries to get chatting to the group, and tries to find out which ones are single and which ones are not, and then hones in on the single ones. He's not going to have much of a chance either because again it's a case of 'anyone of you will do once you're available' Who wants to be that woman?

When you put it that way its not very appealing, but there's a difference between a guy playing the numbers game and a desperate guy who will get up on anything.

The last club I went to I approached 8 women, 2 of which reciprocated the chat and 1 of them gave me her phone number and I ended up meeting her the following week. Not a bad result I would say. But its not like approaching women was the only thing I did that night. I danced and had a laugh with my mates too. If your sole intention on a night out is to score then it may look a bit desperate. I didn't really mind one way or another - I was having a good time. The phone number was just a bonus.

rainbowtrout

Daveysil15 wrote: »

. But its not like approaching women was the only thing I did that night. I danced and had a laugh with my mates too. If your sole intention on a night out is to score then it may look a bit desperate. I didn't really mind one way or another - I was having a good time. The phone number was just a bonus.

And therein lies the difference.

Daveysil15

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And therein lies the difference.

True, but the other 6 girls just ingored me or walked away. You'll always get a few bad responses irrespective of what your intentions are or how you go about your approach. It's still a bit of a numbers game in that regard. I could have just given up after the fifth girl but I kept trying.

Catari Jaguar

Daveysil15 wrote: »

True, but the other 6 girls just ingored me or walked away. You'll always get a few bad responses irrespective of what your intentions are or how you go about your approach. It's still a bit of a numbers game in that regard. I could have just given up after the fifth girl but I kept trying.

I'm sure your phone number girl will feel really special should your relationship blossom and she discovers this. Lucky number 8. Every girl's dream.

Femme_Fatale

Process of elimination - is that not really draining and forced for the sake of a shag?

alphabeat

best tip i can give is wear a fake wedding ring if you are out chatting , and wave it or make it visible if hassled

if they persist - then its a license to tell them to fcuk off .

Mozzeltoff

alphabeat wrote: »

best tip i can give is wear a fake wedding ring if you are out chatting , and wave it or make it visible if hassled

if they persist - then its a license to tell them to fcuk off .

I wish that piece of advice would work but sometimes I reckon it draws some of them in like a beacon! I am nearly convinced some guys think of you as more of a "challenge"

worded

Surely this problem becomes less of an issue as you get older, it's not a problem forever.

Me thinks some of the women here doth protest too much.

Runs away fast awaiting back lash ......

pharmaton

worded wrote: »

Surely this problem becomes less of an issue as you get older, it's not a problem forever.

Me thinks some of the women here doth protest too much.

Runs away fast awaiting back lash ......

ah now.. I'll be running away with you in a minute.
The last time I remember this happening I was out with a female friend (and this is usually how goes it) we bump into male friend so there's three of us and we are chilling away as you do when the place starts filling up and male friend points out the line of barn dancing check shirt wearing sheep farmers who had just arrived off the bus and were queuing up against the bar holding onto their longnecks for dear life while shwayin their hips at anything that remotely resembled a women. Female friend being the eejit that she is makes eye contact and within seconds a swarm of cowboys surround her and it's like she's hit jackpot. Within five minutes she manages to tell them that she's a famous DJ from a well known radio station and she's out of town on business and just having a few beers with her researchers (that'd be us) and the boys are lapping it up, so encouraged she continues feeding them bs for half an hour.
Me and male friend just got up and left her there, didn't particularly want to be sitting in the company of a bunch of lads who were happy to be bullshíted in the vain hope of getting the ride and she had no intention of stopping. She loved every minute of it and really couldn't have given a rats arse about her other company.

Other scenarios usually involve one or other female companions making me their instant girlfriend not realising when they do that it usually only encourages men to ask more stupid questions and then I'm involved and I'm not good at being polite. I also hate being pawed.

I dunno, in groups I'm in there's generally a few men so it's never really an issue. For everything else I'm the lesbian scapegoat.

Daveysil15

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

I'm sure your phone number girl will feel really special should your relationship blossom and she discovers this. Lucky number 8. Every girl's dream.

What difference does it make what number she was? Jasus its not like I approached every woman in the place looking for a shag. If there's a connection there's a connection - simple as that. You're unlikely to find your dream girl with the first person you approach.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Process of elimination - is that not really draining and forced for the sake of a shag?

If you're only looking for a shag then maybe, but I was just chatting to people and having a good time without any real expectations. If a shag came as a result of that well that would have been great too.

