Cymru Lions v Wallabies, 3rd Test Match Thread, Sat July 6, 1100am

irishbucsfan

[Jackass] wrote: »

I don't think Wales have a chance, but having said that, I have a kind of gut feeling of a potential master stroke. Even though I think Gatland has thrown away the tour, the fact that I respect him as a coach so much, I wouldn't be surprised if he made fools of us all, but I'm sticking my neck on the line and saying that he has fu*ked up big time and thrown away the tour on partizan bullsh*t and inability to be original, so has panicked and is trying to salvage it by treating it as a Wales v Oz knock out game....maybe he's playing on the bornze match experience from the Welsh players and giving them a chance to right what they believe is a wrong? Either way, I don't think this is the time or the place.

Oz by more than 10 and Lions made a disgrace of, without winning a tour in 16 years and unlikely to win the next one v NZ, bringing it potentially over 20 years...i.e. potentially on the following Lions tour after NZ, many of the players in the squad will not have had a Lions tour win in their life time.

Nah man, the Schmidt tour of 2017 will put things right!

awec

You know, it's a pretty bad reflection that after the entire tour and going in to the final game Gatland still hasn't a clue what his best team is.

.ak

Gatland can build a squad over a season. He can spot talent and bring it through. But give him the best players in the isles and he's suddenly at sea. He's reverting back to what he knows which in my opinion is a massive black mark against him. The best role he can hope for in the SH is a SXV coaching ticket but no more.

GiftofGab

Am I they only one who agrees with the starting 15 with the exception of no.13??

Here's the changes from last week;
Corbs for Vunipola: No brainer. Mako gave away 6 points in the scrum alone. Crobs is needed for his scrummaging ability.

Hibbard for Youngs: Tight call. Both have been terrible in the lineout. Hibbard got dropped for the 2nd test but Youngs couldn't justify his call up. Hibbard back as apparently he's the better scrummager.

Falatau for Heaslip: Heaslip was ok the first test but terrible 2nd test. I think it's time falatau got his shot. Falatau has been solid all tournament and is a decent ball carrier.

SOB for Warburton: Warburton going off it was between Tipuric or SOB. SOB showing his class in the warm ups. Easy enough call.
Phillips for Youngs: Youngs was terrible 2nd test. Murray has shown an improvement but plays a similar style to Phillips.

Davis for BOD: Done to death. Not going to comment any further on this.

Swiwi.

It's a crying shame we won't get to see these rugby legends go head to head

subfreq

Interesting quote from Gatland over night on his thinking about selection and how the game will pan out.


"By way of example, the Lions coach recalled the time his Wasps side played Leicester in the last game of the regular Premiership season in 2005 at Welford Road, when Tigers legends Martin Johnson and Neil Back were playing their last game for the club.
Leicester won comfortably that day, but a fortnight later "they couldn't bring the same emotion and we put 40 points on them in the Premiership final," Gatland noted.
"It is hard to get yourself completely on edge every week.
"Australia had to be like that last week. You saw that with the reaction of [captain] James Horwill at the end.
"We think emotionally we can improve quite a bit. I would question whether they could do the same.
"Emotionally we will be there on Saturday, which is why we have picked a side that physically we think will dominate them.""

I think he is grossly over playing Australia's emotion. Horwill sure but I didn't think the team were emotionally on edge.

fitz

subfreq wrote: »

Interesting quote from Gatland over night on his thinking about selection and how the game will pan out.


"By way of example, the Lions coach recalled the time his Wasps side played Leicester in the last game of the regular Premiership season in 2005 at Welford Road, when Tigers legends Martin Johnson and Neil Back were playing their last game for the club.
Leicester won comfortably that day, but a fortnight later "they couldn't bring the same emotion and we put 40 points on them in the Premiership final," Gatland noted.
"It is hard to get yourself completely on edge every week.
"Australia had to be like that last week. You saw that with the reaction of [captain] James Horwill at the end.
"We think emotionally we can improve quite a bit. I would question whether they could do the same.
"Emotionally we will be there on Saturday, which is why we have picked a side that physically we think will dominate them.""

I think he is grossly over playing Australia's emotion. Horwill sure but I didn't think the team were emotionally on edge.

Jesus, that's embarrassing stuff.

brandon_flowers

Ignoring the BOD stuff and just looking at the teams as they are

Gatland's plan is obviously stick it up the jumper but to do that the set pieces need to be rock solid and perfectly disciplined in defense.

