Improvements that are needed in GAA

Dyr

nice_guy80 wrote: »

No other county can bring in a huge sponsorship package like AIG on top of all the money they get direct from HQ

Is that so?

What did Supermacs hand Galway recently, 2 million?

What are Elverys giving Mayo?

Kerry have their 1 million gift from Kerrygold on top of the sponsorship deal

No other county eh? :

Bonniedog

What money would create Brian Fenton?


Or Gooch or Shefflin or Cavanagh or Canning.

These chaps and their teams come around once in a generation, We are just lucky to have the footballers we have and a fkn genius running it, Same as Dwyer, Boylan, Cody, Harte, Nothing to do with money.

fly_agaric

BarryD2 wrote: »

Without wishing to prolong the discussion, it was to address precisely this problem of growth, that Dublin County and Corporation were split into 4 local authorities a number of years ago.

totally off topic, but I find it hard to resist delurking & making a comment when I spot this coming up. IMO, Dail politicians split the county in 4 to "hobble" local government there as it was a potential threat to their power-base; not to improve its workings. It did not stop Dublin growing, but it did make it much harder to effectively organise services for people like transport, housing, water & waste management etc that need more of a Dublin region approach.
The poor coordination meant that politicians then ended up having to set up more quangos like NTA to do the jobs the split up Dublin local authorities cannot do!

Splitting a thing by force is done to undermine/weaken/damage it (or to destroy in cases of real malice), so I can see why Dublin gaa supporters might not be enthusiastic!

Amprodude

Use a different colour ball in both sports.

StupidLikeAFox

Bonniedog wrote: »

What money would create Brian Fenton?


Or Gooch or Shefflin or Cavanagh or Canning.

These chaps and their teams come around once in a generation, We are just lucky to have the footballers we have and a fkn genius running it, Same as Dwyer, Boylan, Cody, Harte, Nothing to do with money.

It's a bit of a stretch to say it's nothing to do with the money. It's not just the money but funding is certainly a factor

martingriff

TrueGael wrote: »

Just read the first sentence in each

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%BAn_Laoghaire%E2%80%93Rathdown

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Dublin

So there you have it 3 county councils and a populous city on top , that is what what everyone is competing against

4 heavily populated counties combined into 1 with all players living within a stones throw of training (No 3/4 hours trek across the country for 8/9 months of the year)

backed by reams of massive companies and most important the GAA itself the supposed custodian of the game nationally

Wikipedia where anyone can right anything. The 3 are not counties and this is from a cut her has dealings with them everyday. As another poster has said the only reason they were set up was for vote getters for politicians and more jobs for the boys

largepants

Bonniedog wrote: »

What money would create Brian Fenton?


Or Gooch or Shefflin or Cavanagh or Canning.

These chaps and their teams come around once in a generation, We are just lucky to have the footballers we have and a fkn genius running it, Same as Dwyer, Boylan, Cody, Harte, Nothing to do with money.

You need to be pulled up on this.

You keep mentioning this once in a generation team. Simply not true.

Compare the Dublin team in AI team of 2011 and last years AI team. Might be 2/3 players the same. So to suggest it's a once in a generation team in rubbish.

BarryD2

Another way of looking at the county imbalance issue is to look at the areas of equivalence used for EU elections. Prior to 2014, there were just four: Munster, Leinster, Connacht/Ulster and Dublin. Just look at the map:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/new-european-parliament-constituencies-have-wonderland-logic-1.1775716

Those were the rough equivalences in terms of population. Obviously this excludes the Six Counties, so you could add a fifth there. Sure you can argue that these are created to maximise seats etc etc. but that's only a small influence. They do reflect an underlying obvious reality.

Clearly it'd be ridiculous to have a four/ five 'county' AI structure made up of above but that's the logic of population. Maybe rather than go to this extreme though, the GAA could look at merging some counties in the same way as club/ parish teams will merge? Over my dead body is I suspect the answer to that, but maybe it will eventually be over the dead body of Gaelic games in some counties/ regions?

BarryD2

martingriff wrote: »

So there is 29 counties in the Rep of Ireland?????

Nah, there's 32 counties in Ireland But I can never quite figure out why people get so hung up on a local administration structure that was largely devised by the Brits!

CatInABox

I think splitting Dublin into two will create more problem than it will solve. It creates a horrible precedent, one that I think would have massive unintended consequences.

What are the aims of splitting the county?
How will the success of splitting the county be measured?
What happens if neither team are successful afterwards and the number of people participating plummets?
What happens if another team becomes dominant?
Kerry or another team could conceivable come back and dominate for a number of years, should they be split too?
What measurement is used to say that a team is too successful?

All in all, splitting a county, any county is a non-runner, it'd cause far more problems than it'd solve.

