Being approached in the pub when you don't want to be

claypigeon777

I am a guy and I feel like I must have been one of the guys who must have approached you girls.
I am not a very good looking guy, I am not very confident and find it very hard to approach women but I have discovered through bitter experience that the only way to have any success at all with the opposite sex is to make as many approaches as humanly possible during a night out.
Women never approach me and I don't know any guy who has ever been approached by a woman unless he is built like a Greek God or something. If you are not conventionally handsome or you don't have a sculpted body and you make no effort to approach women guaranteed you will end up celibate unless you do something about it.
Having watched more confident friends on nights out where I acted as their wingman I am absolutely certain the majority of men even if they have some sort of plan worked out or whatever fail most of the time. The only way they can get a woman is through dogged persistence and casting their net far and wide. Every women is going to say they have a boyfriend and they are always going to be with their friends and they are always going to say they not interested.
I don't think a man has a right to be rude to a woman if she knocks him back but if you have been trying and trying and trying well what do you expect? I can't judge since I have been in that situation and went home in tears contemplating suicide because I became convinced no women would want me.
The alternative for men is to go to a prostitute and to be honest I would sooner commit suicide than do that.
I never had a girlfriend in secondary school or college because I was too shy to do anything about it.
I have only had any success at all with women after my mid 20s when I go out of my bubble and went out and made an effort.
I find that some women, only some mind, simply enjoy rejecting men and putting them down and laughing at them.
But the only way I have had a few girlfriends in the past few years is by making a nuisance of myself.
Women don't have red or green lights on their foreheads to let men know they are interest or not.
A man has only one way of finding out and that is by chancing his arm and if it blows up in his face well so be it.
If she shoots you down you take it like a man and move on to the next women but the temptation to smash your glasses into some snotty girl's face does exist. I think a lot of men become drug addicts and alcoholics or commit suicide or get into crime because they feel utterly alone and unloved. I can understand why some desperately lonely men resort to rape or murder and why some men have imprisoned women in their basements and other horror stories.
I know this makes women uncomfortable but many men have no other choice or they will end up lonely for the rest of their lives or kill themselves if they don't make unwanted approaches.
It is as it is I suppose.
I was once along ago standing by the wall of a nightclub with a pint in my hand almost on the point of tears while I was watching beautiful women dancing and acting like I was invisible, like I was a ghost. I noticed I was standing there with dozens of other guys all of them in the same position and all of them wanting to die. If I made any move at all I was told to f*ck off. I felt like I wanted to launch by beer glasses at the head of one of the women. A guy got talking to me and I noticed he was after kissing several women in a row during the night. I asked him what is secret was and he told me that there was no dignity when it comes to sex. He said he just asked girl after girl after girl and there was no other way.
I have found out that to be true.

alphamule

I think its gone on since the beginning of time so good luck changing it now!

OldNotWIse

claypigeon777 wrote: »

I am a guy and I feel like I must have been one of the guys who must have approached you girls.
I am not a very good looking guy, I am not very confident and find it very hard to approach women but I have discovered through bitter experience that the only way to have any success at all with the opposite sex is to make as many approaches as humanly possible during a night out.
Women never approach me and I don't know any guy who has ever been approached by a woman unless he is built like a Greek God or something. If you are not conventionally handsome or you don't have a sculpted body and you make no effort to approach women guaranteed you will end up celibate unless you do something about it.
Having watched more confident friends on nights out where I acted as their wingman I am absolutely certain the majority of men even if they have some sort of plan worked out or whatever fail most of the time. The only way they can get a woman is through dogged persistence and casting their net far and wide. Every women is going to say they have a boyfriend and they are always going to be with their friends and they are always going to say they not interested.
I don't think a man has a right to be rude to a woman if she knocks him back but if you have been trying and trying and trying well what do you expect? I can't judge since I have been in that situation and went home in tears contemplating suicide because I became convinced no women would want me.
The alternative for men is to go to a prostitute and to be honest I would sooner commit suicide than do that.
I never had a girlfriend in secondary school or college because I was too shy to do anything about it.
I have only had any success at all with women after my mid 20s when I go out of my bubble and went out and made an effort.
I find that some women, only some mind, simply enjoy rejecting men and putting them down and laughing at them.
But the only way I have had a few girlfriends in the past few years is by making a nuisance of myself.
Women don't have red or green lights on their foreheads to let men know they are interest or not.
A man has only one way of finding out and that is by chancing his arm and if it blows up in his face well so be it.
If she shoots you down you take it like a man and move on to the next women but the temptation to smash your glasses into some snotty girl's face does exist. I think a lot of men become drug addicts and alcoholics or commit suicide or get into crime because they feel utterly alone and unloved. I can understand why some desperately lonely men resort to rape or murder and why some men have imprisoned women in their basements and other horror stories.
I know this makes women uncomfortable but many men have no other choice or they will end up lonely for the rest of their lives or kill themselves if they don't make unwanted approaches.
It is as it is I suppose.