Hooker & Lineout:
Advantage Wallabies
Hibbard has been OK at lineout time according to the stats but he cracked when the pressure was on last time and if you can't keep possession at the lineout then we are not going very far. His throwing reminds me of Steve Thompson which is obviously not a good thing.
On the other side Stephen Moore missed only one throw out of 12 in the second test and was excellent in the loose.

Second Rows & Lineout:
No difference either way I would say.

Front rows & Scrum:
Bit of a 50/50 again here in the scrummaging with Corbisero and Hibbard in. Mako gave away 4 penalties in the second test so he gets the chop. In the loose however the big difference is that Mako made 15 tackles in the second test, more than any other player and more than the entire Wallabies front row.

Back Row:
Advantage Wallabies
Purely because George Smith is a breakdown specialist and the Lions do not have one. Considering absolutely every play the Lions will have will involve 1/2 passes and then a breakdown then I think the Lions could be in trouble here. Hopefully Sean O'Brien has a big game though.

Backs in Open Play:
Advantage Wallabies
Will the Lions back three even get the ball? I can't see much other than up and unders from Sexton, crash ball to Roberts or just keeping it in tight with Phillips as a 9th forward. I can't see North and Bowe posing a threat unfortunately. EDIT: I forgot the box kick from Phillips, the most deplorable tactic in rugby.
Wallabies will move the ball and try to get Folau, AAC and Beale involved as much as possible, this is where I think the Lions defense will get stretched. Genia will be running the show.

Kicking:
Advantage Lions, Halfpenny and Sexton are far more solid than Lealiifano, Beale and O'Connor but it will be down to the chances created/penalties conceded.

If there are no tries I think the Lions will win, if there are tries I think the Wallabies will win.

Wallabies 22-15 Lions.

desertcircus

All the talk about getting behind the team obscures something pretty important: for the Lions, the team is all that matters. I'll always cheer Leinster and Ireland, because of who I am and where I'm from, but I don't have the same connection to the Lions, and I doubt anyone does. The only reason we care about the Lions is because Irish players get as good a chance as any to earn a Test jersey. Remove that, and the fans' connection to the Lions is weakened. If Irish players don't get a fair chance, then why would Irish fans support the Lions? Would we automatically cheer for the Barbarians if they had the same lineup?

All that ties us to the Lions is the concept of four nations being combined to create something greater. If you mess with that concept, you undermine the basis for supporting them.

Swan Curry

desertcircus wrote: »

All the talk about getting behind the team obscures something pretty important: for the Lions, the team is all that matters. I'll always cheer Leinster and Ireland, because of who I am and where I'm from, but I don't have the same connection to the Lions, and I doubt anyone does. The only reason we care about the Lions is because Irish players get as good a chance as any to earn a Test jersey. Remove that, and the fans' connection to the Lions is weakened. If Irish players don't get a fair chance, then why would Irish fans support the Lions? Would we automatically cheer for the Barbarians if they had the same lineup?

All that ties us to the Lions is the concept of four nations being combined to create something greater. If you mess with that concept, you undermine the basis for supporting them.

You've hit the nail on the head here.I watch the Lions Tour to see every player get a fair crack of the whip and have their form rewarded,not for the kind of conservatism that would've given Kidney a semi.

Artful_Badger

How does he think this team will dominate the Wallabies given he couldnt dominate them in the other tests ? All those players bar Roberts were available for the last test, so did he choose not to dominate them ?

I think one clear thing from this tour is that Gatland is a full of shít. Every thing he says is waffle. He's picking as close as he can to the Welsh team as he hasnt a clue what else to do to try eek out a win in what should have been a walk over tour.

Buer

GiftofGab wrote: »

Am I they only one who agrees with the starting 15 with the exception of no.13??

Nope. I think they've got the pack right and have a pretty good chance of winning the game. It won't be free flowing rugby and will be based on 3 pointers again but they've a solid chance. It will largely depend on how effective they are at stopping Australia from getting into their rhythm.

shuffol

subfreq wrote: »

Interesting quote from Gatland over night on his thinking about selection and how the game will pan out.


"By way of example, the Lions coach recalled the time his Wasps side played Leicester in the last game of the regular Premiership season in 2005 at Welford Road, when Tigers legends Martin Johnson and Neil Back were playing their last game for the club.
Leicester won comfortably that day, but a fortnight later "they couldn't bring the same emotion and we put 40 points on them in the Premiership final," Gatland noted.
"It is hard to get yourself completely on edge every week.
"Australia had to be like that last week. You saw that with the reaction of [captain] James Horwill at the end.
"We think emotionally we can improve quite a bit. I would question whether they could do the same.
"Emotionally we will be there on Saturday, which is why we have picked a side that physically we think will dominate them.""