Personally, I'd like to see a drastic change to the league, provincial championships, and all Ireland championship. The situation as it is has resulted in some teams targeting different cups, meaning that they become meaningless. Mayo clearly doesn't care about the league, and you could make the case that they don't really care about the provincial championship. All their training seems primed so that they peak for the late stages of the All Ireland. Same with Kerry, they've won Munster so often that they clearly don't care about it. The league is an afterthought for them. Leinster isn't even a training regime for Dublin anymore, it's clear the players aren't playing against the teams, they're playing against the guys on the bench trying to take their starting spot. Ulster is the only provincial championship where competition forces teams to compete at full pace.

I'd combine the league, provincials, and All Ireland into one competition. Have four groups like the league, the top three teams in each group going on to contest the "All Ireland". The groups should be seeded from the performance of the last year, with no restriction based on province, that way, every group has the same chance, with no ultra competitive group like Ulster, and no walkovers like Leinster. All the games will be meaningful for all the teams, with no one able to hold themselves for later in the year.

By combining them all, it'll free up more of the year for club games, so that the club season could be finished before the county season starts, Players won't be taken from their clubs for large stretches, or club games relegated to the depths of winter.

ThunbergsAreGo

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Exactly, Dublins dominance cannot explain the absolute collapse of Kildare and Meath

Kildare have almost 4 times the population of Monaghan (who should and are admired) and have consistently regressed

Meath is has seen a large growth in population and have never been as consistently bad in my memory

If it was population only, why arent these doing better?

martingriff

BarryD2 wrote: »

Nah, there's 32 counties in Ireland But I can never quite figure out why people get so hung up on a local administration structure that was largely devised by the Brits!

There is 26 counties in the Republic of Ireland as my post says and that is true. But you are actually correct in GAA terms for the all Ireland there are 32. I was dealing with his point of Dublin been 3 different counties

ProudDUB

BarryD2 wrote: »

Nah, there's 32 counties in Ireland But I can never quite figure out why people get so hung up on a local administration structure that was largely devised by the Brits!

Kilkenny hurler is handed a jersey for Curragh North & told "Get over it. Boundaries have been redrawn. You're from Curragh North now. Don't want to hear any bitching. Sure why get so hung up on a local administration structure, that was largely devised by the Brits?"

How is that going to go down?

Kerry footballer is handed a jersey for Skelligs South. Coach says "Enough of yer aul guff now. Kerry as a county doesn't exist any more. What's your problem, sure isn't all that "county" shyte just an outdated form of British bureaucracy?"

How is that going to go?

Cork camogie player is told she now plays for South Tipperary Riding, as boundaries have been redrawn & Kanturk isn't in Cork any more. In fact none of Cork is in Cork anymore, as the county of Cork doesn't exist at all now. "Get over it & stop being so hung up on what the Brits did" - she is told.

How will that convo go?

So g'wan.... enlighten us with your views on how silly it is to be so hung up on our sense of belonging to our home place, our home city/town and our home county?

I'm all ears.

largepants

naughtb4 wrote: »

Exactly, Dublins dominance cannot explain the absolute collapse of Kildare and Meath

Kildare have almost 4 times the population of Monaghan (who should and are admired) and have consistently regressed

Meath is has seen a large growth in population and have never been as consistently bad in my memory

If it was population only, why arent these doing better?

Lets be honest here now. Kildare and Meaths only chance of silverware is a Leinster Championship. That has now become a cakewalk.

Would you bother your arse dedicating your life to GAA for that? I wouldn't be encouraging any of my young lads to get involved at such a level.

largepants

ProudDUB wrote: »

Kilkenny hurler is handed a jersey for Curragh North & told "Get over it. Boundaries have been redrawn. You're from Curragh North now. Don't want to hear any bitching. Sure why get so hung up on a local administration structure, that was largely devised by the Brits?"

How is that going to go down?

Kerry footballer is handed a jersey for Skelligs South. Coach says "Enough of yer aul guff now. Kerry as a county doesn't exist any more. What's your problem, sure isn't all that "county" shyte just an outdated form of British bureaucracy?"

How is that going to go?

Cork camogie player is told she now plays for South Tipperary Riding, as boundaries have been redrawn & Kanturk isn't in Cork any more. In fact none of Cork is in Cork anymore, as the county of Cork doesn't exist at all now. "Get over it & stop being so hung up on what the Brits did" - she is told.

How will that convo go?

So g'wan.... enlighten us with your views on how silly it is to be so hung up on our sense of belonging to our home place, our home city/town and our home county?

I'm all ears.

The GAA invests around 27 times more per player in Dublin than they do in Donegal.

Sorry Donegal lads but you got to get over it because that's all there is.

C__MC

Its all really if buts and when

The History of the GAA has seen meath and kildare have 1 or 2 golden periods

ProudDUB

largepants wrote: »

The GAA invests around 27 times more per player in Dublin than they do in Donegal.

Sorry Donegal lads but you got to get over it because that's all there is.

What Donegal lads are we talking about?