You sound absolutely charming. Can't wait til you cast your net my direction.

IvyTheTerrible

So now women who don't want to be pestered by men in pubs are responsible for everything from rape to suicide and alcoholism?

Jesus Christ, give me a break.

the temptation to smash your glasses into some snotty girl's face does exist

Good christ, this isn't helping anyone
You might have more success if you stop imagining raping and assaulting women and blaming them for everything in your life

Gauge

I've read a lot of shite on boards in my time here, but that's probably the first time that a post has disturbed me to the point of speechlessness.

claypigeon777

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

So now women who don't want to be pestered by men in pubs are responsible for everything from rape to suicide and alcoholism?

Jesus Christ, give me a break.

I didn't say they were to blame. Read what I said again.

What I was saying is that men who don't approach women are doomed to be on their own.

In my experience the only way most guys can get any sex or relationships or romance at all is by making countless approaches the majority of which end in total disaster.

That cruel fact of life can drive some men into a very dark place indeed.

ash23

No person can be responsible for another persons happiness. A lonely, suicidal person who can empathise with rapists and abducters will remain the same person, even if he somehow gets a girlfriend.

In fact many people who rape and abduct are personable and successful with women. Many are married with families.

The root of your problems are not down to being rejected. It's something far deeper rooted than that. Yes, some women are b!tches and belittle men who approach them but they are in the minority. As are men like yourself who think pestering someone is the only way to get lucky. How is a healthy relationship formed when you basically annoy the person into submission?

Faith

claypigeon777, your post is absolutely appalling. I don't know what to say to it, except it does sound like you could do with chatting to a professional about your issues.

claypigeon777

claypigeon777 wrote: »

I didn't say they were to blame. Read what I said again.

What I was saying is that men who don't approach women are doomed to be on their own.

Nobody said don't approach
What has been explained repeatedly is that when people have been approached, said no not interested, you leave. And don't indulge in fantasies about smashing their faces in

Honey-ec

claypigeon777 wrote: »

I am a guy and I feel like I must have been one of the guys who must have approached you girls.
I am not a very good looking guy, I am not very confident and find it very hard to approach women but I have discovered through bitter experience that the only way to have any success at all with the opposite sex is to make as many approaches as humanly possible during a night out. .

I'm not going to quote your whole post, as it's too long. But, what has been said over and over again on this thread, and which seems to be going over a lot of the male contributors' heads, is that it is not being approached that is the issue. I can't stress this enough. The issue is the inability of some men to get the message when their approach is rebuffed.

In your specific case, the only advice I can give you is to back off. There is nothing more off-putting than desperation, and a man who is making "as many approaches as humanly possible during a night out" smacks of it. No woman, unless very desperate herself, is going to be delighted to be the fifth, tenth or twentieth choice of the night.

As for your comments about understanding how some men turn to rape and imprisonment. Well, I don't really know where to go with that, other than to point out what should be blindingly obvious: sex is not a right.

OldNotWIse

claypigeon777 wrote: »

I didn't say they were to blame. Read what I said again.

What I was saying is that men who don't approach women are doomed to be on their own.