I think he is grossly over playing Australia's emotion. Horwill sure but I didn't think the team were emotionally on edge.

Stupid comments like that make it all the more likely they will.

DGRulz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Nah man, the Schmidt tour of 2017 will put things right!

And it all starts in November, when he becomes the coach that lead Ireland to their first win over New Zealand.

.ak

GiftofGab wrote: »

Am I they only one who agrees with the starting 15 with the exception of no.13??

Here's the changes from last week;
Corbs for Vunipola: No brainer. Mako gave away 6 points in the scrum alone. Crobs is needed for his scrummaging ability.

Hibbard for Youngs: Tight call. Both have been terrible in the lineout. Hibbard got dropped for the 2nd test but Youngs couldn't justify his call up. Hibbard back as apparently he's the better scrummager.

Falatau for Heaslip: Heaslip was ok the first test but terrible 2nd test. I think it's time falatau got his shot. Falatau has been solid all tournament and is a decent ball carrier.

SOB for Warburton: Warburton going off it was between Tipuric or SOB. SOB showing his class in the warm ups. Easy enough call.
Phillips for Youngs: Youngs was terrible 2nd test. Murray has shown an improvement but plays a similar style to Phillips.

Davis for BOD: Done to death. Not going to comment any further on this.

No, bar 13, it's very close to what I would've picked. But I don't agree with your reasoning. Heaslip was one of the better forwards in the 2nd test. His work rate around the park was huge. He stepped up in POC's role for hitting rucks and if you watch it back he's hovering around every ruck. It's been a long season for him, and despite was his retractors say he's been one of the best 8's in Europe. It was completely the right call to bring in Faletau who hasn't been as good as Heaslip but won't represent a major step down in quality either. Fresh legs.

Also didn't Youngs always have the 2 jersey, for both tests? Hibbard is being brought in for his scrummaging as far as I can tell.

Hanno83

desertcircus wrote: »

All the talk about getting behind the team obscures something pretty important: for the Lions, the team is all that matters. I'll always cheer Leinster and Ireland, because of who I am and where I'm from, but I don't have the same connection to the Lions, and I doubt anyone does. The only reason we care about the Lions is because Irish players get as good a chance as any to earn a Test jersey. Remove that, and the fans' connection to the Lions is weakened. If Irish players don't get a fair chance, then why would Irish fans support the Lions? Would we automatically cheer for the Barbarians if they had the same lineup?

All that ties us to the Lions is the concept of four nations being combined to create something greater. If you mess with that concept, you undermine the basis for supporting them.

This post sums up how I feel about the Lions. I have an emotional attachment or territorial loyalty to Leinster and Ireland. However, my connection to the Lions dimishes if there is not a sufficient Irish representation.

Whilst people might not agree with this approach, I've decided to support the Wallabies on Saturday. The thought of Gatland winning a Lions Series is one that I find galling.

SlickRic

yup, Gatland really is overthinking this.

it's just a bad excuse for not knowing what his best Lions team is. that's all.

"i'm rotating because last week will have emotionally taken a lot out of those involved in it"

bullshít if i've ever heard it.

.ak

Sure if anything BOD will want this win more than anyone else. If we're talking emotions, then surely BOD was the prime person to have in the squad.

shaungil

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Using the same team and tactics has worked once for Gatland in 6 attempts.

Rightwing

It's still a 50-50 game. The bookies have aussies slight favs @ -1

Garseys

As I've called them in every match so far. The Aussies to win and quite comfortably aswell...

subfreq

The only way I could have seen some insane logic to this game being 'Warrenball' and BOD coming out would have been if Manu and Roberts started to give the physicality theory a go for 60 and then bring in BOD off the bench to see the game out and add guile and a different point of attack.

In fact closing out the game with both Farrell and BOD would have been quite brilliant.

Grimebox

I was more excited for the first game against the Barbarians than I am for this. I am verging towards joining the "What is the point of the Lions" camp. The two tests have been boring so far

pickarooney

I'm jaded by the whole thing by now. Still couldn't give a damn who wins on Saturday and the cahnces of it being a good game are getting slimmer.

Swiwi.

matthew8 wrote: »

Gatland's selection has overshadowed a fairly big call by Deans to first of all send Hooper to the bench and drop Gill from the team after making great impressions last week for George Smith, and also having only 2 backs on the bench, both of which are only good at 1 position. If AAC goes down for Australia, there will be a hell of a lot of shuffling.