I don't think approaching up to 10 women in a night is that much tbh. The club I go to holds a thousand people on 3 seperate floors, so I doubt too many people noticed how many women I approached. If you meet someone you hit it off with or who wants the same thing then who cares?

Pug160

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That's simply not true. If they had waded in and joined in with the 'he's only having a bit of fun, yes then they would have probably got caught in the crossfire and deservedly so if they supported that kind of behaviour, if they had just pulled him away and mumbled 'sorry about that' in passing I wouldn't have said anything.




You can't possibly compare the actions of rapists and murderers with men who persistently harass women minding their own business. If I'm wobbling home drunk on my own at 3am on a Saturday night and choose to take short cuts through dark alleyways, while I should be able to walk the streets safely, yes there is a higher risk that something will happen to me. I know this so I don't do it. However if I'm sitting in a busy pub on a Saturday night with my friends minding my own business watching a live band, I shouldn't have to go to the quiet pub down the road where the average age of the clientele is 75 and drinking pints pints and discussing the price of weanlings at the mart to avoid being harassed. I should be able to walk to the bar and order drinks without some sleaze putting his hand up under my dress. I should be able to do this in any pub and enjoy the buzz and the atmosphere without worrying about harassment.

But that's just it, what should happen and what does happen are two different things. The question is, can bad behaviour in pubs and clubs be eliminated entirely? If the answer to that question is no (which is very likely) then don't expect to be surprised when bad behaviour (unfortunately) does occur. Avoiding the situation is a very effective way of reducing the likelihood of it happening. But that's not victim blaming, it's just the most effective solution.

Does this mean I think this issue should be brushed under the carpet? No. I also think it should be frowned upon more than it is. And I think bars and clubs should be doing their best to clean up the clientele, which some are doing. But it will never entirely go away. It is your right to not be assaulted and for the law to be upheld, but it's not your right to expect not be pestered when you walk into a bar. That's unfortunate but it's not only limited to bars.

Another point I'd like to make before I finish is reminding everyone that bars are not the be all and end all when it comes to a decent social environment. Lots of people (more than you might imagine) hardly ever step foot in a bar or club. I've spoken to lots of people who say they are only in bars on special occasions. I'm by no means saying people shouldn't go if they enjoy it, but maybe the people who go all the time could try mixing things up a bit. A good night in a bar can be great but a bad one can be terrible. And you know that with alcohol there is always a chance that certain people will start acting silly.

I say if you truly want to change people's attitudes, try to encourage cultural changes.

Pug160

Pug160 wrote: »

But that's just it, what should happen and what does happen are two different things. The question is, can bad behaviour in pubs and clubs be eliminated entirely? If the answer to that question is no (which is very likely) then don't expect to be surprised when bad behaviour (unfortunately) does occur. Avoiding the situation is a very effective way of reducing the likelihood of it happening. But that's not victim blaming, it's just the most effective solution.

Does this mean I think this issue should be brushed under the carpet? No. I also think it should be frowned upon more than it is. And I think bars and clubs should be doing their best to clean up the clientele, which some are doing. But it will never entirely go away. It is your right to not be assaulted and for the law to be upheld, but it's not your right to expect not be pestered when you walk into a bar. That's unfortunate but it's not only limited to bars.

Another point I'd like to make before I finish is reminding everyone that bars are not the be all and end all when it comes to a decent social environment. Lots of people (more than you might imagine) hardly ever step foot in a bar or club. I've spoken to lots of people who say they are only in bars on special occasions. I'm by no means saying people shouldn't go if they enjoy it, but maybe the people who go all the time could try mixing things up a bit. A good night in a bar can be great but a bad one can be terrible. And you know that with alcohol there is always a chance that certain people will start acting silly.

I say if you truly want to change people's attitudes, try to encourage cultural changes.

Thanks for that very patronising reminder that there are more social outlets than bars. I think most of us know that.

I'm pretty sure I do have a right not to be harrassed. I find it absolutely astonishing that you suggest I don't.

From the Non-Fatal Offences against the Person Act:

Harassment.

10.—(1) Any person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, by any means including by use of the telephone, harasses another by persistently following, watching, pestering, besetting or communicating with him or her, shall be guilty of an offence.

Femme_Fatale

worded wrote: »

Surely this problem becomes less of an issue as you get older, it's not a problem forever.

And...?

Me thinks some of the women here doth protest too much.

Methinks you're just posting pointlessness for the sake of it.

old hippy

worded wrote: »

Surely this problem becomes less of an issue as you get older, it's not a problem forever.

Me thinks some of the women here doth protest too much.

Runs away fast awaiting back lash ......