In my experience the only way most guys can get any sex or relationships or romance at all is by making countless approaches the majority of which end in total disaster.

That cruel fact of life can drive some men into a very dark place indeed.

Once was bad enough.


One of the worst things is seeing a guy blatantly approaching woman after woman.

Das Kitty

:eek:

Holy hell, claypigeon. Have you ever spoken to your GP about your suicidal and destructive thoughts?

claypigeon777

bluewolf wrote: »

Good christ, this isn't helping anyone
You might have more success if you stop imagining raping and assaulting women and blaming them for everything in your life

I'm not blaming women for everything in my life.

Nobody is entitled to have someone in their life or to be successful with the opposite sex and nobody is entitled to be happy.

A guy has to make the effort to approach women.

But being a human and human beings not always being rational, from time to time men can become extremely angry.

It's not the woman's fault at all. If she is bombarded with unwanted approaches of course she is going to tell men where to go.

I think it just is much crueler for men really. They are expected to know what to do and if they don't they can become the object of ridicule.

There was a movie a few years ago about a 40 year old virgin and everyone thought it was a laugh but it is no joke for many men who live very sad very lonely lives.

Taken to its extreme some men can go down a very dark path.

There was guy called George Sodini a few years ago who went into a gym and gunned down a few women before killing himself.

He posted a series of youtube videos describing how he had tried and tried and tried to get a woman in his life but had been completely rejected.

Not saying what he did was right but he is the extreme of the spectrum that I am talking about.

OldNotWIse

claypigeon777 wrote: »

I'm not blaming women for everything in my life.

Nobody is entitled to have someone in their life or to be successful with the opposite sex and nobody is entitled to be happy.

A guy has to make the effort to approach women.

But being a human and human beings not always being rational, from time to time men can become extremely angry.

It's not the woman's fault at all. If she is bombarded with unwanted approaches of course she is going to tell men where to go.

I think it just is much crueler for men really. They are expected to know what to do and if they don't they can become the object of ridicule.

There was a movie a few years ago about a 40 year old virgin and everyone thought it was a laugh but it is no joke for many men who live very sad very lonely lives.

Taken to its extreme some men can go down a very dark path.

There was guy called George Sodini a few years ago who went into a gym and gunned down a few women before killing himself.

He posted a series of youtube videos describing how he had tried and tried and tried to get a woman in his life but had been completely rejected.

Not saying what he did was right but he is the extreme of the spectrum that I am talking about.

No normal person will resort to gunning down other human beings because he cant get the leg over. There was obviously something else going on with him.

Mod

I'm sorry claypigeon but I can't allow you to continue posting on this thread. This is the Ladies Lounge after all so advocating violence, and giving empathy to rapists has no place here.

I suggest you talk to a medical professional about your suicidal thoughts.

Please do not post in this thread again.

kylith

Pug160 wrote: »

No one has been telling anybody to do anything. It was merely suggested that there are lots of different venues to go to if a change of scenery is desired.

No, it wasn't suggested 'if a change of scenery is desired'. It was said that if women don't like to be approached by men why don't they go to a gay bar, or to a café.

I, as a man, have no control over what some other men do.

That is correct.

It is not my responsibility any more than it is yours. If a person has reached adulthood and has etiquette problems, then I think the horse has already bolted. That's a societal problem, exacerbated by our drink culture.

I would argue that if you are with a friend who is inebriated and behaving inappropriately it is your responsibility to ensure he doesn't make a nuisance, the same as I'd make sure that a drunk female friend I was with didn't make a pest of herself to men.

You'd like us to encourage our friends to behave better towards women? I'm sure you mean well, but do you not realise how unbelievably patronising that sounds?

How exactly is it patronising to encourage people to encourage better behaviour from their friends? You talk about their mothers and fathers and society, but you completely ignore yourself: their peer group. Peer pressure, to behave well or badly, is a lot more powerful than parental or societal. Your a lot more inclined to clean your house if your mate tells you that you're living in a pigsty and they won't come round until you clean it up, than you are if your mother says the same thing. Similarly one 'John, you behaved like a dick towards those women last night, if you do it again I don't want to be associated with you' from a friend could be worth a hundred 'respect women' speeches from a parent.