The ones who would have 2 All Ireland medals in their arse pockets, but for Paddy Durcan's unfortunate faux pas? Or some other lot?

Pixel Eater

I think most people agree that the Championship structure needs to change in both codes but especially football. The Super 8s is a good start but it's typical GAA tinkering around the edges rather than going for the jugular straight away. You can keep the Provincial Championships but just run then as separate competitions from the main championship, just like the various 'cup' competitions in soccer.

Ah for hurling; I've said this before but the sliotar simply needs to be heavier. It's far too light for the modern game as players are far stronger and more conditioned now and can hit points from their own half's regularly. Sure didn't the Kilkenny keeper score a point from hos own D recently. And while they're at it make 65's either indirect or as a sideline cut from the corner.

ThunbergsAreGo

largepants wrote: »

Lets be honest here now. Kildare and Meaths only chance of silverware is a Leinster Championship. That has now become a cakewalk.

Would you bother your arse dedicating your life to GAA for that? I wouldn't be encouraging any of my young lads to get involved at such a level.

So we should only had 4 teams in the country?

Sure why would Carlow? Its that exact attitude that needs changing and is the reason for these counties struggling

There has always been a gap between the top teams and others in football (and in hurling)

ThunbergsAreGo

largepants wrote: »

You need to be pulled up on this.

You keep mentioning this once in a generation team. Simply not true.

Compare the Dublin team in AI team of 2011 and last years AI team. Might be 2/3 players the same. So to suggest it's a once in a generation team in rubbish.

Its exactly like you say, they are different teams.

I dont think winning an AI (or even two) as alot of that team did makes it once in a generation.

I think the current team has the potential to be (winning streak, back to backs etc.)

blinding

Dublin could run off their Club Championship as the All Dublin Championship
and the rest of the Country could run the Nearly All Ireland Championship .

The Top four from each conference could then do a Champion league group of Four Round robin championship with the top Two Playing for the All- Ireland championship .

largepants

naughtb4 wrote: »

Its exactly like you say, they are different teams.

I dont think winning an AI (or even two) as alot of that team did makes it once in a generation.

I think the current team has the potential to be (winning streak, back to backs etc.)

Its not once in a generation though. A generation is maybe 25 years. This is a conveyor belt of talent being produced. The team has more or less completely changed in 6 years.

Is the correlation between this and the funding just a coincidence?

largepants

ProudDUB wrote: »

What Donegal lads are we talking about?

The ones who would have 2 All Ireland medals in their arse pockets, but for Paddy Durcan's unfortunate faux pas? Or some other lot?

Not sure what your point is.

Why should Dublin get circa 27 times more per player than Donegal?

wirehairmax

From first hand experience, the GAA compensation/insurance fund needs to be reviewed. I know its not actually an insurance cover but with the cost of serious operations on the increase the level of cover needs to be increased in line with that. My cruciate operation is approx 6.5k but the max from the GAA is 4.5k. Add is physio, consultants and scans and its going to be well over 7k by the time its done. Not to mention time off work.
They say to have personal accident insurance also but there are many out there who just wouldnt and nobody should be out of pocket having paid to be members of the association. I would call for a review but its unlikely to happen.

Treepole

wirehairmax wrote: »

From first hand experience, the GAA compensation/insurance fund needs to be reviewed. I know its not actually an insurance cover but with the cost of serious operations on the increase the level of cover needs to be increased in line with that. My cruciate operation is approx 6.5k but the max from the GAA is 4.5k. Add is physio, consultants and scans and its going to be well over 7k by the time its done. Not to mention time off work.
They say to have personal accident insurance also but there are many out there who just wouldnt and nobody should be out of pocket having paid to be members of the association. I would call for a review but its unlikely to happen.

Anyone playing sport regularly would be nuts not to have some form of private health insurance in place.

munchkin_utd

wirehairmax wrote: »

From first hand experience, the GAA compensation/insurance fund needs to be reviewed. I know its not actually an insurance cover but with the cost of serious operations on the increase the level of cover needs to be increased in line with that. My cruciate operation is approx 6.5k but the max from the GAA is 4.5k. .

there would be no problem to increase the benefits, but then you'd have to increase the contributions accordingly to cover the increased outgoings which clubs would find an issue, and with some clubs having dozens of teams that extra cost would add up to a significant sum that they need to find

largepants

Treepole wrote: »

Anyone playing sport regularly would be nuts not to have some form of private health insurance in place.

Even at juvenile levels?

Joe Dog

Separation of the club and county games from Minor upwards.

If you want to play inter county football you play that and only that, if you want to play for your club you play for your club and only your club.

Solves pretty much the major issue affecting the GAA.

The GAA essentially has tried to fix the issue by doing almost nothing , just accept that a big step needs to be made and separate club and county and everyone wins and

Club football and hurling is about playing the county so I don't care if clubs whine they lose players just accept it and enjoy the games.