I'm not sure how to process this. When you get older you suddenly become - what - not desirable? Nobody over a certain age has needs or wants?

Femme_Fatale

To be fair, being approached probably does happen less the older you get, but what's the point of that poster saying that? We're talking about now, not in the future. FFS.

Pug160

Candie wrote: »

Thanks for that very patronising reminder that there are more social outlets than bars. I think most of us know that.

I'm pretty sure I do have a right not to be harrassed. I find it absolutely astonishing that you suggest I don't.

From the Non-Fatal Offences against the Person Act:

I wasn't suggesting that. But a drunken idiot pestering someone in a bar is generally seen as something trivial and commonplace. Drunk and disorderly maybe, but that's about it. Police are very rarely called unless there's a fight or something quite serious is happening.

Police only become involved when something happens over a period of time and is of a more sinister nature. There simply wouldn't be the resources to arrest every drunken idiot who pestered someone in a bar. It's too much of a grey area anyway. It's not enforceable. I'm not saying it's right but it's too trivial. I assume you know this as it's common sense, but you were suggesting that every law is absolute which is not how it works in the real world.

Pug160

Pug160 wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting that. But a drunken idiot pestering someone in a bar is generally seen as something trivial and commonplace. Drunk and disorderly maybe, but that's about it. Police are very rarely called unless there's a fight or something quite serious is happening.

Police only become involved when something happens over a period of time and is of a more sinister nature. There simply wouldn't be the resources to arrest every drunken idiot who pestered someone in a bar. It's too much of a grey area anyway. It's not enforceable. I'm not saying it's right but it's too trivial. I assume you know this as it's common sense, but you were suggesting that every law is absolute which is not how it works in the real world.

Actually Pug, what you said was:

it's not your right to expect not be pestered

And all I did was point out that it was.

Morally and legally, whether or not you consider it trivial, or the police are having their nails done or having a nice cup of tea, or are dealing with a terrorist situation, or if it happens over one night or a lifetime, or if I go to a bar with a reputation, or a nice little tea room, or if I'm sitting on public transport while some sleaze **** with his mouth open and his tongue out (it's happened).

I have EVERY right to not be pestered.

Pug160

Candie wrote: »

Actually Pug, what you said was:



And all I did was point out that it was.

Morally and legally, whether or not you consider it trivial, or the police are having their nails done or having a nice cup of tea, or are dealing with a terrorist situation, or if it happens over one night or a lifetime, or if I go to a bar with a reputation, or a nice little tea room, or if I'm sitting on public transport while some sleaze **** with his mouth open and his tongue out (it's happened).

I have EVERY right to not be pestered.

Not in the world we live in. Maybe in a Utopia, yes. People get pestered every day but it's usually too trivial to warrant any action. Reporting the incident would only result in no action being taken anyway. So in real terms you don't really have the right (in trivial cases). Morally it's subjective. It could just be a ''laugh'' to some of these people. That's not my opinion but it's how some people think.

As I said, I don't condone the behaviour of some men and women in bars. But there are far more police worthy causes than slapping the wrists of drunken idiots.

Pug160

Pug160 wrote: »

Not in the world we live in. Maybe in a Utopia, yes. People get pestered every day but it's usually too trivial to warrant any action. Reporting the incident would only result in no action being taken anyway. So in real terms you don't really have the right (in trivial cases). Morally it's subjective. It could just be a ''laugh'' to some of these people. That's not my opinion but it's how some people think.

As I said, I don't condone the behaviour of some men and women in bars. But there are far more police worthy causes than slapping the wrists of drunken idiots.

Now a world where we would be left unharrassed is expecting Utopia and we shouldn't expect any action on harassment because it's all too trivial.

So we have to adjust our behaviour because we shouldn't expect to exercise our rights or have any action taken because harassers probably think it's just a laugh and the police have more worthy things to do.

Gotcha.

You're not doing yourself any favours here Pug.

Femme_Fatale

The "Don't blame the perpetrator, blame your attitude" guff is classic all together. Another such gem is "Don't let yourself be bullied."

Systemic Risk

Pug160 wrote: »

I don't know what every other lad has posted......

Parts of your post appear to be attacking every man who has posted here, in an attempt (I assume) to come across favorably with the women posting here. When I'm debating issues I'm not trying to make friends with anyone - male or female - I'm just contributing to a discussion. Great debates and discussions happen because there are differing views - that's the whole point. I'm typing out my opinions in a reasonably articulate (I hope) manner and I'm doing so while showing respect to others. I suggest that you do the same.

Thanks.