That's exactly the sort of literature I've read from certain types of feminists.

Is it? I wouldn't know since I don't read feminist literature.

And it's that sort of condescending finger pointing that makes a lot of men feel alienated. Where do you think these badly behaved men come from? They grew up with mothers, sisters, aunts and other women, just as much as they grew up with male figures. If they're lacking in any way then any blame must be distributed evenly - primarily on society as a whole I would have thought.

Again, I don't see how it's condescending or finger pointing. If my friend was drunk and annoying a guy by coming on to him when he was clearly trying to talk to his friends I would steer her away, both to stop her annoying him and to stop her making a fool of herself. How is it condescending or patronising to ask men to do the same?

I'm scratching my head about some of your theories here. I have personally never advised any girl to go out with a male for protection or suggested they wear more clothes.

I never said that you did, I said that it's a short hop from the thought 'Why don't women not go to pubs if they don't want to be hassled' to 'why don't women bring their brother out to keep any harrassing men away' or 'why don't women cover their bodies if they don't want men touching them'. It places responsibility for avoiding these situations on women, rather than placing it on men to not create these situations in the first place. I have to say it does remind me of the advice women get to avoid rape - don't go there alone, don't go after dark, etc., but no-one seems to have been telling men 'Don't rape women', at least until recently.

That would be extremely patronising. Also, you're replacing suggestions made by men with the word ''should'', which in a discussion is a little bit of an underhanded tactic. No one has ever said you should do anything.

To ask why women go to pubs instead of restaurants if they don't want to be hassled is to insinuate that women should go to restaurants if they don't want to be hassled.

I might be inclined to avoid certain places myself if I just wanted a quiet night without any hassle. But I wouldn't see that as repression, I'd just see that as making a personal decision to avoid a potential situation I didn't want to be in on that particular night.

And if we want to avoid a potential situation every night - what? We don't go out? We go to a café or a restaurant? We wear a sign saying 'Not Interested'? Why should we have to stay away from pubs for the rest of our lives because of the behaviour of some people?

If your mum (or partner) turned off the television 10% of the time you watch it would your solution be to never watch television again because you want to avoid having it turned off occasionally? Wouldn't asking your mother/partner not to turn the telly off when you're watching it be a better solution?

Treating all men like naughty little schoolboys is not going to help anyone's cause. Believing that all men are the same is not going to help either. I'm fully aware that lots of women don't go out for the benefit of men. Some men also just like going out to unwind and enjoy themselves and sometimes stay within their own company.

I am well aware of that, my male friends don't hassle women in pubs. Back in our student days they did occasionally overstep their bounds because of drink and if we saw it we'd call him away. It's not difficult to do, it's not onerous, it's nothing more than keeping an eye on your friends on a night out. Women keep an eye out for their friends being cornered by men, why can't men keep an eye out for their friends pestering women?

Honey-ec wrote: »

Pug, you keep fixating on the venue, as if this only happens in one specific place and we all insist on going there anyway. The reality is, it can (and does) happen anywhere. So, I'm sorry, but no, it is not up to women to adjust our behaviour.

And I don't agree for one second that it's "patronising" to call your friends out on shitty behaviour. If one of my friends is being an arsehole to someone, I'll say it to them. Many of the changes for the better in our society came as a result of people refusing to turn a blind eye.

^^This.

claypigeon777

Deleted User wrote: »

Mod

I'm sorry claypigeon but I can't allow you to continue posting on this thread. This is the Ladies Lounge after all so advocating violence, and giving empathy to rapists has no place here.

I suggest you talk to a medical professional about your suicidal thoughts.

Please do not post in this thread again.