Make our games mainly run on a league based system and that being the main competition with games being provided every week of the season.

The Lost Sheep

Joe Dog wrote: »

Separation of the club and county games from Minor upwards.

If you want to play inter county football you play that and only that, if you want to play for your club you play for your club and only your club.

Solves pretty much the major issue affecting the GAA.

The GAA essentially has tried to fix the issue by doing almost nothing, just accept that a big step needs to be made and separate club and county and everyone wins and

Club football and hurling is about playing the county so I don't care if clubs whine they lose players just accept it and enjoy the games.

Make our games mainly run on a league based system and that being the main competition with games being provided every week of the season.

That would be bonkers. Whatever about the top level in senior in each county but from minor upwards?? That would be a waste of time.
Its only 2 teams. First team within your club and then the county side and that only affects a small number of players overall.
Completely separating club from county isnt fixing anything. There isnt enough games to do it for counties

BarryD2

CatInABox wrote: »

All in all, splitting a county, any county is a non-runner, it'd cause far more problems than it'd solve.

OK, so how about amalgamating counties? Is that equally taboo?

Or is the GAA bound to the idea of counties as drawn up a few hundred years ago, regardless of the consequences?

You simply cannot ignore basic geography and population shifts.

Look at it a different way again. If Gaelic games ever do become professional teams, you'd have to see many county teams just shutting up shop. There's a problem there and it's as if people can't or won't see it.

Joe Dog

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That would be bonkers. Whatever about the top level in senior in each county but from minor upwards?? That would be a waste of time.
Its only 2 teams. First team within your club and then the county side and that only affects a small number of players overall.
Completely separating club from county isnt fixing anything. There isnt enough games to do it for counties

Something drastic needs to be done.The club fixtures issue has dragged on for far too long.

If you get called up for the county team at the start of the year you have to decide do you want to only play for your county or not.If they want to send you back to play with your clubs for matches for practice fine but you are essentially only a county player and if the county manager wants you must play with them.

The Lost Sheep

Joe Dog wrote: »

Something drastic needs to be done.The club fixtures issue has dragged on for far too long.

If you get called up for the county team at the start of the year you have to decide do you want to only play for your county or not.If they want to send you back to play with your clubs for matches for practice fine but you are essentially only a county player and if the county manager wants you must play with them.

That doesnt need to happen. Yes the club v county issue has dragged on but simply splitting the 2 and having no intersection isnt the answer and its primarily dragged on because nobody has suggested a proper solution. There isnt enough games for players to only play for just the county sides.
You would need to contract players to counties then.

MayoAreMagic

CatInABox wrote: »

What are the aims of splitting the county?
How will the success of splitting the county be measured?
What happens if neither team are successful afterwards and the number of people participating plummets?
What happens if another team becomes dominant?
Kerry or another team could conceivable come back and dominate for a number of years, should they be split too?
What measurement is used to say that a team is too successful?

The aim of splitting a county would be to keep the flagship competition, that is generally the only thing we have in shop window, competitive and also fair, both for the good of the competition itself and those playing it, and indeed maximising the potential of the game as a product. For the same reason the EPL creates far more interest and is a far better league than the SPL - there is more teams capable of beating each other, thus the thing is more entertaining and also more competitive for those involved.
Imagine if we could even have 8-10 teams of a similar level, all the interest those clashes would generate. How much money could we get from television deals in that scenario? BT sport, SKY, they would all want it if they had 10 odd games like the all Ireland final last year. The money involved there would make the AIG deal look like small potatoes, which would benefit every county massively. But we wont get a sniff of it if over the next 20 years Dublin win 16 odd all Irelands and get tested in one game each year. That just isn't a viable product, not to mention, the players from other counties will just leave for the summer, or worse play other games instead. Nothing turns players off more than unfairness. Their interest will drop and they will do other things - quite understandably in fairness - with the knock on effect being that the sport suffers.

The success would be measured on the quality of teams that would be immediately available to those two new teams and their ability to match the competitiveness of their peers. Have you seen the quality of the potential northside team? Id say they win an all Ireland in 3 years. While the southside team are well good enough to meet them in the final. They have 2 squads already fit to take on the best of teams out there as it stands. If they couldn't be some ways successful from that point then it isn't the fault of the split.

If neither team were successful and the interest plummets then they do the same as they did in Dublin when that was happening previously, and the same as they are attempting to do in Antrim now - promote the game. If people point blank refuse to support their team then that is unfortunate, but the flipside of that is you cant not do what is right for fear of upsetting one minority. The cork footballers don't get much support either yet they get on with it. Why would it be different for Dublin north or south?
Re being successful, well they have the same tools as everyone else to be successful. In fact, they would still have 650,000 odd people each, that is still 5 times the population of mayo for example. It would still be within their own grasp to be successful relative to their competitors and that is the all important point.