U say u dont know what every lad has posted yet i have attacked every lad who posted in the thread. I suggest you read over the thread as only you and maybe a couple of others suggest that women should go elsewhere if they dont want to be harassed....again notice not talking about being approached. Many agreed that while the initial approach is fine, that it would be wrong to pester a woman after she has made it clear she wants to be left alone.

Also just to adress your other assertion regarding my wanting to win favour with women who post here. I am quite secure in myself and am happy to voice my opinions whether they are popular or not. I also listen to others opinions and if reasonable i will accept if i have been mistaken. I do not need to make up false opinions on an anonymous website to make myself feel popular with the ladies. I have a beautiful longterm girlfriend who is the only lady i try to impress...and no she doesnt know my username on boards. I also have four sisters and i would be disgusted if any of these were harassed in a pub or aggressively insulted just because they spurn the advances of a man.

Anyway i am done on this thread as all valid points have been raised regarding the right of people not to be harassed, a right which you also have. If you were in a pub i was working on and someone would not leave you alone all you would have to do is have a word with me and i would ask the person politely to stop bothering you. You dont seem to accept this right so there is nothing more to say. We will have to agree to disagree.

Pug160

Systemic Risk wrote: »

U say u dont know what every lad has posted yet i have attacked every lad who posted in the thread. I suggest you read over the thread as only you and maybe a couple of others suggest that women should go elsewhere if they dont want to be harassed....again notice not talking about being approached. Many agreed that while the initial approach is fine, that it would be wrong to pester a woman after she has made it clear she wants to be left alone.

Also just to adress your other assertion regarding my wanting to win favour with women who post here. I am quite secure in myself and am happy to voice my opinions whether they are popular or not. I also listen to others opinions and if reasonable i will accept if i have been mistaken. I do not need to make up false opinions on an anonymous website to make myself feel popular with the ladies. I have a beautiful longterm girlfriend who is the only lady i try to impress...and no she doesnt know my username on boards. I also have four sisters and i would be disgusted if any of these were harassed in a pub or aggressively insulted just because they spurn the advances of a man.

Anyway i am done on this thread as all valid points have been raised regarding the right of people not to be harassed, a right which you also have. If you were in a pub i was working on and someone would not leave you alone all you would have to do is have a word with me and i would ask the person politely to stop bothering you. You dont seem to accept this right so there is nothing more to say. We will have to agree to disagree.

You were insulting people with differing views by resorting to name calling. That was the main issue I had with your post when I first read it.

I don't agree with harassing people either. The point I've been trying to get across is that there's certain things in life that are probably always going to happen, and while we should do our best to improve matters, it's probably realistic to expect that certain things might happen if you put yourself in these situations.

There's not a great deal more to say on this matter so it's probably best if some of us agree to disagree.

Daveysil15

I don't know if its been mentioned already, but getting unwanted approaches is a problem that is not exclusive to women. I've had to decline a few drunken advances from women only to be called gay or a dry shyte.

A guy getting his arse pinched or his crotch grabbed by a woman is just a bit of fun whereas a situation in the reverse would more than likely result in the guy getting thrown out. Now I'm not saying it happens as often to guys but we do have to put up with a certain amount of shyte too.

Daveysil15

Daveysil15 wrote: »

I don't know if its been mentioned already, but getting unwanted approaches is a problem that is not exclusive to women.

Where did anyone say it was? Are we not allowed to discuss problems women have in the women's forum?

Daveysil15

bluewolf wrote: »

Where did anyone say it was? Are we not allowed to discuss problems women have in the women's forum?

Of course, I was just pointing out that its not only a woman's problem.

Lucyfur

Daveysil15 wrote: »

I don't know if its been mentioned already, but getting unwanted approaches is a problem that is not exclusive to women. I've had to decline a few drunken advances from women only to be called gay or a dry shyte.

A guy getting his arse pinched or his crotch grabbed by a woman is just a bit of fun whereas a situation in the reverse would more than likely result in the guy getting thrown out. Now I'm not saying it happens as often to guys but we do have to put up with a certain amount of shyte too.

MOD

Maybe you could read through the thread?

This is tLL. Please familiarise yourself with the charter before posting again.

Daveysil15

My apologies.

becost

Yeah, it's like I always tell my friends, If a woman is interested in you, she'll give you a clear sign. I just hate it when you have no interest in her as women don't handle rejection very well.

Yellow121

Hey, I'm a man and I always get approached in the pub when I don't want to be. There I am chatting up all the ladies, one by one. They're hanging on my every word but then the bouncer comes over and throws me out.
What can I do about this unwanted attention? I think it's an anti man thing myself.