Where did I advocate violence? I was describing the thinking that can lead to violence. Obviously most men do not act on violent impulse but it is naive to think that men do not feel violently angry when they are rejected again and again and again. Only for our civiliZation and our modern system of law enforcement we would have a much more violent reaction I believe. A lot of hatred of women comes from repeated rejections which can psychologically scar a man and drive him down a dark path.
Being descriptive is not that same as being prescriptive.
For many lonely unattractive men what other alternative do they have but to try and approach women again and again knowing in advance that the majority of the time they will be shot down in flames.

kylith

claypigeon777 wrote: »

I didn't say they were to blame. Read what I said again.

What I was saying is that men who don't approach women are doomed to be on their own.

In my experience the only way most guys can get any sex or relationships or romance at all is by making countless approaches the majority of which end in total disaster.

That cruel fact of life can drive some men into a very dark place indeed.

I know you can't post, but you might be able to see; I would advise you to stop trying to meet women in pubs and clubs. First, try to become happier with yourself. Join a club or society and meet women in a relaxed social setting. Get to know them before you ask them out and you have a much higher chance of success. Every boyfriend I've had I met through work, through friends, in college, or in a drama group - not a pub.

Mod

Claypigeon777 banned for ignoring mod instruction.

Everyone else, please do not respond directly to claypigeon's posts as he is unable to answer/defend his position.

Thanks

jaffacakesyum

Jesus Christ...it's one thing having 99% of these type of threads derailed by a minority of men, it's another thing entirely what claypigeon is going on about. Pretty discturbing Please talk to a professional!

--Kaiser--

F**k me, this thread escalated to insanity and beyond quite quickly

the_syco

rainbowtrout wrote: »

because at the end of the day their silence on the situation lends weight to what he was doing and signals to him that 'well my friends had no issue with it so it's ok to behave like this'

On this point; if the idiot friend decides to act the idiot, most lads will not intervene, as doing so usually automatically links them to the idiots actions, and lands them in the crossfire.

That, and sometimes his mates will end up getting more flak than the perpetrator. I'd be of the opinion that someone called him up on his bullsheesh "always get a girl with this trick" claims.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

This time I turned around and belted him across the face

Although the "players" will just put it down to an unlucky gamble and move on to the next woman, hopefully this muppet will rethink his game, and stop this crap!

bluewolf wrote: »

Good christ, this isn't helping anyone
You might have more success if you stop imagining raping and assaulting women and blaming them for everything in your life

Aye. I was agreeing with his post until his fantasy crap, and then just thought; ah, he's one of those. The sort that blames others for his failings. I'm sure we'll see him posting about PUA in a while.

Honey-ec wrote: »

The issue is the inability of some men to get the message when their approach is rebuffed.

When the unsuccessful ask the successful how did they succeed, they'll be told to keep trying. Unfortunately this will be taken the wrong way by some.

Lucyfur

Mod
andariel, do not quote a banned poster.

Thanks.

Amirani

kylith wrote: »

I know you can't post, but you might be able to see; I would advise you to stop trying to meet women in pubs and clubs. First, try to become happier with yourself. Join a club or society and meet women in a relaxed social setting. Get to know them before you ask them out and you have a much higher chance of success. Every boyfriend I've had I met through work, through friends, in college, or in a drama group - not a pub.

I'd rather not continue to fuel the sidetrack that ClayPidgeon took this thread down, but for any reading and feeling somewhat similar, I'd absolutely recommend following kyliths advice. Pubs and clubs are in general pretty bad places to try meet someone.

Don't beat yourself up over not being romantically successful, but definitely don't take that anger out on girls who say no, whatever their reasons. That's never understandable or acceptable.

Systemic Risk

SpaceTime wrote: »

Women do it too

Women do exactly the same in bars too. I have noticed they tend to 'hunt in packs.'

You can be out definitely not 'on the pull' and suddenly you're the target of a whole load of bad chat up lines and attempts to flirt usually by a bunch of really drunk types.

Or, they keep interrupting your conversation with someone or try to insert themselves into the middle of it.

Also, I find there are things that women can get way with that guys would be arrested / thrown out of the bar for. Like, I've had my ass slapped, been grabbed, felt up, touched (very inappropriately) and all of that.