If another team became dominant they wouldn't be doing so from a base so advanced from everyone else that nobody could match them. The natural balance would suggest that another team would eclipse them at some point. That isn't the case with Dublin in their current guise.

Again, like above, Kerry aren't starting from an advantaged position. They have an average population. If they were to dominate it would be down to making more from the same level of resources. Another county could copy what they do and match them. But how could anyone match what Dublin do? Draft in 1 million people and invest another 15 million that they don't have? It isn't physically possible.

MayoAreMagic

BarryD2 wrote: »

OK, so how about amalgamating counties? Is that equally taboo?

Or is the GAA bound to the idea of counties as drawn up a few hundred years ago, regardless of the consequences?

You simply cannot ignore basic geography and population shifts.

Look at it a different way again. If Gaelic games ever do become professional teams, you'd have to see many county teams just shutting up shop. There's a problem there and it's as if people can't or won't see it.

Personally I think the answer is a bit of both. Split teams that can feasibly be split and offer the amalgamation option to lowly populated counties. These changes could be implemented overnight and would revolutionise the game.

If that was done, instantly, your super 8s stop being a second chance for the strongest counties and become what they were intended to be. It has a positive knock on effect on everything.

The Lost Sheep

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

The aim of splitting a county would be to keep the flagship competition, that is generally the only thing we have in shop window, competitive and also fair, both for the good of the competition itself and those playing it, and indeed maximising the potential of the game as a product. For the same reason the EPL creates far more interest and is a far better league than the SPL - there is more teams capable of beating each other, thus the thing is more entertaining and also more competitive for those involved.

But you cant compare competitions with such open movement of players to inter county GAA.
Should we say the same about hurling considering Kilkennys dominance. They were always third of the big 3 but are now completely clear of the other 2 and nearly have more titles than all the rest(bar Tipp/Cork) combined.
Splitting Dublin isnt fair to the dubs and there isnt anything to say that it will maximise the potential of the game as a product. What happens if both Dublin sides continue to dominate Leinster and then the all ireland series? Who does that benefit?

Imagine if we could even have 8-10 teams of a similar level, all the interest those clashes would generate. How much money could we get from television deals in that scenario? BT sport, SKY, they would all want it if they had 10 odd games like the all Ireland final last year. The money involved there would make the AIG deal look like small potatoes, which would benefit every county massively. But we wont get a sniff of it if over the next 20 years Dublin win 16 odd all Irelands and get tested in one game each year. That just isn't a viable product, not to mention, the players from other counties will just leave for the summer, or worse play other games instead. Nothing turns players off more than unfairness. Their interest will drop and they will do other things - quite understandably in fairness - with the knock on effect being that the sport suffers.

What chances are there that we should have 8-10 teams at a similar level?
There isnt anything unfair about a county utilising its own resources to its fullest. Is there?
Many counties in North dont/wont ever get mass participation from the unionist community is that fair?
Dublin will win more all irelands in next few years but never will dominate to that extent. Changes are needed to the system in terms of season structure but what you propose isnt an improvement.

MayoAreMagic

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But you cant compare competitions with such open movement of players to inter county GAA.
Should we say the same about hurling considering Kilkennys dominance. They were always third of the big 3 but are now completely clear of the other 2 and nearly have more titles than all the rest(bar Tipp/Cork) combined.
Splitting Dublin isnt fair to the dubs and there isnt anything to say that it will maximise the potential of the game as a product. What happens if both Dublin sides continue to dominate Leinster and then the all ireland series? Who does that benefit?

Well no because Kilkenny aren't doing anything that the majority of other counties couldn't repeat in the morning. They have chosen to forego football. We could all make that choice. There are downsides and upsides to that and that is the cost of it. As I already explained, that isn't the case with Dublin. Nobody can pull 15 million euros and 1 million people out of the sky. For that reason you arent comparing like with like.
I disagree that it is unfair on the dubs. Both teams would still be among the most densely populated and highest funded of all teams out there. Surely if you consider that unfair, then you must consider the current situation where literally nobody else comes near to having what Dublin have, as a complete travesty of unfairness altogether? Yet your idea is people just grin and bear it?

If they both continue to dominate then more power to them, but the advantages side of things would have been mitigated from the scenario, to at least a more reasonable level anyway. Furthermore, if they continued to dominate, then the question I would ask would be how bad a situation would it have been if they had been left as one team? 45 of the next 50 all irelands? At least if there was two different winners in that period there would be some level of good games between the two of them, would there not? It would still have been the right move in that scenario.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What chances are there that we should have 8-10 teams at a similar level?
There isnt anything unfair about a county utilising its own resources to its fullest. Is there?
Many counties in North dont/wont ever get mass participation from the unionist community is that fair?
Dublin will win more all irelands in next few years but never will dominate to that extent. Changes are needed to the system in terms of season structure but what you propose isnt an improvement.