Yip

Genia => Phipps
JOC => Beale to 10, Mogg to 15
CL => Beale to 10, JOC to 12, Mogg to 15, HP to kick goals
AAC => Beale to 10, JOC to 12, CL to 13, Mogg to 15
Back three => Mogg

2 injuries become problematic.

Reckon he is banking on making no back subs unless forced to by injury.

I agree that the forwards will be the winning or losing of the game but its still a gamble.

elguapo

Leaving the BOD issue aside, I think the biggest disappointment for me, and I would guess for many people, is how limited the Lions game plan is under Gatland. I realise the Lions want to win a series, but it is pretty depressing to have to watch them play this way. The 2001 and 2009 teams were, to me, what the Lions should be about. A team who actually had a go and played some attacking rugby.

The ethos on this tour seems to be "Scrum the **** out of them, and when we get the ball, kick the f**king thing as far as you can down the field; we'll defend from there." Even the restarts are just belted long every time. Why not go a little shorter and let Bowe, North or one of the locks challenge for possession in the opposition half?

I hope they win on Saturday, but god I wish they showed a little more ambition.

.ak

elguapo wrote: »

Leaving the BOD issue aside, I think the biggest disappointment for me, and I would guess for many people, is how limited the Lions game plan is under Gatland. I realise the Lions want to win a series, but it is pretty depressing to have to watch them play this way. The 2001 and 2009 teams were, to me, what the Lions should be about. A team who actually had a go and played some attacking rugby.

The ethos on this tour seems to be "Scrum the **** out of them, and when we get the ball, kick the f**king as far as you can down the field; we'll defend from there." Even the restarts are just belted long every time. Why not go a little shorter and let Bowe, North or one of the locks challenge for possession in the opposition half?

I hope they win on Saturday, but god I wish they showed a little more ambition.

Yeah. Even if they played like Wales it'd be exciting.

The idea of a big running pack with good hands and then add in the subtly of BOD, the power of Tuilagi, the smarts of Bowe, it should spell for an exciting brand of rugby.

Gatland and co chickened out. They tried some very silky back moves in the warm up games and tore sides apart. However the error count was obvious and they decided not to play any rugby for the tests.

Defo the most disappointing thing for me too. The BOD thing I can live with. He got two caps and sure he's lucky to considering he's held together with glue.

captbarnacles

desertcircus wrote: »

All the talk about getting behind the team obscures something pretty important: for the Lions, the team is all that matters. I'll always cheer Leinster and Ireland, because of who I am and where I'm from, but I don't have the same connection to the Lions, and I doubt anyone does. The only reason we care about the Lions is because Irish players get as good a chance as any to earn a Test jersey. Remove that, and the fans' connection to the Lions is weakened. If Irish players don't get a fair chance, then why would Irish fans support the Lions? Would we automatically cheer for the Barbarians if they had the same lineup?

All that ties us to the Lions is the concept of four nations being combined to create something greater. If you mess with that concept, you undermine the basis for supporting them.

It's not just that for me. European rugby is perceived as inferior by some in the ANZAC countries. I want to see the best players we have show their skills so style of game play is important and a good mix of nationalities on the team too.

sydthebeat

to me the most damning issue coming into this game is the following:

Australia: 1 team change, 1 bench change = 2 changes

Lions: 7 team changes (1 positional), 3 bench changes = 10 changes


I dont see how the lions can possibly expect to have any continuity of play with such widespread changes.
Davies and Roberts havent played against the aussies together in this series.
This is the first time this back row has ever played together as a unit.

There is the culimination of 1 national captaincy in the lions squad.. as far back as 2009 at that.

Australia have a mammoth player in george smith coming back in for his swan song. He will pull his team together and demand superhuman effort from them. I cannot see any comparable player on the lions team.

With all this in my head, as much as me heart yearns for a lions victory, for POC and BOD.. i simply cannot see any way the lions can win.

crybaby

Hanno83 wrote: »

This post sums up how I feel about the Lions. I have an emotional attachment or territorial loyalty to Leinster and Ireland. However, my connection to the Lions dimishes if there is not a sufficient Irish representation.

Whilst people might not agree with this approach, I've decided to support the Wallabies on Saturday. The thought of Gatland winning a Lions Series is one that I find galling.

so your supporting 23 Aussies against 4 Irish men?

makes perfect sense