I'm not saying it's something that shocks/offends or upsets me, but I just think it's kind of part of how the whole human experience is sometimes and you just kind of have to be able to tell them to 'clear off' sometimes or you'd get nothing done.

....

The only thing that does annoy me though is when someone turns nasty when you brush them off.

I have been shouted abuse at and called all sorts of things because I ignored a flirting attempt in a bar.

....


Anyway, don't really want to turn this into a battle of the sexes, I just think there are some people of both genders who can't get the hint when someone's not interested.

Absolute and utter bull****. Ive worked as security in bars and clubs for a large portion of my adult life (on and off the last 11 years) and still do from time to time for a few extra bob.

I have never seen women hunt in packs, harass guys for pick ups, get aggressive when turned down. Yes it is true that girls will pinch asses or give a slap when passing which is inappropriate but the predatory behaviour is for the vast vast majority of cases carried out by men.

I read this thread when it started and as im back working security in bars ive been noticing more the behaviour discussed nd it is shameful. Now its the galway races and there are very few out for a quiet drink but it is so obvious when a group of girls are out together and dont want male attention. They are usually in a closed group around a table or somewhere slightly out of the way having conversation but there are always lads who will go in and pester them for ages. I cant understand how these lads cant see the frustrated looks between the group, notice the curt responses etc. As security i wouldnt obviously do anything unless the lad refused to leave the girls alone when asked...i have been asked by ladies many times to intervene.

Now for the lads who are saying that girls should go elsewhere if they dont like the attention i say dont be pricks. Why shouldnt girls be allowed go to popular bars which often have live bands and enjoy a night out without being pestered when they make it perfectly clear that they dont want company. Use some cop on and dont be a lecherous bollox, there are plenty of girls who are happy to be approached in the same bar....and unless you are a complete idiot you can tell the difference within a minute after approaching the group of girls.

Anyway sorry for butting in on the thread, i read a good few tll threads and i know a lot get derailed by lads butting in with stupid opinions and whatabouttery (i was guilty of this on my first visit to the lounge). I would consider myself a bit of an expert on behaviour in bars and clubs as have spent probably over a thousand nights standing and watching it and i can confirm that the behaviour discussed in the OP happens very regularly and that the lads guilty of this often persist regardless of and signals or requests to feck off.

Pug160

kylith wrote: »

No, it wasn't suggested 'if a change of scenery is desired'. It was said that if women don't like to be approached by men why don't they go to a gay bar, or to a café.
That is correct.

I would argue that if you are with a friend who is inebriated and behaving inappropriately it is your responsibility to ensure he doesn't make a nuisance, the same as I'd make sure that a drunk female friend I was with didn't make a pest of herself to men.

How exactly is it patronising to encourage people to encourage better behaviour from their friends? You talk about their mothers and fathers and society, but you completely ignore yourself: their peer group. Peer pressure, to behave well or badly, is a lot more powerful than parental or societal. Your a lot more inclined to clean your house if your mate tells you that you're living in a pigsty and they won't come round until you clean it up, than you are if your mother says the same thing. Similarly one 'John, you behaved like a dick towards those women last night, if you do it again I don't want to be associated with you' from a friend could be worth a hundred 'respect women' speeches from a parent.

Is it? I wouldn't know since I don't read feminist literature.

Again, I don't see how it's condescending or finger pointing. If my friend was drunk and annoying a guy by coming on to him when he was clearly trying to talk to his friends I would steer her away, both to stop her annoying him and to stop her making a fool of herself. How is it condescending or patronising to ask men to do the same?


I never said that you did, I said that it's a short hop from the thought 'Why don't women not go to pubs if they don't want to be hassled' to 'why don't women bring their brother out to keep any harrassing men away' or 'why don't women cover their bodies if they don't want men touching them'. It places responsibility for avoiding these situations on women, rather than placing it on men to not create these situations in the first place. I have to say it does remind me of the advice women get to avoid rape - don't go there alone, don't go after dark, etc., but no-one seems to have been telling men 'Don't rape women', at least until recently.