Very high actually. There is 8 teams in D1, then an extra Dublin team. There is always a team or two that get a bounce from doing well in D2 come championship time also. Then there are teams who can put it up to the top teams that aren't Dublin as things are. If you look at mayo's run in the qualifiers over the last two years for example, plenty teams were able to push them hard. Their run in the qualifiers last year was highly entertaining. Would two Dublin teams be of a similar level to that? Could we have numerous teams having runs like that? I think so. Genuinely, as a mayo fan that run last year was brilliant to be following. Extra time, draws, near losses, they made the thing. What if there was no Dublin and mayo won the thing last year - wouldn't the teams that nearly beat them get a bounce from that the following year? You can see galway got a real bounce from beating mayo the last few years, you can see Roscommon got a bounce from beating galway. The result is the Connacht championship now has the most teams in D1. You know what would deflate those bounces, not to mention every gaa neutral onlooker? If they meet Dublin in CP and they turn around and beat the sh*te out of them. I accept that isn't Dublin's fault, but you know, it is even less Galway or Roscommon etc's fault either. The reality is letting it go on the way it is, is sporting suicide. Something has to change, and that is in fact the best option for all concerned - Dublin included.

I say Dublin included, because the other option is to share out Dublin's money to other counties. But that would mean youngsters in Dublin are starved of gaa development to the point that they come back down in level to make a game of it with those behind them. Our goal should be that every youngster gets the chance to develop to the maximum of their potential. If we do that then fitting the county game around it is easy, because we have a glut of young talented players to work with and far more of them would have a realistic expectation of winning an all ireland. So although you might have two Dublin teams, you would have two high quality teams competing against several other teams of a similar level, which to anyone interested in the sport and not exclusively their own team, would be a good thing

BonnieSituation

The second the county gets split isn't he second that the core support goes.

I'd never darken another game if it were to happen.

Anyway...

Other improvements for the GAA anyway?

The Lost Sheep

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well no because Kilkenny aren't doing anything that the majority of other counties couldn't repeat in the morning. They have chosen to forego football. We could all make that choice. There are downsides and upsides to that and that is the cost of it. As I already explained, that isn't the case with Dublin. Nobody can pull 15 million euros and 1 million people out of the sky. For that reason you arent comparing like with like.
I disagree that it is unfair on the dubs. Both teams would still be among the most densely populated and highest funded of all teams out there. Surely if you consider that unfair, then you must consider the current situation where literally nobody else comes near to having what Dublin have, as a complete travesty of unfairness altogether? Yet your idea is people just grin and bear it?

Are you sure Kilkenny are doing things that most counties couldnt repeat? If it was that easy then how come no county has really dominated Hurling as much as them.
There will always be teams with more people following them/in their area. You cant change that. It is very unfair on the dubs. They are being penalised because of a natural occurance.
Im not saying people grin and bear it. Im saying people look inside at their own faults and their own resources and not simply whine about the big bully....

Very high actually. There is 8 teams in D1, then an extra Dublin team. There is always a team or two that get a bounce from doing well in D2 come championship time also. Then there are teams who can put it up to the top teams that aren't Dublin as things are. If you look at mayo's run in the qualifiers over the last two years for example, plenty teams were able to push them hard. Their run in the qualifiers last year was highly entertaining. Would two Dublin teams be of a similar level to that? Could we have numerous teams having runs like that? I think so. Genuinely, as a mayo fan that run last year was brilliant to be following. Extra time, draws, near losses, they made the thing. What if there was no Dublin and mayo won the thing last year - wouldn't the teams that nearly beat them get a bounce from that the following year? You can see galway got a real bounce from beating mayo the last few years, you can see Roscommon got a bounce from beating galway. The result is the Connacht championship now has the most teams in D1. You know what would deflate those bounces, not to mention every gaa neutral onlooker? If they meet Dublin in CP and they turn around and beat the sh*te out of them. I accept that isn't Dublin's fault, but you know, it is even less Galway or Roscommon etc's fault either. The reality is letting it go on the way it is, is sporting suicide. Something has to change, and that is in fact the best option for all concerned - Dublin included.

Very convenient to just use size of Division 1. When there is always multiple sides uncompetitive in league and splitting Dublin doesnt help the majority of counties. So why change it?

I say Dublin included, because the other option is to share out Dublin's money to other counties. But that would mean youngsters in Dublin are starved of gaa development to the point that they come back down in level to make a game of it with those behind them. Our goal should be that every youngster gets the chance to develop to the maximum of their potential. If we do that then fitting the county game around it is easy, because we have a glut of young talented players to work with and far more of them would have a realistic expectation of winning an all ireland. So although you might have two Dublin teams, you would have two high quality teams competing against several other teams of a similar level, which to anyone interested in the sport and not exclusively their own team, would be a good thing

No the youngsters in Dublin will simply quit the sport and as theyre in a city and the capital/largest city at that they will have far far more alternative activities than kids elsewhere in the country so are more likely to be lost from the GAA for good and who does that beenfit.