To ask why women go to pubs instead of restaurants if they don't want to be hassled is to insinuate that women should go to restaurants if they don't want to be hassled.


And if we want to avoid a potential situation every night - what? We don't go out? We go to a café or a restaurant? We wear a sign saying 'Not Interested'? Why should we have to stay away from pubs for the rest of our lives because of the behaviour of some people?

If your mum (or partner) turned off the television 10% of the time you watch it would your solution be to never watch television again because you want to avoid having it turned off occasionally? Wouldn't asking your mother/partner not to turn the telly off when you're watching it be a better solution?



I am well aware of that, my male friends don't hassle women in pubs. Back in our student days they did occasionally overstep their bounds because of drink and if we saw it we'd call him away. It's not difficult to do, it's not onerous, it's nothing more than keeping an eye on your friends on a night out. Women keep an eye out for their friends being cornered by men, why can't men keep an eye out for their friends pestering women?


^^This.

My posts were misunderstood. If a friend is behaving in an unacceptable manner then of course he should be told he's in the wrong. I thought the other poster was talking about lecturing friends regarding their views on women, even when it's not obvious that they behave badly towards them. That is the sort of thing I have read in the past (not on here but elsewhere) so I also misunderstood the post.

Women get that advice for rape avoidance primarily because it works, not because it sounds particularly liberating. Males have to take certain precautions just like women do, that's just a fact of life. We can shout from the rooftops that evil and bad behaviour should not be tolerated or exist, but it will always be there, just like the sun will always rise and set. So what do you do? Do you put your fingers in your ears and pretend it's not there, or do you accept it will always be there and take precautions and enjoy yourself?

This is not a woman issue, it's a human issue, and it happens in every corner of the world, even in the most liberal areas. People move out of certain areas when the demographics change. Are they being forced to do do or are they repressed? Usually, no. They're making a decision not to stay there. People who avoid very rough areas late at night? Is that repression? Could be, but it's common sense and it has been a fact of life for a very long time. Would telling criminals, rapists, murderers, and scumbags in general to stop behaving that way do any good? Absolutely not. Ironically, the only real solution would be to take away our own freedom and put Big Brother in charge. The compromises we are all currently making are relatively small compared to what the other option would be.

Pug160

Systemic Risk wrote: »

Absolute and utter bull****. Ive worked as security in bars and clubs for a large portion of my adult life (on and off the last 11 years) and still do from time to time for a few extra bob.

I have never seen women hunt in packs, harass guys for pick ups, get aggressive when turned down. Yes it is true that girls will pinch asses or give a slap when passing which is inappropriate but the predatory behaviour is for the vast vast majority of cases carried out by men.

I read this thread when it started and as im back working security in bars ive been noticing more the behaviour discussed nd it is shameful. Now its the galway races and there are very few out for a quiet drink but it is so obvious when a group of girls are out together and dont want male attention. They are usually in a closed group around a table or somewhere slightly out of the way having conversation but there are always lads who will go in and pester them for ages. I cant understand how these lads cant see the frustrated looks between the group, notice the curt responses etc. As security i wouldnt obviously do anything unless the lad refused to leave the girls alone when asked...i have been asked by ladies many times to intervene.

Now for the lads who are saying that girls should go elsewhere if they dont like the attention i say dont be pricks. Why shouldnt girls be allowed go to popular bars which often have live bands and enjoy a night out without being pestered when they make it perfectly clear that they dont want company. Use some cop on and dont be a lecherous bollox, there are plenty of girls who are happy to be approached in the same bar....and unless you are a complete idiot you can tell the difference within a minute after approaching the group of girls.

Anyway sorry for butting in on the thread, i read a good few tll threads and i know a lot get derailed by lads butting in with stupid opinions and whatabouttery (i was guilty of this on my first visit to the lounge). I would consider myself a bit of an expert on behaviour in bars and clubs as have spent probably over a thousand nights standing and watching it and i can confirm that the behaviour discussed in the OP happens very regularly and that the lads guilty of this often persist regardless of and signals or requests to feck off.