MayoAreMagic

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The second the county gets split isn't he second that the core support goes.

I'd never darken another game if it were to happen.

Anyway...

Other improvements for the GAA anyway?

Some probably go away for a time, then come back. A small number might stay away altogether. Personally, if that were my own county in that position, I wouldn't consider anyone who would do that 'core support' anyway.

The reality is the good of the game has to come first, before Mayo fans or Dublin fans or anyone else. In 20 years I have no doubt people would look back on one of the best periods of football that has ever been and asked why we didn't do it 20 years earlier.

MayoAreMagic

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Are you sure Kilkenny are doing things that most counties couldnt repeat? If it was that easy then how come no county has really dominated Hurling as much as them.
There will always be teams with more people following them/in their area. You cant change that. It is very unfair on the dubs. They are being penalised because of a natural occurance.
Im not saying people grin and bear it. Im saying people look inside at their own faults and their own resources and not simply whine about the big bully....

This has all, already been addressed.
The average county have one tenth of their resources - 130,000 people. It is the equivalent of putting a lightweight boxer into the heavyweight division and telling him to look inside for his own faults when he cant win.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Very convenient to just use size of Division 1. When there is always multiple sides uncompetitive in league and splitting Dublin doesnt help the majority of counties. So why change it?

Do you not see that teams choose not to be competitive in the league, because they aren't physically capable of doing both to the level required? Donegal got relegated and cavan got promoted, yet who won the game between the two?
I don't see how the figure is convenient, it is just accurate. So if it convenient because it is right, then fair enough.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

No the youngsters in Dublin will simply quit the sport and as theyre in a city and the capital/largest city at that they will have far far more alternative activities than kids elsewhere in the country so are more likely to be lost from the GAA for good and who does that beenfit.

But they would be getting the same level of investment as they are now. Why would they quit? They might quit if the funding was reduced, which is exactly my point as to why this is the best option.
If you are saying they would quit simply because their county team isn't winning every game by a cricket score any more, then Id suggest you underestimate the youth of your county. Young lads that turn into the likes of McCarthy, Cooper, Rock etc didn't quit when they weren't going great in the 00s. They would in fact have twice the opportunity to play intercounty football as they have currently, another positive for the youth of the county.

CatInABox

BarryD2 wrote: »

OK, so how about amalgamating counties? Is that equally taboo?

Or is the GAA bound to the idea of counties as drawn up a few hundred years ago, regardless of the consequences?

You simply cannot ignore basic geography and population shifts.

Look at it a different way again. If Gaelic games ever do become professional teams, you'd have to see many county teams just shutting up shop. There's a problem there and it's as if people can't or won't see it.

I wouldn't be in favour of combining counties either, but primarily this is down to the fact that the GAA is based upon local identity. I'd doubt that there'd be many Sligo people that would be thrilled to play for a "SligoLeitrim" team, it just wouldn't be the same.

I do agree with you that the day that the GAA goes professional is the day that some counties just stop playing. It's one of the reasons I'd be against professionalisation, to be honest.

MayoAreMagic

CatInABox wrote: »

I wouldn't be in favour of combining counties either, but primarily this is down to the fact that the GAA is based upon local identity. I'd doubt that there'd be many Sligo people that would be thrilled to play for a "SligoLeitrim" team, it just wouldn't be the same.

I do agree with you that the day that the GAA goes professional is the day that some counties just stop playing. It's one of the reasons I'd be against professionalisation, to be honest.

They have no problem with it in the county championship in Kerry... It was in Mayo for a while too but it fell away, more so because there was just too many games involved.
A few wins over big opposition does wonders on the parochialism front.
If smaller counties weren't in favour then they could be allowed to soldier on, as they wouldn't really be affecting anyone else. I wonder if they seen another amalgamation going well would they change their minds though?

CatInABox

Splitting Dublin is all pie in the sky stuff, to be honest. You can complain about fairness and what not, but at the end of the day, you'd have to convince the Dublin board themselves to do it, it couldn't be imposed by all the other counties.

MayoAreMagic

CatInABox wrote: »

Splitting Dublin is all pie in the sky stuff, to be honest. You can complain about fairness and what not, but at the end of the day, you'd have to convince the Dublin board themselves to do it, it couldn't be imposed by all the other counties.