I don't know what every other lad has posted in this thread as I haven't read it all, but I'll speak for myself when I say that both men and women have a choice to do whatever they want. On a very basic level, if you want to avoid something, it's logical to stay away from it. Correct? Now does that mean I'm saying girls shouldn't go anywhere because they might get unwanted attention? No, it does not. So it's up to them to decide whether or not they'd still like to go to a particular place, even if it means they might not enjoy it. No one was saying they shouldn't be allowed to do anything. But you and I both know that this sort of thing will never go away, so if a girl were to ask me whether or not she should go to a bar where she might be harrased, I'd say she should make her own decision. I'd say that there are no guarantees in life and we are always weighing up the pros and cons of any given situation. What would you say? Would you say, go ahead, it will be great, and if anyone misbehaves they are idiots? Because there is little difference in the two responses and If you've worked security you will know that this will never entirely disappear.

Parts of your post appear to be attacking every man who has posted here, in an attempt (I assume) to come across favorably with the women posting here. When I'm debating issues I'm not trying to make friends with anyone - male or female - I'm just contributing to a discussion. Great debates and discussions happen because there are differing views - that's the whole point. I'm typing out my opinions in a reasonably articulate (I hope) manner and I'm doing so while showing respect to others. I suggest that you do the same.

Thanks.

Catari Jaguar

Pug160 wrote: »

My posts were misunderstood. If a friend is behaving in an unacceptable manner then of course he should be told he's in the wrong. I thought the other poster was talking about lecturing friends regarding their views on women, even when it's not obvious that they behave badly towards them. That is the sort of thing I have read in the past (not on here but elsewhere) so I also misunderstood the post.

Women get that advice for rape avoidance primarily because it works, not because it sounds particularly liberating. Males have to take certain precautions just like women do, that's just a fact of life. We can shout from the rooftops that evil and bad behaviour should not be tolerated or exist, but it will always be there, just like the sun will always rise and set. So what do you do? Do you put your fingers in your ears and pretend it's not there, or do you accept it will always be there and take precautions and enjoy yourself?

This is not a woman issue, it's a human issue, and it happens in every corner of the world, even in the most liberal areas. People move out of certain areas when the demographics change. Are they being forced to do do or are they repressed? Usually, no. They're making a decision not to stay there. People who avoid very rough areas late at night? Is that repression? Could be, but it's common sense and it has been a fact of life for a very long time. Would telling criminals, rapists, murderers, and scumbags in general to stop behaving that way do any good? Absolutely not. Ironically, the only real solution would be to take away our own freedom and put Big Brother in charge. The compromises we all currently making are relatively small compared to what the other option would be.

FFS Pug, been reading this and just have to say that the level of beating head against the wall is getting intolerable.

Women shouldn't HAVE to do aything or take any precaution. You are comparing sleazy, unwanted, rude, seemingly socially backwards, borderline sex pest irritants in a pub to a murderer?

How about these types walk up and be blunt, cos let's not sugar coat it (these claims of "attempting to make a convesation" reeeeally? You came to the pub to make friends? Chat to a group of lads so) and say "Ladies, anyone here interested in having sex with me later tonight? Or at least a shift?" Then the women can say, Yes or No If they say no, 99% of the time I imagine would be the case, then just piss off to the next table. This is the equivalent of what these types of men are doing but condensed to minimum interaction.

We're not talking about the genuinely charming, affable, polite, interesting, entertaining men that enhance a night out. We're talking the dudes who are after one thing, doesn't matter who from, *sure they all have vaginas*, and just won't piss off when they are being a drunken sex pest nuisance.

Daveysil15

Honey-ec wrote: »

There is nothing more off-putting than desperation, and a man who is making "as many approaches as humanly possible during a night out" smacks of it. No woman, unless very desperate herself, is going to be delighted to be the fifth, tenth or twentieth choice of the night.

Surely 5 women is not that many to approach in one night? Over 10 maybe, but certainly not 5. How many girls should a guy approach in a night if he doesn't want to appear desperate? If its under 5 then the odds of actually meeting someone are very slim.