I don't know about that. The DCB control what team they put forward, they don't control the gaa. You are hardly suggesting that one CB are capable of holding the GAA to ransom?
Much like Roscommon trying to get the Connacht final in Dr. Hyde Park or mayo trying to get the replay with Kerry in CP instead of limerick a few years back, they can make noises about it, but the gaa calls the tune as regards the All Ireland series. If it were a standoff situation, there is one winner and it isn't the DCB

OldMrBrennan83

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CatInABox

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I don't know about that. The DCB control what team they put forward, they don't control the gaa. You are hardly suggesting that one CB are capable of holding the GAA to ransom?
Much like Roscommon trying to get the Connacht final in Dr. Hyde Park or mayo trying to get the replay with Kerry in CP instead of limerick a few years back, they can make noises about it, but the gaa calls the tune as regards the All Ireland series. If it were a standoff situation, there is one winner and it isn't the DCB

When it comes to something so important, you can safely bet that it'd need support at Dublin County Board level. I could easily see no Dublin team taking part in any competition in protest. I could also see massive protests outside Croke Park any time that the GAA want to have a match there.


Besides, would you really want the GAA to start messing about with counties like that anyway? Once you give them that power, there's no going back.

MayoAreMagic

Patww79 wrote: »

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And yet, when Dublin were not one of these good teams, they were funded heavily, including with taxpayers money, to make them a good team. Indeed, the whole imbalance of payments currently in place is changing what would be the natural order of the thing. So that isn't the reality for the gaa today.

Not that I see that as a bad thing. The NFL give the poorest performers the first picks in the draft the following year. It just needs to be implemented correctly to improve the game, rather than handicap it further as is happening currently in the gaa. What we are doing is akin to giving the superbowl winners the first picks the following year. Now from the outside looking in, we can see that would be idiocy, yet our system is doing just that.

Anyway, I think the point has been made at this stage.

The Lost Sheep

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Some probably go away for a time, then come back. A small number might stay away altogether. Personally, if that were my own county in that position, I wouldn't consider anyone who would do that 'core support' anyway.

The reality is the good of the game has to come first, before Mayo fans or Dublin fans or anyone else. In 20 years I have no doubt people would look back on one of the best periods of football that has ever been and asked why we didn't do it 20 years earlier.

Care to show that to be the case with a lot of counties within Gaelic Football. Some sides will always dominate.
You can make changes for "good of the game" but splitting Dublin isnt good for the game.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

This has all, already been addressed.
The average county have one tenth of their resources - 130,000 people. It is the equivalent of putting a lightweight boxer into the heavyweight division and telling him to look inside for his own faults when he cant win.

There will always be differences in resources of sides. Doesnt matter what system is in place some sides will be bigger/stronger/more resourced than others. That's life.

Do you not see that teams choose not to be competitive in the league, because they aren't physically capable of doing both to the level required? Donegal got relegated and cavan got promoted, yet who won the game between the two?
I don't see how the figure is convenient, it is just accurate. So if it convenient because it is right, then fair enough.

The structure of the season suits counties not playing to full extent with it fully completed before the provincial/all ireland starts. It just conveniently suits your argument but thats all it does. Nothing else backs that up.

But they would be getting the same level of investment as they are now. Why would they quit? They might quit if the funding was reduced, which is exactly my point as to why this is the best option.
If you are saying they would quit simply because their county team isn't winning every game by a cricket score any more, then Id suggest you underestimate the youth of your county. Young lads that turn into the likes of McCarthy, Cooper, Rock etc didn't quit when they weren't going great in the 00s. They would in fact have twice the opportunity to play intercounty football as they have currently, another positive for the youth of the county.

Reducing funding for development officers etc for GAA in Dublin is in nobodys interest. The less people playing isnt good for a sport. Dublin wouldnt be getting same level of support for their vast numbers of grassroots players 99% of whom never get within a sniff of a county jersey so what does your proposal actually achieve then?

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

They have no problem with it in the county championship in Kerry... It was in Mayo for a while too but it fell away, more so because there was just too many games involved.
A few wins over big opposition does wonders on the parochialism front.
If smaller counties weren't in favour then they could be allowed to soldier on, as they wouldn't really be affecting anyone else. I wonder if they seen another amalgamation going well would they change their minds though?

You cant compare the club championship in Kerry to this. Not right comparison at all to use.

Jeju

In have heard several times the idea of a senior, intermediate and junior championship, based on current league position. Here is my twist. 10 teams in Senior and Intermediate, then the junior championship splitting the country in two, North and South so Leitrim for example would be playing the likes of Antrim, Sligo, Louth etc. London would be included in this also, flipping between the geographical split each year. The junior championship is based on home and away, senior and Intermediate on home then away. While this competition is running have the provincial championships, head to head, no replays. The provincial winner or runner up from any of the 3 tiers take their place with the top 4 of the Senior Championship leaving 8 quarter finalists. Two go up two go down to senior and 3 down in Intermediate while the top two in junior go up and a playoff between the 2nd placed teams in Junior North and Junior South. I'm agreed this is the harsh bit, the league becomes the championship, so you could have meaningful games from Feburary through to August, and not necessarily every weekend. You also have 3 meaningful All Ireland titles that gaa folk can relate to, and a chance to be both Intermediate Champions, Provincial winners and All Ireland Senior Contenders.

OldMrBrennan83

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